108 replies to this topic

[Turn]

Originally posted by Simon
And would Talisa (ahh) really fall for some el Presidente who was so spectacularly ugly?

Sanchez wasn't exactly a male model. She's evidently attracted to either masculinity (Bond and the guy in the pre-credits) or power (Sanchez and el presidente). She figured she could maintain her lifestyle with him, I guess.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Simon
Since then, it's toughness has fallen in line with the toughness exhibited in Brosnan's movies and I find it is a movie I watch more often than some of the "at the time" better received movies.  Perhaps LTK was a little ahead of its time.

Agreed.

I am reminded of the review in the 007 magazine which basically said the marketing was a washout, Dalton was too serious and forced - his TLD performance was much more relaxed and assured - his hairstyle should have ensured the stylist was shot, and that tellingly, this film was one film too early for Dalton's tenure.  To go into something of this ilk required an audience acceptance of him that, only one film in, was yet to be established.  I agree with this.

Thank you, YES. Out of all the explanations I have yet heard to explain LTK's weaknesses, this one stands as #1 for me as the most on-target. They went overboard with focusing on Dalton's harder approach. They should've eased into it. I've always wondered if there were scenes on the cutting room floor from LTK that showed Dalton in a softer light. In one of the Bondage magazines there's an interview with him in which he says that certain reaction shots and pauses and brief lines were cut out of TLD that he wished could've survived the editing process.

Having said that, however, I've also read reviewers say how he was a bit stiff in TLD and got more comfortable in LTK (which I don't agree with) so there you go.

Aside from this, zencat's list of 10 right and wrongs were all noted and agreed with - I see the bald chap with the bottle every time too - why didn't they shoot him along with the stylist?

I'm totally blanking out on this guy---gotta go and re-watch!

And would Talisa (ahh) really fall for some el Presidente who was so spectacularly ugly?

She wouldn't fall for him but she might be attracted to being close to the power and status he'd give her. Lupe, I'm sure, found a way to take good advantage of what the president could give her while finding time for dalliances with younger, handsome men. Probably had the president wrapped around her seductive little finger. He wasn't especially bright after all.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Jaelle

 I certainly understand your response here.  MY counterpart to this would be that scene where Tim is shirtless in Sanchez's mansion!!!  You wouldn't want to see me when I watch this scene.  It ain't pretty.  Put my daughter and her friend there with me in the same room, and it's a circus.  

You know, I'm really pleased to read that. Why? Well, I've read a lot of comments from members of this site over the past few months (mostly male members, as a matter of fact) to the effect that Dalton was unspeakably ugly and totally unattractive to women. I guess I'm always happy to read anything that goes against the herd instinct on Dalton.

Originally posted by Jaelle

On another website (I can't find it right now) there's also mention of a scene I so wish they'd kept in the film.  It shows Felix in his hospital room overhearing Bond make some nasty quip about having killed Sanchez, or about his planning to do so, and Felix quietly whispers to himself "Thank you, James, thank you."  Or something like that.  I'll keep searching for the site where I saw this.  The film *desperately* needed something like this.

That would have been great. It would also have been nice if they'd kept the scene (in the March 4th, 1988 revised treatment) of Bond in a Florida hotel room, watching CNN and fuming (I can just picture the look of cold rage on Dalton's face).

Originally posted by Jaelle

I love the combination of elegance and tacky decorations in Sanchez's place (the camel, the fish---hysterical!).  

Right. Sanchez is a typical thug who has gotten rich but has no taste.

Originally posted by Simon

And would Talisa (ahh) really fall for some el Presidente who was so spectacularly ugly?

Sure she would, the character is a total gold-digger. And I like the fact that we know, at the end of the film, that the corrupt president has remained in power and that nothing will really change. Sanchez is dead, but there'll be another to take his place at some point.

[Simon]

Loomis, Jaelle and Turn - I hadn't considered the power element as the reason for Lupe's attraction for the President.

With three swift comments to this effect, you are all undoubtedly correct. I am suitably the wiser.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Loomis
You know, I'm really pleased to read that. Why? Well, I've read a lot of comments from members of this site over the past few months (mostly male members, as a matter of fact) to the effect that Dalton was unspeakably ugly and totally unattractive to women. I guess I'm always happy to read anything that goes against the herd instinct on Dalton.

The first time I had EVER heard anyone say this about Dalton was a few months ago when I first started surfing the net on the Bond sites. I'm new to the Bond fan community, not new to being a Dalton fan. I lurked for a long time on the various forums and the first time I read someone say this about him I *stopped* and my eyes bugged out. I had to go back and re-read it. Obviously these people don't know about Tim's long-standing fan base and the response he gets from a lot of women. He practically captured the entire female population of Russia in the early 80s with Jane Eyre. It was one of the first western series shown on Soviet TV and they went crazy for him. Two of the most active websites for him are Russian and their media still covers him. When he settled down with a young Russian model and had his first child with her, it was all over the media there.

I have copies of talk show appearances from the US, Canada and UK that I got thru fans online and you should see the reception he gets. On one appearance Regis and Kathy Lee had to stop the proceedings because fans in the audience were asking if Tim had a webpage and where could they find it. Anyone who's read the new book by David Giammarco called "For Your Eyes Only: Behind the Scenes of the James Bond Films" has read what John Rhys Davies said about what it was like going to RADA with Tim. It's not repeatable here but basically his point is that every time Tim was performing, it was like a circus because hundreds of young girls would be clamoring to see him begging him to um...well...you know. On one late night talk show one of the co-hosts (a male) tells him outright: "You're such a handsome man!"

Now, granted he has a "cruelly handsome" face (like Fleming's Bond) that's quite rugged and there are angles and expressions when he looks less than handsome. He's got a rough, hard face. I think it's a face that shows Bond's world-weariness very well. Then there's that amusement park scene in TLD when he says "I get the message" and the camera deliberately closes up on him. In the documentary, they explain that the camera was deliberately distorted for both his and Maryam's faces for dramatic effect. His face is very harsh there and it's deliberate. I've always found it interesting how his face can suddenly turn into something so harsh and scary.

Check out the following links and dare to tell me this man is ugly. If you still think so, then I know a good optometrist you can go to:

http://www.geocities...ng/Lion_Eng.htm

http://www.geocities...wYorker_Eng.htm


http://www.geocities...Henry/Henry.htm

http://www.geocities...McGowan_LTK.htm

That would have been great. It would also have been nice if they'd kept the scene (in the March 4th, 1988 revised treatment) of Bond in a Florida hotel room, watching CNN and fuming (I can just picture the look of cold rage on Dalton's face).

Yes, I can just imagine it. Interestingly, one of the first things Dalton asked the writers when he got the Bond part was to cut down his lines (you know how many actors would ever make such a request???). His reasoning was that film is a visual medium and more could be done with action, reaction shots and less dialogue. So this hotel scene you mention would've been a great example of this.

Sure she would, the character is a total gold-digger. And I like the fact that we know, at the end of the film, that the corrupt president has remained in power and that nothing will really change. Sanchez is dead, but there'll be another to take his place at some point.

That observation wasn't from me, it was from another poster.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Simon

With three swift comments to this effect, you are all undoubtedly correct.  I am suitably the wiser.

Hey, speaking for myself (and only for myself), I'm a Grade A LICENCE TO KILL obsessive, and that's precisely the kind of "insight" one gets for being one.

I'm glad CBn exists so that I can anonymously express my love-that-dare-not-speak-its-name for the-film-Joe-Public's-long-forgotten-and-didn't-go-to-see-in-the-first-place. It's a love that's considered perverse even on a Bond site like this one, but I thank my fellow members for their tolerance.

[Loomis]

Jaelle,

As a straight male, I'm not sure exactly how much my two cents are worth on this occasion, but here goes: in my book, Dalton was a very handsome guy, and one who became markedly better looking as he aged. I can only assume that those who knock his looks are comparing him to Brosnan, whose Bond they much prefer. I think it's fair to say that Brosnan is much more classically good-looking than Dalton and indeed any of the other Bond actors - or maybe it isn't fair to say that, I don't know. Anyway, I'd suggest that Brosnan's physical charms are more obvious than those of Dalton - to put it another way, Brosnan is much more of a "pretty boy", and a lot of female Bond fans seem to respond more favourably to Brosnan for that reason.

I'm sure you'll find this thread very interesting and amusing, if you haven't already read it: http://forums.comman...highlight=devil

Originally posted by Jaelle

Then there's that amusement park scene in TLD when he says "I get the message" and the camera deliberately closes up on him.  In the documentary, they explain that the camera was deliberately distorted for both his and Maryam's faces for dramatic effect.  His face is very harsh there and it's deliberate.  I've always found it interesting how his face can suddenly turn into something so harsh and scary.  

Actually, I remember watching that scene in TLD a few years back and thinking: "My God, he looks repulsive!" I never realized that it was a deliberate effect that the filmmakers were aiming for.

Originally posted by Jaelle

Yes, I can just imagine it.  Interestingly, one of the first things Dalton asked the writers when he got the Bond part was to cut down his lines (you know how many actors would ever make such a request???).  His reasoning was that film is a visual medium and more could be done with action, reaction shots and less dialogue.  

Really? Shows that the Bond actor often derided as "too theatrical" has a first class understanding of cinema.

[Rohan]

I'm 21, which may not quite be as young as your daughter, but I had essentially never been to the cinema until I was about 16 No kidding. I was the kid who got all the others in the neighbourhood together to play games. I didn't have much time for a medium like film. Too busy reading & playing outdoors. Movies were too "in your face" for me.

I have trouble getting into any film that breaks laws of social or physical reality in any serious way. I'm the kind of person who was imagining all throughout the opening sequence of "The World is Not Enough" just how much **** MI6 would get in for stepping on MI5's toes, not to mention the wanton destruction!

After posting that last night I went home and watched both The Living Daylights and From Russia with Love again (awesome movies)... and it's interesting that I come back here to read, once again, about the awesome "Yes, I got the message..." line. I loved it. He seemed damned brutal there. Certainly not ugly, though. Just damned angry.

You know someting else that was really disturbing about License to Kill? Dario's death scene. I mean, Benicio Del Toro, screaming as a cocaine mulcher absolutely destroys his legs up to - what - his kneecaps to start with? Bond actually tried to help him, too. Blech. Who'd want to live after that? Actually, being maimed seems to be a theme throughout that movie.

It's funny that these over-the-top villains of other Bond movies are such pansies, and a more 'realistic' villain - a drug baron - both directly and indirectly causes horrific damage to so many people. I love it

License to Kill is one of those movies where, had it not been a Bond movie, the good guy would have, I think, died in the end alongside the bad guy. A kind of penance for his viscious revenge.

On a sidenote, I think I need to cut back on the number of commas in each of my paragraphs.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words! Good to find a place to vent my obsession for -real- bond stuff, not "I thought Christmas only comes once a year?" bullcorn.

Originally posted by Jaelle


If you don't mind my asking (and I'll understand if you don't want to answer), how old are you?  The reason I ask is that I'm always interested when I meet young people (esp. *very* young people) who have no problem accepting the older films.  That's for two reasons:  first, that's the way I was when I was a kid; and two, my daughter (who's 15) could've written your post above about LTK word for word.  Which really surprised me, frankly.  Anyway, great post!  

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Loomis


Hey, speaking for myself (and only for myself), I'm a Grade A LICENCE TO KILL obsessive, and that's precisely the kind of "insight" one gets for being one.

I'm glad CBn exists so that I can anonymously express my love-that-dare-not-speak-its-name for the-film-Joe-Public's-long-forgotten-and-didn't-go-to-see-in-the-first-place. It's a love that's considered perverse even on a Bond site like this one, but I thank my fellow members for their tolerance.

Smart man, this Loomis. Great taste too. "love-that-dare-not-speak-its-name"! Ah, the pleasures of being in the minority!!

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Loomis
Jaelle,

As a straight male, I'm not sure exactly how much my two cents are worth on this occasion, but here goes: in my book, Dalton was a very handsome guy, and one who became markedly better looking as he aged.

Like I said, smart man this Loomis.

I can only assume that those who knock his looks are comparing him to Brosnan, whose Bond they much prefer. I think it's fair to say that Brosnan is much more classically good-looking than Dalton and indeed any of the other Bond actors - or maybe it isn't fair to say that, I don't know. Anyway, I'd suggest that Brosnan's physical charms are more obvious than those of Dalton - to put it another way, Brosnan is much more of a "pretty boy", and a lot of female Bond fans seem to respond more favourably to Brosnan for that reason.

Well, let me say that I find ALL the Bonds magnificently beautiful men, I eagerly ogle each one in their films. (Except of course when they don't look very good, like Sean in YOLT and DAF). In the early 80s I loved Pierce in RS and thought he was the finest looking man on TV---except of course when Timothy was on. And the reason is that while I do find men like Pierce quite attractive, I prefer Tim's harder, tougher look. But it's not only just that. It's not just looks. There are some men who are not terribly attractive but whom I am very attracted to as opposed to pretty men like Robert Redford or Tom Cruise or Kevin Costner, none of whom ever did anything for me. Some men just have a lot of charm, sensuality and *intelligence* (very important to me!) that it totally cancels out any failings in their looks. Bogart was like this.

One reviewer of TLD said that his wife described Tim as "feral" and that is a very good description of him. Tim *exudes* profound intelligence and passion---he always looks like there's this roiling volcano going on underneath and you can *see* him thinking and feeling. Tim's Bond lets me *see* him thinking and feeling to a degree not equalled by the others. This is why I tolerate so much of the drek he's done, and I'm not the only one saying this. You're watching this lousy miniseries that he's done, for example, and suddenly he has this incredible dramatic scene where he elevates it into something else entirely---it's the *controlled intensity* of his performance PLUS his very rugged, handsome looks that does it for me. It's not enough to be just handsome like, say, George Clooney. Guys like Cruise et al are blank slates to me---they exude absolutely nothing on screen. The only other actor of the younger generation that comes close for me is Clive Owen, who I think would be a great Bond. There's all this STUFF going on underneath, he's quite feral just like Tim---both of them have the most expressive eyes.

It's true, Pierce is "prettier", tho he's become less so as he's aged, he's become more rugged looking. He's got classically beautiful looks, no doubt of it, and I certainly think he's WAY above the Cruises and Pitts and McConagheys. There's no contest there. But for me, Tim's face has always had more *character* and *distinctness*. Tim's face shows a world of *lived experience* and *intensity.* And of course that VOICE of his just kills me!

I'm sure you'll find this thread very interesting and amusing, if you haven't already read it: http://forums.comman...highlight=devil

Thank you for this, Loomis! This was very interesting reading, wish I'd been around to contribute. It was hilarious to see how the guys fell all over themselves worrying about seeming gay! Women talk about other women's looks all the time, fellas, we don't worry about such things. Strange to see one of the posters, however, actually say that Jane Eyre is not "one of Tim's best." That's bizarre---it's universally recognized as one of his very finest roles, it got huge critical raves in the UK, the US, it's considered by many to be the best version of the novel (excepting the fact that Tim is too handsome for Rochester, but he's got the character down pat!). That series by itself generated so many Tim fan clubs, and his fan mail went thru the roof.

Actually, I remember watching that scene in TLD a few years back and thinking: "My God, he looks repulsive!" I never realized that it was a deliberate effect that the filmmakers were aiming for.

Yes, if you have the TLD dvd, re-watch the documentary. They explain it there how the camera lens was deliberately distorted for that scene, and for both their faces, but esp. Bond's. In an interview with Tim about that scene, he explained how difficult it was to play because he has to change his entire manner with Kara from the gentle romantic way he'd been with her just previously. He has to show how angry he is, he has to show that he's totally shut down his emotions and is now suspicious of her, but he's got to do it carefully and subtly. The camera distortion was part of that.

Anyway, sorry for going on so long about Tim. I'm a newbie and have had very little chance to talk about Tim's Bond films with anyone for a very very long time. So I'm loquacious.

[Jaelle]

Originally posted by Rohan
I'm 21, which may not quite be as young as your daughter, but I had essentially never been to the cinema until I was about 16 No kidding. I was the kid who got all the others in the neighbourhood together to play games. I didn't have much time for a medium like film. Too busy reading & playing outdoors. Movies were too "in your face" for me.

You seriously need to be cloned, you know that don't you??? My daughter Gina needs to meet someone like you! Since you gave your age, it's only fair that I do the same: I'm 43.

After posting that last night I went home and watched both The Living Daylights and From Russia with Love again (awesome movies)...

Interesting, those two (plus OHMSS) are my top favorite Bond films.

and it's interesting that I come back here to read, once again, about the awesome "Yes, I got the message..." line. I loved it. He seemed damned brutal there. Certainly not ugly, though. Just damned angry.

I know, very scary too. That's what I love about Connery and Dalton---they both scare the **** out of me. Mind you, there are moments when the other three definitely prove they're dangerous men. I'm just saying that Connery and Dalton seem *more dangerous* comparatively.

You know someting else that was really disturbing about License to Kill? Dario's death scene. I mean, Benicio Del Toro, screaming as a cocaine mulcher absolutely destroys his legs up to - what - his kneecaps to start with? Bond actually tried to help him, too. Blech. Who'd want to live after that? Actually, being maimed seems to be a theme throughout that movie.

There are two scenes in the film that I still can't look at (I avert my eyes): the scene you mention above and Krest's head exploding. I peek but I can't look at those scenes. They're disturbing, as is Dario's "honeymoooon" line. That one's very disturbing---I have to clamp down my imagination on what happened to Della. Really don't want to think about it. But what you're saying is that the film manages to *get* to you in the gut with these scenes---I think so too.

Oh, and thanks for the kind words! Good to find a place to vent my obsession for -real- bond stuff, not "I thought Christmas only comes once a year?" bullcorn.

LOL! Love your posts!

[Rohan]

Originally posted by Jaelle


You seriously need to be cloned, you know that don't you???  My daughter Gina needs to meet someone like you!    Since you gave your age, it's only fair that I do the same:  I'm 43.

She's probably looking in the wrong places. I've seen enough sci-fi to know that any clones would be evil, so cloing isn't the answer

Interesting, those two (plus OHMSS) are my top favorite Bond films.

I haven't seen OHMSS in years, it was the first bond book I read, and it was awesome. Plus, Lazenby is Aussie, which rocks.

I know, very scary too.  That's what I love about Connery and Dalton---they both scare the **** out of me.  Mind you, there are moments when the other three definitely prove they're dangerous men.  I'm just saying that Connery and Dalton seem *more dangerous* comparatively.

"Dangerous" moments:

Connery: Dr No, "You've had your six."

Moore: Man with the Golden Gun, "If he found out about this little conversation, then he couldn't trust you, could he? Then he might have to use one of those little golden bullets on you, and that is a shame because they're very expensive." - that or the arm-twisting scene before.

Brosnan: Closest to "dangerous" would be him killing Electra, and even that seemed kinda wimpy. Sorry, the guy just doesn't intimidate. Too designer-stubble like. Not to say he isn't good... just... not a believable assassin. Or is it? Come one, somebody else help me here... HAS he done anything creepy and assassin-like that I'm forgetting?

Dalton: Damn near everything he does without smiling. However, the best moment including "the message" is from The Living Daylights, when Pushkin sneakily hits the alarm on his watch, calling for his guard. Bond slams him very hard, and then, thinking quickly and on his feet, rips the girl's top off so she's half naked and leaves her standing there to distract the guard. He then knocks the guard out. Love it. No being nice to the girl here, innocent or not.

There are two scenes in the film that I still can't look at (I avert my eyes):  the scene you mention above and Krest's head exploding.  I peek but I can't look at those scenes.  They're disturbing, as is Dario's "honeymoooon" line.  That one's very disturbing---I have to clamp down my imagination on what happened to Della.  Really don't want to think about it.  But what you're saying is that the film manages to *get* to you in the gut with these scenes---I think so too.

I can handle gore, but what happened to Felix was disgusting. Bond's reaction to finding them, his shudder of disgust... that was perfect. Absolutely perfect.

LOL!    Love your posts!

Thanks again

[Von Hammerstein]

What went wrong? Well it stopped being Bond movie right after the gunbarrel sequence. The villian was horribly mundane and unispired, the very idea of Bond bothering with a drug lord, even if he had maimed Leiter, but then again Bond wasn't in this film, it was Dirty Harry/ John McClane with a British accent. And the villian's plot. Blofeld would scream at him: "You call that a plot? That's how you're going to bring the world to it's knees by smuggling cocaine in gasoline tankers?" Sorry but it was realy shame to Dalton go out on that one. He showed real potential in TLD, he sould have stayed on for GE and TND.

[Rohan]

Yeah see, from that perspective, I can see where Von Hammerstein is coming from. Me, I prefer realism, so my idea of the perfect Bond is much further from what is generally considered to be 'traditional bond'.

To each, his own.

[Kingdom Come]

Sorry my little 'stay at homes' but I haven't read all these posts but here are some of my comments on what went wrong with LTK.
I remeber being embarassed when I was watching it in the cinema - that usually only used to happen during Binder's sometimes TERRIBLE titles. China fell through and Key West was not much an improvement. Aelec Mills was a mistake althoughit does contain some terrific lighting/camera in Sanhez's home. Glen should have finished after the high of TLD. The pre-title was a STAGGERING disappointment. Binder's titles should have eben re-commissioned. If you look at what Klineman did with the visuals for the song - THEY should have been the titles. The whole film as a t.v. film feel and look to it and not helped by some very obviously rushed editing towards the begining of the film. The screenplay was poor and did not have any sense of wonder we had come to expect. I disagree with zencat re Robert Davi - he was terrible - unconvincing and played it in a very melodramatic way. The underwater stuff was even worse than Thunderball. Why the films title was Licence To Kill - when this was the only time Bond did NOT have a Licenece nfact I really can't think of anything apart from the Tanker chase that really impresses me.

[Desslar]

I have to agree with the previous post, this often did resemble a TV film. It simply didn't have a Bond-sized budget, or the skill to make it look Bond-sized anyway. Shooting exclusively in North America was boring as could be, the action was quite restrained, the evil scheme was bland, and Dalton's hairline was rapidly disappearing.

I remember going to see LTK in the theater and being surprised to hear a song play as we waited for the previews to begin (now it happens often, but it seemed very unusual at the time). Just as I was thinking "What is this horrible sappy muzak ****?" the song reached the "License to Kill" chorus, and my jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe that easy listening garbage was supposed to be Bond's theme.

Another problem was the failure to exploit Bond's going rogue (this mistake also happens in DAD). Here was an opportunity for some tense scenes with Bond possibly dueling with other 00 agents trying to apprehend him, but nothing much happens.

The truck stunt at the end was pretty cool, but that's about it for this film. Oh, and the short-haired chick isn't bad.

[Kingdom Come]

It did have a great song - one of the best in my opinion [very Bond like] and a great rendering of the James Bond Gun barrel opening.

[ChandlerBing]

Hmmm....good things about License To Kill...

It was Dalton's last.
James Bond Will Return
Pineapple Face Robert Davi Got Turned Into Flambe' Surprise

[Tarl_Cabot]

"I remember going to see LTK in the theater and being surprised to hear a song play as we waited for the previews to begin (now it happens often, but it seemed very unusual at the time). Just as I was thinking "What is this horrible sappy muzak ****?" the song reached the "License to Kill" chorus, and my jaw hit the floor. I couldn't believe that easy listening garbage was supposed to be Bond's theme. "

Interesting. The theater I saw LTK in played that song before the movie too! I liked that song, btw. I like it a lot more than any of the PB era songs. NONE of his 4 films have a decent song. They are all terrible.'Goldeneye' is my least favorite.