98 replies to this topic

[Genrewriter]

You mean The Avengers wasn't a heavenly experience for you?

Actrually, I agree more or less with your point. The Rock was fun, though.

[Turn]

Originally posted by Tarl_Cabot
Sean's Bond isn't overrated but his appeal post Bond certainly is. He has become a tired, sleepwalking star. Look at the trailors for LXG. It's Sean doing his same old Shhhhhtick. I like Sean the best (although Tim Dalton is better in certain respects) but his career since The Hunt for Red October has been mainly a waste of time.

I've got to disagree. His role choices haven't been real adventurous, no, but he's at a point where no matter what role he takes, he's Sean Connery, an established star, and that's why people like him.

There aren't too many versatile roles available to actors his age, and many of his contemporaries are in the same position, basically. If you want to see somebody spinning his wheels, look at Robert De Niro these days. He's always either a cop, gangster or shifty guy most of the time.

Connery's typical role these days is the wisened, yet crotchety old mentor who is still active. But he has played down in things such as Playing By Heart, where he was a common husband. But he's better known for the action roles. How many 70-year-olds have done such roles in the past?

[iain]

Gene Hackmans pretty good.

[Turn]

True. Hackman is good, along with Robert Duvall and Michael Caine. But Hackman also gets a lot of those tough guy mentor roles also, so his screen persona is pretty much established also.

[iain]

I think that one of the ways that the Bond films have hurt Connery is that he never gets to play the villain. Well not much anyway. Hackman has had some great bad guy roles like Unforgiven.

Even though the Connery Bonds are thirty years old, I think people still see him as the hero.

[Turn]

For the most part he's played heroes. But to look at his career broadly, he's also played some flawed anti-hero types: Marnie, Woman of Straw, A Fine Madness, The Anderson Tapes, Zardoz, The Wind and the Lion, The Man Who Would Be King, Family Business.

You may end up rooting for him in these, but the guys he plays are not exactly heroes in the classic sense that Harrison Ford or somebody plays. Then again, some could argue Bond is not exactly a heroic character in many of his actions. Maybe it's safe to say Connery is good at roguish (spelling) type characters.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Tarl_Cabot
Sean's Bond isn't overrated but his appeal post Bond certainly is. He has become a tired, sleepwalking star. Look at the trailors for LXG. It's Sean doing his same old Shhhhhtick. I like Sean the best (although Tim Dalton is better in certain respects) but his career since The Hunt for Red October has been mainly a waste of time.

I agree entirely, his last several films have really been a total waste. I loved him as Indiana Jones' father, in The Man Who Would Be King, The Hunt for Red October, The Wind and the Lion (that's a big favorite of mine) but..........The Avengers??? LXG??? And that film with Catherine Zeta-Jones (I forget the title)??? Ugh! Both he and Harrison Ford have done nothing of any real merit in these last years of their careers.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

i can see him being a tad bit over rated

[ChandlerBing]

I like Connery. Sorry you folks don't. I loved Entrapment. I loved Playing By Heart. Did you mention Finding Forrester? I never saw LXG. I didn't want to see it because some chicken**** villain kills Connery in the end. Since you fellas don't like Connery, I don't think I spoiled anything for you. If I can be of any further assistance, don't forget to dial 9 before calling out.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner

Yup - you read that right: I think Sean Connery is tremendously overrated as Bond, even if he is pretty great. Not so much among hardcore Bond fans like us, but by the general movie-going public.

It's frustrating to me that people are touting decades-old opinions to put Connery on top of Moore as the quintessential James Bond. Especially considering he took as many jokey liberties with Fleming's character as Moore ever did. Thinking about DAF and NSNA, I fail to see much of a difference between Moore's take on the character and Connery's.

At least Moore maintained an enthusiasm for the role to the very end. In fact, he's still enthusiastic about it to this day, while Connery does everything in his power to distance himself from the role that made him a star. It seems that a good portion of Connery's days punching the clock at EON were spent whining about money and feeding a deepening megalomania.  

Personally, I think Connery played Fleming's Bond letter-perfect one-and-a-half times: in Dr. No and most of FRWL. Meanwhile, Moore captured the role perfectly in FYEO and much of TMWTGG (just because the movie stank didn't mean his performance reeked too). So, if they're neck-and-neck, why is Connery lauded and Moore bashed?  

I'd argue that Connery isn't just great in DR. NO and FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE. He's terrific in GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL, too.

His boredom with the role is evident in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, but he's still pretty darn good during most of that film. As for DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER, he gives a truly awful, lazy performance (and looks absolutely terrible).

The thing is, though, YOLT, DAF and NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN are not the films he's normally judged on, and why should they be? Connery owns the era of classic Bond. He was the guy audiences went wild over at the height of Bondmania in the 1960s, not Moore, Dalton or Brosnan, and certainly not Lazenby.

That was something that was really brought home to me when I saw CATCH ME IF YOU CAN for the first time the other day. Look at those clips of Connery in GOLDFINGER, and see if you can convincingly deny that he was right bang slap in the centre of things when James Bond was truly a global phenomenon and truly cool. Moore was never an icon on remotely the same scale.

Connery overrated? Underrated, if anything.

[Genrewriter]

I agree totally, Loomis. Just as Roger Moore owned the role in the 70's and 80's, Connery was the best man for the job in the erea he appeared in. His first four outings are some of the best in the series with three out of the four popping up on my top ten.

Connery has managed to turn himself from a lead actor to more of a character actor who occasionally gets top billing. He is certainly underrated, look at how long it took to give him an acting award!

[Dr.Carl Mortner]

"That was something that was really brought home to me when I saw CATCH ME IF YOU CAN for the first time the other day. Look at those clips of Connery in GOLDFINGER, and see if you can convincingly deny that he was right bang slap in the centre of things when James Bond was truly a global phenomenon and truly cool. Moore was never an icon on remotely the same scale"

That's the thing that sucks: most of us on here weren't around when Bond was that big. Many of had a completely different first impression of Bond through a different actor. But we're still told over and over again that Connery was the greatest and how much we missed out.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner

That's the thing that sucks: most of us on here weren't around when Bond was that big. Many of had a completely different first impression of Bond through a different actor. But we're still told over and over again that Connery was the greatest and how much we missed out.  

I wasn't around at the time either, and I don't say that Connery was the best Bond actor, because I don't believe there's any such thing. I feel each actor was terrific in his own way, and each made the part his own for a period of time.

However, I do feel that Connery was undeniably the classic James Bond. Bond was never bigger than during the 1960s. It was the biggest pop culture phenomenon of the decade, along with Beatlemania. The 60s Connery Bond films were genuinely revolutionary. THUNDERBALL remains by far the biggest-grossing film of the series. It was the golden age of Bond.

To my mind, saying that Connery is overrated is a little like saying that Fleming is overrated.

[Genrewriter]

True, overrated to me is a baseball player being hailed as Hall of Fame material on the basis of one record setting season. Overrated is calling a team a dynasty after back-to-back championships.

Um, sorry. I've got sports talk in the background.

[Turn]

Originally posted by Genrewriter
True, overrated to me is a baseball player being hailed as Hall of Fame material on the basis of one record setting season.  

Are you talking about a certain St. Louis Cardinal first baseman?

[iain]

He can't be. The gentleman you refer to would have 513 home runs and be a lock for the hall of fame without that season.

[Genrewriter]

No, I was just in an ESPN mood when I was writing it and Mark McGwire is someboady I have always respected, well as soon as he joined the Cards at least.

[Wade]

Let an old man comment on the whole Moore-Connery thing.

Connery, helped in great measure by Terence Young, CREATED the role of Bond. It did not exist before Dr. No. There were no other roles like it, except possibly Cary Grant in North by Northwest. Connery came up with the role from scratch. The jokey asides, the cool handling of women, the ruthlessness ... Connery all the way. Now, Moore was fine as Bond, no doubt about that, but he didn't take the role as seriously as Connery did. Moore was too willing to go for the joke rather than make the role serious -- witness his hesitancy to kick Locque's car off the cliff in FYEO. Connery perfectly balanced the quips with the action. Moore was too light sometimes, while Dalton was WAY too serious. Lazenby might have developed a solid Bond if he'd had another chance. And Brosnan melds Moore's comedic touch with Connery's presence.

But no one will ever top Connery because he created the role. Just as no one would ever make a Trek fan forget Nimoy if someone else was hired to play Spock.

So there.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Loomis
I wasn't around at the time either, and I don't say that Connery was the best Bond actor, because I don't believe there's any such thing. I feel each actor was terrific in his own way, and each made the part his own for a period of time.

I was very young during Connery's tenure but I was first introduced to JB when I was about 9 years old (around 1969) and DN was broadcast on US TV. I became a big fan of Sean as Bond right then, tho I'd already loved him as Darby O'Gill.

However, I do feel that Connery was undeniably the classic James Bond. Bond was never bigger than during the 1960s. It was the biggest pop culture phenomenon of the decade, along with Beatlemania. The 60s Connery Bond films were genuinely revolutionary. THUNDERBALL remains by far the biggest-grossing film of the series. It was the golden age of Bond.
To my mind, saying that Connery is overrated is a little like saying that Fleming is overrated.[/B]

I can't agree with any claim that Connery is overrated as Bond -- he will always be the classic Bond, he created the role together with Terence Young. He will always be THE James Bond to me. Whenever I've picked up an Ian Fleming story to read, it's his face and voice that automatically comes to mind. However, when I watch DAF and YOLT (tho less so with YOLT), I clearly feel that I'm watching Connery going thru the motions and so that affects my interest in his *presence* as JB as I watch those films. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy him in those films, and I'd rather watch Connery in those two plus NSNA than DAD any day.

However, I do believe that, like Ford, in the last several years he hasn't done anything worthy of his screen presence or talent. A recent article in the UK newspaper The Guardian laments how Harrison Ford seems to be just accepting any script so he can take home his $25 mil while failing to give his audience that old Harrison magic. I think the same is the case with Connery's recent choices. Still, I'd rather watch Connery doing absolute drek than Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt or Bruce Willis doing their anything at all.

[Tarl_Cabot]

Harrison Ford have done nothing of any real merit in these last years of their careers."Jaelle

Ford is pathetic! Now he wants to do Indy 4? He has squandered a potentially great career whith so many awful choices. I really don't want to see a 63 yr old Indy hanging from a cliff or whatever...

[Harmsway]

Sean Connery is a great James Bond, and is certainly not overrated. Sure, Roger Moore is underrated, as is Dalton and Lazenby, but to say Sean is overrated? No way. He determined who Bond was and is. Not that Moore isn't a good Bond, he sure is and certainly made Bond his own (quite a triumph following Connery's reign). But it's all a matter of preference.

Oh yeah, I loved Entrapment and Finding Forrester. Connery has had quite a successful film career in both terms of acting and popular films. Maybe not as of late, considering his post Hunt for Red October career, but I wouldn't say he's been terrible. Heck, the man's a cultural icon. You just can't beat that accent!

[ChandlerBing]

Go ahead and knock Ford all you want, but I guarantee more people know Ford in a better light than your man Dalton. Ford, on his bad days, still kicks Dalton's *** 6 ways to Sunday.

BTW, I'll be in line for Indy 4.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
Go ahead and knock Ford all you want, but I guarantee more people know Ford in a better light than your man Dalton.  Ford, on his bad days, still kicks Dalton's *** 6 ways to Sunday.  

BTW, I'll be in line for Indy 4.

Since Ford has the money and cache to pick and choose and *make* his own work now, he has FAR FAR FAR more opportunity to do stuff like work on small, independent, serious films the way Pierce has done. We are talking about highly successful stars like Connery and Ford, not character actors or stage actors on the level of Tim Roth, for example---who is an exceptional actor but chooses to concentrate on small films while occasionally doing big blockbusters just for the money. Much as Dalton does.

By the way, I have to backtrack a little on Connery -- I'd forgotten about Finding Forrester. That was a nice change from Connery's recent choices. And I too will be one of the first to see Indy 4 -- I just don't have high expectations. I think Indy's time has come and gone, like the Terminator.

And I have to wonder about someone with such a personal fixation on the masculinity of a particular actor as you obviously have. Projection? Envy? A mad crush? A Freudian would have a field day.

[ChandlerBing]

Jaelle, now you're getting nasty. I don't like Dalton, period. There are certain actors you don't like, like Ford. If you want to carry on personal attacks on me, fine, but I think the mods are bound to get involved, so you might want to back off.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
Go ahead and knock Ford all you want, but I guarantee more people know Ford in a better light than your man Dalton.  Ford, on his bad days, still kicks Dalton's *** 6 ways to Sunday.  

BTW, I'll be in line for Indy 4.

Totally agree with you here Chandler...What has Dalton done lately??

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
Jaelle, now you're getting nasty.  I don't like Dalton, period.  There are certain actors you don't like, like Ford.  If you want to carry on personal attacks on me, fine, but I think the mods are bound to get involved, so you might want to back off.

Ok, I'll back off. There are a lot of people who don't like Dalton. There are a lot of people who don't like Moore or Brosnan. But I don't see those same people spewing vicious personal sexual insults and attacks on any of those actors the way you do. You're the one who brought in the comparison with Dalton, which no one was doing. All we were talking about was Connery's recent career and whether or not he's "overrated" as Bond. You opened the door, and I foolishly walked right into it.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

Totally agree with you here Chandler...What has Dalton done lately??

Nothing, just kept on acting and earning a living. Moore didn't exactly have a string of great post-Bond roles, did he? Let's see: BULLSEYE!, Jean-Claude Van Damme's THE QUEST, a voice-only cameo in THE SAINT.... oh, and let's not forget the classic SPICE WORLD.

[Dunph]

General note: Please try and debate without smothering other people's opinions or getting personal please, it's cooled down a lot in here but this is just a friendly reminder just in case.

Connery can't be overrated, he'sh a cultural icon. A shtalwart of the film indushtry.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Loomis
Nothing, just kept on acting and earning a living. Moore didn't exactly have a string of great post-Bond roles, did he? Let's see: BULLSEYE!, Jean-Claude Van Damme's THE QUEST, a voice-only cameo in THE SAINT.... oh, and let's not forget the classic SPICE WORLD.

Good examples all, Loomis.

It's interesting how so many people think that just because they haven't heard of something, then it hasn't happened.

Dalton has done exactly what he prefers doing: small independent films with occasional forays into big-money making stuff that is usually mediocre (like American Outlaws and Made Men with Jim Belushi---tho he's fantastic in the latter as a corrupt Oklahoma sheriff). He's done two excellent films for Showtime for which he got great reviews (and that got various awards at film festivals in Europe and Canada), a beautiful adaptation from CBS of an Edith Wharton novel with Sela Ward, voice-overs, and is busy spending time with his first child.
So because he doesn't command a salary in the millions makes him somehow an inferior human being or something?

What has Tom Cruise done lately? Or Brad Pitt? There are so many incredible actors like Willem Dafoe (who spends most of his time doing stage work here in NY) or Tim Roth or Robert Sean Leonard (who I just saw on Broadway with Vanessa Redgrave last Friday) who are exceptionally talented artists and who hardly command massive audiences but have enormous respect among their peers and within the industry. Ever hear of Paul Scofield? Well say that name to guys like Moore or Brosnan and you'll get an awed whisper of praise in response. Geezus, folks, the world of acting is a very large arena with incredibly talented, respected artists working hard and doing stuff that doesn't get on some suburban neighborhood marquis. Is that how you judge the worth of an artist?

[Dunph]

Amen Jaelle, a point well made!

It is far more important for an actor to make a living, second to that has to be your respect as an actor, if you do not have respect, and constantly sell yourself merely for the money, then either you will be typecast or undervalued, and eventually people will see you as talentless.

Actors generally seek roles that challenge them, and just because Dalton (or any other actor) hasn't picked a mainstream project to work on doesn't neccessarily mean they are failures, fair enough if they continually pick B Movies or Straight-to-TV jobs then one gets the feeling they are trying to break into higher echelons, but I believe as an actor-in-training myself, if I ever break into the industry that it's far more important to have respect than to have tabloid inches. Maybe I'm naive?