68 replies to this topic

[Rich Douglas]

The bond theme was in fact used in the helicopter sequence. It's there, but only just barely.

Rich

[Dunph]

I assume they mean in the typical "Bond sound" mould, though the first part of the riff is there with the timpanis and the synth-organ sound plays part of the bass.

Serra has the irritating habit of repeating cues, but then again Barry did the same thing in The Living Daylights. portions of cues are forgivable, even necessary to tie in the film's themes, but whole cues are just sheer laziness.

[[dark]]

Serra's GoldenEye is a guilty pleasure of mine. The GoldenEye Overture is a fabulous piece of music, as is Run, Shoot & Jump and the second part of Dish out of Water. I also quite enjoy The Experience of Love. Probably because I've seen the film so many times that I've become immune to it.

His love themes are also quite good, and the several missing music cues are also quite good.

But yes, some tracks are disappointing. Ladies First will date like milk left in the sun [indeed it already has], and the first part of Dish out of Water sounds like Serra was just bashing his head on an organ. I'm undecided on his A Pleasant Drive in St. Petersberg, but damn if it doesn't make some funky DVD menu music.

[Kingdom Come]

If u think Ladies First is dated, then what on earth do u suppose Arnold's rehash of the sixties is?
I think his love thems are profound and I'm talking as a collector of Love Themes from whichever composer.

[Rich Douglas]

....speaking of rehashes.

Theres no rehash about it. All that techno in DAD, yup, thats a rehash of the 60's alright. Arnolds themes are incredible in most cases for the bond films, he does VERY complicated motifs in not only his action music but his other cues as well. This is a complexity that really no one can truly understand unless you compose music, or recreate his commercially unreleased themes note for note. Then again, if someone were to take time and actually truly listen to arnolds work instead of bash it all the time, they might be able to understand. Sure, he uses some of barry's themes and motifs (the wah wah brass is a standout example) but it works REALLY well. 90% of Arnolds bond scores are original themes, how you can call it a rehash Ill never know, its crazy. Thats like calling Trevor Jones' score from The League of Extrodinary Gentlemen a rehash of 40's brassy B movie scores. Sure it has the same elements like over the top brass fanfares, but it is no way a rehash, it is something completely new. I think if you actually go back and give Arnolds bond scores a good solid unbiased careful listen you'll see that you're gravely mistaken. So are you saying that every single orchestral score that uses lush orchestration is a rehash of the 60's? Sure sounds like it. Also, if Arnold is doing such a rehash job, what kind of score do you want to hear Kingdom? A droning atmospheric score from tomandandy, a pumping techno score from Paul Okenfold, hell, an "unplugged" acoustic score from Alice in Chains?

Rich

[Kingdom Come]

Rich, if u yourself were to have a more balanced view and stop raising Arnolds work to the heavens u may be able to understand and not get blinded by your obvious love of everything he writes.

You say he does very complicated motifs? Barry never wrote that way. I thought as you've said and others in the past, that he has brought the musical world of Bond back to Barry's style. Arnold's themes are lazy and he writes music that any composer could and does write. Thats not good enough for my world of Bond music - thats not why I started collecting them in the early 70s. They were remarkable scores up until Mr Arnolds' backwards dive. All the composers who stepped in, whilst Barry was unable to compose or not wanting to compose, moved the syle forwards and created dynamism.

The type of score I'd like to hear on a Bond film is one that we have been used to up until Arnold took over. A rich - afraid of nothing score. Full of invention. A score we could NOT find on any CD film score shelf ANYWHERE. A score from a composer like Serra, who re-invents the wheel - just like Barry did all those years ago. Barry didn't copy any1 - he took the bull by the horns and created something we'd never heard of before. I would like to see that happen again. You know when people look back upon [in this case films scores] don't u want them to come to the conclusion that we created yet another approach for our times like they did in the 90's / 80's / 70's / 60's? When any1 will look back in years to come, they can only come to one conclusion and that is - we never created - we went backwards in time and repeated what was done before. They'll ask why? And what shall people like Arnold say?

[gkgyver]

"The type of score I'd like to hear on a Bond film is one that we have been used to up until Arnold took over. A rich - afraid of nothing score. Full of invention. A score we could NOT find on any CD film score shelf ANYWHERE. "

If that's really your definition of a great Bond score, then DAD should be on the list of your favourite Bond scores.

[Rich Douglas]

First Off,
"A More Balanced View"?
If you knew anything about me, you would know that I probably have the most balanced view regaurding film scores of anyone on the board. I have nearly 650 film scores in my collection done by various composers, and I never close myself off from any kind of film score. So as you can imagine, I have a very diverse collection and therefore have an extremely balanced view of music. So my opinion of Arnold is not due to the fact that Im closing myself off from any other possibilities. His music works REALLY well with the on screen action.


Exactly.... now youre contradicting yourself. Barry did not write music that way, his themes were very simple, and incredibly effective. You yourself have just proved my point, Arnold is not rehashing the bond scores of the 60's, the bond scores done by Barry. Barry didnt have anything to go by, true. BUT he did set the tone of the bond films, that tone works so well that its exactly what 90% of us fans and the producers wanted to hear in the new films. Now, Im not saying Arnold is rehashing music (except for the love themes of course , which are a blatant homage to barry), because his action themes are simply wonderful. All Im saying is that Arnold has got the vibe that Barry started musically in the 60's, his music is NOT a rehash. If something works, then do it.. which is exactly what the producers are thinking. Think about it, what if John Williams was replaced by Eric Serra on Star Wars Episode III?? Same damn thing, the vibe wouldnt be there, sure... Serra would create something completely new, but it certainly wouldnt fit the film at all. You contradicted yourself again when you said
"The type of score I'd like to hear on a Bond film is one that we have been used to up until Arnold took over", so you yourself want an exact rehash of Barry's work it sounds like. Now Im very curious, if youre so diversified and balanced when it comes to film music, name a composer that could pull of what it is your asking, something that has never been done before which is almost impossible when it comes to music, everything has pretty much been tried. Also, name a film score (any score) that would be the vibe youre looking for Kingdom.

Rich

[Dunph]

originally posted by Rich Douglas:
If you knew anything about me, you would know that I probably have the most balanced view regaurding film scores of anyone on the board.

Steady on there, old chap.

originally posted by Kingdom Come:
if u yourself were to have a more balanced view and stop raising Arnolds work to the heavens u may be able to understand and not get blinded by your obvious love of everything he writes.  

I know you are but what are we then? KC, you're contradicting yourself over and over again.
You obviously have an affinity for Serra's work, which, I'm not disputing, is interesting, but it's simply not Bond. It's not updating the Bond sound, it's merely convoluting it. The convolution is interesting, but the end result is not what the fans are used to, his sound is dated and as I said above, is interedting to listen to as stand alone pieces, but detracts from the action on-screen.

posted by KC:
[Arnold] has brought the musical world of Bond back to Barry's style.

No, he has brought the music back to the 'Bond sound' that bond music fans love, and contemporarised it with an obvious love and respect for Barry's themes.

posted by KC:
Arnold's themes are lazy and he writes music that any composer could and does write.

Well, by that way of thinking, then using the eight notes of the octave, Serra does the same thing. Just without an orchestra.

posted by KC:
The type of score I'd like to hear on a Bond film is one that we have been used to up until Arnold took over. A rich - afraid of nothing score.

Then, as gkgyver noted, what was Die Another Day's score? That was a superb in-your-face afraid of nothing score, with complex cues, contemporary beats, lush strings and sexy brass, all mixed with a regard for Dolby's 5.1 surround and again with an obvious regard for what has gone before Arnold.

I sincerely hope you don't think "Experience Of Love" was afraid of nothing. That was just self indulgent e.

[Rich Douglas]

Sorry Dunph... got caught up in the moment. Bravo, well stated.

[Kingdom Come]

Ehh, this is never ending!! Can we consider some new rules, NO ONE is allowed to mention the A word or the S word?! [Arnold/Serra] and I should think most of us will live happily ever after. I promised myself last year that I wouldn't get caught up in any more of this and here I am!

Rich, when I said "... one we've been used to up until Arnold took over" I meant that all previous scores moved forwards and looked in new directions. I didn't mean one that was a re-harsh of Barry's stuff. By the way Rich, uncanny as it seems, I have almost as many scores as you. You posed two very interesting questions at the end and I have to confess, I have no definate answer for, just now.

A rough shot in the dark - for me, obviously, Serra, came pretty close to an unusual and profound listening experience. Elliot Goldenthal? Howard Shore? Vangelis? [Maybe?] But then it would alienate fans of your taste and would I want to do that? As a producer I mean? Yes... maybe?

To deviate a little - it is not one composers work that I hold highest, but several - The Shining - is the most profound music to any film I have or even hope to hear.

[TonicBH]

I always thought that Serra's GE score falls into "Some of it works, some of it doesn't" category. some music fits, some music doesn't fit it.

FYEO hold a similiar example.

Btw, is there any way I can snag the actual Tank Chase music used in the film, not Serra's rendition on the soundtrack?

[Dunph]

Bond Back In Action 2 is the closest you'll get to it, it's a re-orchestration of the original, which hasn't been released yet. It's a very close rendition though, BH.

[Rich Douglas]

All interesting choices kingdom, I think shore and goldenthal could do wonders with a bond film while keeping the same vibe. They would most likely stray from the formula a bit, but keep both sets of bond music fans (traditional and non traditional) happy. Vangelis is an odd choice for a bond film, although I must admit that I love all of his music, one of my personal favorite composers. Now, not all previous bond scores moved in different directions, they simply followed the times. Take LALD for example, we get a 70's cop score / french connection sound from G. Martin, that was the kind of music most TV shows and films had back then, not saying theyre bad scores, just what the trend was. Another example is the electronics usage is Hamlish's TSWLM score (namely Bond 77) which is a guilty pleasure of mine and Conti's FYEO score (which is a definitive example of the usage of a moog instrument). It was what music sounded like in the tail end of the 70's and early 80's. After that Barry came back and pretty much stayed the same for Octopussy and AVTAK (aside from Snow Job of course with the electric guitar). The only real thing he changed was in '87 when TLD came out, he used subtle electronics to accent the action music. Other than that, I really dont see how he "evolved" the music. To me, it's simply good Barry music and no big breakthrough. More recently, Arnold is doing the same thing, using electronics to follow the swing of things. If a harpsicord was the big instrument these days, hed be using that. By the way man, if you didnt want to get caught up in this, you shouldnt have drawn first blood. Dunph and I are just defending our opinions... thats all.

Tonic - The actual film version of the tank chase done by John Altman is not available sadly. The only version available is Raine's re recording.

Rich

[Kingdom Come]

I cannot remember back far enough, who it was, that first drew blood on this topic.

[Dunph]

No-one 'drew blood' on this topic, Kingdom.

[Kingdom Come]

Tell Rich that!

[Kingdom Come]

Incidently - Nic Raine should become a major composer. Have any of you heard Joel McNeely's re-recording of classic film scores: Out Of Africa for example - his work is brilliant - so like how Barry would have 'done it'! And John Debney's Somewhere In Time, is equally brilliant and as with Out Of Africa, both have extented cues and never before released cues.

[Dunph]

Kingdom, we are simply airing our opinions regarding Serra's score for GoldenEye, no-one is drawing blood, though I have noticed your posts have occasionally strayed from just airing opinions.

Please try and keep any debate civil, cheers.

[Kingdom Come]

I didn't say that any of us drew blood, dearest Rich, had.

[Kingdom Come]

And I am airing my opinions on Goldeneye as well. Please stop trying to provoke me - which you seem to take a sniggering interest in doing. You are helping to bring this site, which I personally love, into disrepute.

Have a read at the recent discussion re: CBN.

[trs007]

I, for one, am also a huge score fan outside of the world of 007, and having already posted on GE on page 1, will not do so again. However, after the 1st screening of TND, and hearing that great score, all I knew was the Bond movies were back where they belonged.

[israeljamesbond]

Kingdom Come...

The first thing Ill say is.. I could have 15,000 soundtracks of movies and if I am not a music composer I cant say a bit of how complex or how much work was taken into the soundtrack. you are no Music composer from what I know, Rich is though, he could have 5 soundtracks and you could have a billion and he will know about music more than you. Anyway Eric Serra's work was total ****, the music was one of the thing that makes me think it is one of the worst bond movies... I could ay easily #15 in my list. In my opinion TND had more style than GE, and it was the one to set the standard for Soundtracks. You say Eric Serra's soundtracks are unique? Of course they are! they have some sounds from hell used in every single piece of music! ALL his soundtracks are the same ****. The only 2 cues saved from this hell are The goldeneye Overture, the clip in which bond arrives in St. Petersburgh and The Tank Drive in St. Petersburgh. I dont even know why I have that soundtrack.. its something I dont listen to, except for Tina Turner's excellent song. I dont know how you can say his themes are lazy.. dont you feel the excitement in them? Dont you get hyper when you listen to something like Hovercraft Chase? Dont you feel like lifting 200 pounds on a bench? Damn.. from what I see you must be listening to this music in a 1950s radio[sarcasm]. I dont think any other composer would make music Arnold's style.. UNLESS they are trying to imitate him! Tell me which Barry soundtrack makes you want to workout and jump through the whole song? None.. those are more like soundtracks to listen when you are going to sleep.. or while you drive to stay relaxed so you dont crash the car. You say Serra reinvented the bond music.. but if you listen to that music without watching the movie.. Would you think its Bond? I never would.. I would say it was some horror film or some drama or suspense thing. Anyway time to Draw the line! Later everyone.

[Dunph]

originally posted by Kingdom Come:
Please stop trying to provoke me - which you seem to take a sniggering interest in doing.

A bit paranoid are we?

Posted by Kingdom Come:
if u yourself were to have a more balanced view and stop raising Arnolds work to the heavens u may be able to understand and not get blinded by your obvious love of everything he writes.  

from "Barry Should Be Hired To Score Bond XXI" thread in Bond21 forum:

Arnold is NOT on the cutting edge of film scores DONT BE STUPID he's a hack - all he does is copy past work for f** sake! Open your lug holes and listen

THAT'S not called "airing your opinions" that's called provoking people.
I apologise profusely for mistaking the fact that Rich mentioned 'drawing blood' first, but you seem to want to make an issue out of who did it, that's why I took note of it. Now, can you be civil please?

[Kingdom Come]

If u scroll back u will see that is was not me but u, who wanted to make an issue of it.

[Kingdom Come]

You are like a Conservative MP who is walking UP a down excelator and determined to show that this is infact the only way to the upper floor!

[Dunph]

Whatever you say KC, just please give it a rest.

[Rich Douglas]

anyway..... back on topic.

So do any of you thank the bond theme should be performed on timpani drums again? I think it could work. I mean, Arnold sort of did it in TND when bond gets onto the stealth boat, but serras had more of a raw feel to it, which i think worked well. But why didnt he follow through and use it on the rest of the score? Did the producers say less bond theme and more original stuff?

Rich

[Dunph]

I'm guessing the producer's heard Serra's past work and just let him do his stuff, unfortunately the avant-garde approach didn't go down to well with the majority of fans who made their opinions clear.

I love the GoldenEye Overture, it's a superb tension filled cue, and I find something strangely alluring with the synthesised brass hits used in the second part. The timpani riff is inspired, and adds to the feeling of tension. It's a kind of prequel to "Pleasant Drive Through St Petersburg", which is the culmination of all the themes he used in the Overture.

[Genrewriter]

I think the Overture works fairly well but the muted Bond theme really takes quite a bit away from it, in my opinion. I would like to hear timpani drums again, that worked when the sound levels were audible enough to the point where you could hear it. Maybe Arnold will use them in the next film, one can dream.