388 replies to this topic

[Surrie]

I don't think they should forget SPECTRE (the movie) and move onto something different. EON typically too quickly move onto something as soon as the critics don't praise an idea. They have made the decision to re-introduce the Spectre organisation and Blofeld so they should develop this and see it through. Yes, they probably shouldn't have included the foster brother story but they have and they need to move on from that, but not by pretending it never existed! If EON have secured Craig for at least one more installment then I feel they should include SPECTRE again and demonstrate the true menace of this organisation - make people really fear Blofeld.

[tdalton]

Any attempt that they make to portray Blofeld as a really menacing character will, at this point, be a bit in vain.  By tying him to Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, and Skyfall, they've rendered him somewhat impotent in terms of any impact he could have as a major villain.  The scope of the plot of Casino Royale is considerably small and narrow in its focus.  

 

I've always been one to defend the plot of Quantum of Solace, as the stealing of an entire nation's water supply is a more terrifying plot than most of the villainous plots in the franchise, but it is also narrow in its focus.  Skyfall is about one man trying to kill his mother figure.  By portraying Blofeld as the grand architect of all of this, it either limits the reach that Blofeld has on a global level, as he's not the big bad that the leader of SPECTRE should be, or it limits the scope of what these new Bond films have been.  If Blofeld has been doing bigger, more vicious things off screen while Bond has been focused on gambling to bankrupt a banker and trying to save his boss from a disgruntled former employee, then that would suggest that someone else has been assigned to deal with the messes that Blofeld has been causing off screen while Bond deals with smaller affairs.  

 

As others have already stated, they've really painted themselves into a corner with what they've done in Spectre.  While standing on its own it's a perfectly serviceable and enjoyable film, but when taken in the context of Craig's entire tenure, it not only paints them into a corner with regards to where they can go from here in this new continuity-obsessed Bond franchise, but it also does some damage to the previous and, quite frankly, better films that precede it.

[Surrie]

While standing on its own it's a perfectly serviceable and enjoyable film, but when taken in the context of Craig's entire tenure, it not only paints them into a corner with regards to where they can go from here in this new continuity-obsessed Bond franchise, but it also does some damage to the previous and, quite frankly, better films that precede it.

 

I agree whole-heartedly with this comment. However, I can't foresee EON leaving SPECTRE/Blofeld alone after just one film... especially since they have been forced to preclude any mention of SPECTRE at all since Thunderball.  I guess, my only hope is that they commit to what they have started, but to ensure they don't discredit Craig's previous outings anymore than they have already done so. If they could find a way to write themselves out of the corner they are currently in then this would be welcomed with open arms!! IMO SPECTRE was either the start of a very badly thought-out attempt at further continuity in Craig's era or the beginning of returning to stand-alone plots and films. Which one I would prefer is still a grey area for me at the moment. 

[tdalton]

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that they're going to continue on with SPECTRE.  It would be foolish to not continue on with it since they just got the rights to it back from the McClorys.  It's just going to make it that much harder, and potentially impact the quality of the next film in a somewhat negative way if they don't get it just right, to figure out how to move things forward with Bond and Blofeld.  

[Surrie]

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that they're going to continue on with SPECTRE.  It would be foolish to not continue on with it since they just got the rights to it back from the McClorys.  It's just going to make it that much harder, and potentially impact the quality of the next film in a somewhat negative way if they don't get it just right, to figure out how to move things forward with Bond and Blofeld.  

 

Agreed. Could we potentially have Blofeld not really ever have been Oberhauser but changed his appearance to pretend he was and further mess with Bond... nah too farfetched! 

[tdalton]

Or, dare it be said, that "Ernst Stavro Blofeld" is a code-name, given to each successive leader of SPECTRE to keep the myth alive?  

 

I seem to recall having heard a variation on that theory before.  

[Surrie]

The codename could be plausible. Although, I would like Waltz to return if they are going to use Blofeld again. I'd like to see Irma Bunt step into the No.1 position and attempt a breakout of ESB. 

Edited by Surrie, 13 January 2016 - 03:34 PM.

[tdalton]

I'm just kidding about the code-name theory.  Just poking a bit of fun at it, since we've had countless debates about its viability regarding Bond in the past. 

 

I do like the idea of Irma Bunt ascending to No. 1 during Blofeld's incarceration.  Seems a logical direction for them to go.  

[Surrie]

Especially since she was never apprehended/punished or even mentioned again after Tracy's murder... Would love to see her return to the franchise. Kathy Bates spings to mind...

[DaveBond21]

Especially since she was never apprehended/punished or even mentioned again after Tracy's murder... Would love to see her return to the franchise. Kathy Bates spings to mind...

 

Yes she looks the part, but will be 70 years old in 2018.

[glidrose]

I agree whole-heartedly with this comment. However, I can't foresee EON leaving SPECTRE/Blofeld alone after just one film... especially since they have been forced to preclude any mention of SPECTRE at all since Thunderball.

You mean "since OHMSS", surely? I believe that was the (until now) last Bond film to refer to Spectre by name. DAF and FYEO obviously don't.

[SecretAgentFan]

It all depends on whether Craig will return.  If he does it would be pointless not to continue with Blofeld and Spectre after introducing it now.

 

If he doesn´t, however, I think it would be wise to let some time (and films) pass before using Blofeld and Spectre again.

[Surrie]

 

Especially since she was never apprehended/punished or even mentioned again after Tracy's murder... Would love to see her return to the franchise. Kathy Bates spings to mind...

 

Yes she looks the part, but will be 70 years old in 2018.

 

 

Let's hope she remains spritely at that age, plus Irma Bunt wasn't exactly a spring chicken herself!

 

 

I agree whole-heartedly with this comment. However, I can't foresee EON leaving SPECTRE/Blofeld alone after just one film... especially since they have been forced to preclude any mention of SPECTRE at all since Thunderball.

You mean "since OHMSS", surely? I believe that was the (until now) last Bond film to refer to Spectre by name. DAF and FYEO obviously don't.

 

 

My apologies!

 

It all depends on whether Craig will return.  If he does it would be pointless not to continue with Blofeld and Spectre after introducing it now.

 

If he doesn´t, however, I think it would be wise to let some time (and films) pass before using Blofeld and Spectre again.

 

I do agree - but I would like Craig to return and they shouldn't just ignore SPECTRE/Blofeld if he does. 

[sharpshooter]

to forget the movie they just did and come up with something fresh

It seems I'm increasingly becoming apart of the minority in that I liked SPECTRE. It's not perfect but in no way do I see it as a crushing failure.

[Surrie]

 

to forget the movie they just did and come up with something fresh

It seems I'm increasingly becoming apart of the minority in that I liked SPECTRE. It's not perfect but in no way do I see it as a crushing failure.

 

 

The only failure that would exist would be if EON bowed down to the criticisms of some and move on in a way that completely disregards SPECTRE.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

to forget the movie they just did and come up with something fresh

It seems I'm increasingly becoming apart of the minority in that I liked SPECTRE. It's not perfect but in no way do I see it as a crushing failure.

 

 

I would not say "a crushing failure".  It has lots of great scenes.  But for me the sad thing about the film is that it has huge potential and courage and then squanders it and plays it so disappointingly safe.  Especially the much maligned (and justifiedly so) second half and finale.

 

Since exactly that part was already considered problematic by studio executives and Mendes promised that he would fix it - and then he didn´t...   This is what angers me.

 

 

Strangely, this is also proof for a great script not needing lots of time.  In fact, more time did not help the script for SPECTRE.  It only made it more homogenized.

 

The best and most interesting version of the script would have been written if EON had employed one writer and then looked for a fitting director who wanted to do that kind of story.  Unfortunately, as with most big films these days, the process is different: a script is written, then the director is chosen based on his caché, then the director says the script is all wrong (because he wants to be the saving grace), the writers will be changed, the next version of the script still is not good enough (because after all, it must be hard work, right?  And if a director is easily satisfied it must mean he has no standards...)  Then the studio weighs in, thinks about the marketability of the story, has concerns - and the director will say: yes, exactly, those were my concerns as well (just like Mendes did on SPECTRE, by the way), and some changes get made hastily but since the director actually liked the script before it was sent to the studio he will hardly change a lot of it or if he does he will dictate what he thinks must be done.

 

But let´s face it: a great script needs what I call unity of vision.  A group of minds who want to achieve the same goal.  

 

But if many different and contradicting ideas have to come together the process gets drawn out and becomes tedious, tiring and uncreative.

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

[Tiin007]

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 

 

And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 

 

I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 

 

This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 

 

One can dream. 

[Surrie]

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 

 

And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 

 

I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 

 

This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 

 

One can dream. 

 

 

Hope springs eternal. 

[RMc2]

 

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 

 

And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 

 

I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 

 

This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 

 

One can dream. 

 

 

Hope springs eternal. 

 

 

Well, Babs confirmed they won't start working on Bond 25 until the Spring, so I doubt she and MGW will break the habits of a lifetime.

 

 

to forget the movie they just did and come up with something fresh

It seems I'm increasingly becoming apart of the minority in that I liked SPECTRE. It's not perfect but in no way do I see it as a crushing failure.

 

 

The only failure that would exist would be if EON bowed down to the criticisms of some and move on in a way that completely disregards SPECTRE.

 

 

Oh I sincerely hope they don't; and doubt they will, as long as they can bring Craig back. Enough people saw SP to justify constructing a direct sequel.

[Tiin007]

 

 

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 

 

And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 

 

I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 

 

This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 

 

One can dream. 

 

 

Hope springs eternal. 

 

 

Well, Babs confirmed they won't start working on Bond 25 until the Spring, so I doubt she and MGW will break the habits of a lifetime.

 

I realize it is too late for Bond 25, but I'm hoping that in the future they seriously consider this. That way the next Bond actor would have the chance to do more films than Craig, whose tenure consisted of less films than it should have. 

 

If Craig returns in Bond 25 in 2018, then his tenure will be the same length as Moore's in terms of years, yet two films shorter. A real shame. 

[Surrie]

If Craig returns in Bond 25 in 2018, then his tenure will be the same length as Moore's in terms of years, yet two films shorter. A real shame. 

 

 

Hadn't thought of it like that before - that is a real shame... especially as I think Craig is a far superior Bond than Moore ever was. 

[DaveBond21]

 

 

Especially since she was never apprehended/punished or even mentioned again after Tracy's murder... Would love to see her return to the franchise. Kathy Bates spings to mind...

 

Yes she looks the part, but will be 70 years old in 2018.

 

 

Let's hope she remains spritely at that age, plus Irma Bunt wasn't exactly a spring chicken herself!

 

 

True but she was only 52.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SecretAgentFan]

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).

 

If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 

 

And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 

 

I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 

 

This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 

 

One can dream. 

 

 

Again, this is not due to EON unable or unwilling to stick to one vision.  It is the modern blockbuster production-curse of having to spend too much money, therefore having too many people to please who have too much authority on what will actually be filmed.  

 

Even the idea (which I would love) to scale down Bond films to a mid-range budget would not work since the franchise is, well, exactly that: a franchise which is making so much money worldwide that it saves MGM every time and lets studios fight over distributing it.

 

The one clear perspective, of course, is that EON will always develop Bond stories throughout, no matter what they officially say.  Every serious production unit involved in a series will develop material so it can be shown to the studio when it´s time.

 

I´m sure there are concrete plans for the next story in an outline or even treatment form.  But what will be left nobody can know before the new distributor is in place and the main actor is secured.

[Mr_Wint]

 

The real reason why some scripts take so much time to get written lies in the downtime between the writing of the drafts, the waiting periods during which producers, studio executives, directors and actors (and these days marketing people) read the material and try to shove in their ideas (always after making sure to get allies within the system to help their careers).
 
If the core creative personnel (writer, producer, director) are all on the same page, a great script can be written within a few months.  Sadly, most of the time this can only happen with productions that are under the radar of the marketing department.

 
And THIS is why EON should hire screenwriters to pen the next Bond film as early as possible. For the past couple decades at least, it seems as if EON go on a lengthy break after each film is released, only to reconvene late in the spring to bounce story ideas around. But those key months between November and April / May could be put to way better use if a screenwriter was already writing and revising a script. 
 
I understand that post-production is probably extremely hectic on a Bond film, but unless I am mistaken, most of the heavy lifting during that period is being done by the director, editor, composer, etc.... Maybe it would be wise for BB and MGW to sit down with screenwriters at this stage (say, September) and come up with a plan for the next outing. After all, the plot of the current movie will already be locked, and things will get quite busy for BB and MGW come the film's release (promotion, premieres, interviews, etc...). If they can just hire a screenwriter and approve his or her basic plot outline, then they can leave said screenwriter to his or her own devices while they deal with other things. 
 
This seems like the best way to get back to a 2-year schedule for Bond films, and shouldn't hurt the quality of the script, as a completed first draft will be in existence by the March following the current film's release. 
 
One can dream.

 

 
Sounds like a good idea... in theory. But the movie making process is probably not that simple that a few months here and there on the script would make much difference. It takes a director/producer with a vision, exciting locations, good casting and a script tailored to all that to make a good movie. I have always felt that movie fans in general always over-estimate the importance of the script. Probably because they always see the "final product" on screen and then think about "the writing". Besides, EON probably have an archive of unused, half-finished, drafts by now.

[Professor Pi]

If you're looking for good writing, you probably won't find much in a theater.

[SecretAgentFan]

I believe that the best idea for Bond is to scale down its thematic ideas.  

 

This is what made "Casino Royale" work so well: a plot that centered on very basic threats and problems that Bond could interact with believably.

 

The time for world wide-domination plots in Bond films, IMO, has ended - because the competition has multiplied extensively.

 

When I was recently watching the CBS show "Person of Interest" it was once again made very clear that the surveillance plot of SPECTRE is extremely old hat and even dramatized so weakly.  "Person of Interest", a world wide distributed network show, lives on the idea of TWO surveillance systems battling each other, with a shadowy organization behind the evil system, and it offers weekly shootouts and car crashes and stunts.

 

The scene with Blofelds surveillance room?  "Person of Interest" has constant surveillance monitors and a much more sinister looking command central for the bad guys.  The Mi6 car being rammed sideways in the finale?  "Person of Interest" uses that idea almost every second week.  And so on and so on.

 

I´m not saying that SPECTRE stole ideas from a tv show.  I´m saying that SPECTRE seems to be clueless as to what the competition is already up to.  It´s a film that looks and feels old hat, kind of like AVTAK in contrast to "Die Hard", "Indiana Jones" and "Lethal Weapon" in the 80´s.

 

Let´s face it: Bond can only compete by concentrating on its core value - the main character.  And the filmmakers should be aware of all the ideas and tropes that are used and performed by thrillers/action films and tv shows.  I doubt that Sam Mendes would even consider watching "Person of Interest" as it might be beneath him.  But his idea of how SPECTRE should wow viewers is sadly out of touch with the times.

[Guy Haines]

I don't think the "big plots" are over and done with yet. It just depends on how they are done.

Blofeld sitting in his volcano lair - that's not going to happen again. Quite apart from the world having changed, Austin Powers and Dr Evil have finished that off too.

But, you could still have SPECTRE "inaugurating a little war" - emphasis on the word "little" in contrast to trying to trigger WW III. It could still have an interest in regional conflicts, even big scale ones, seeking to profit from supplying both, or all sides.

Or it could still be involved in the ransom demand business - I'd say there's probably more scope for it today than ever before because of the instability in the world, which SPECTRE could easily play upon.

[Dustin]

Incidentally, I've just watched ROGUE NATION, a film that runs circles around SPECTRE in almost every regard, fun, action, pace - you name it. The one thing MI:RN is - relatively speaking - weak upon is character depth and development. And that weakness is mainly due to its own definition; it's an action film that doesn't even try to go deeper, simply because the action doesn't allow for it.

But does anybody really remember - or care even - what was the villain's aim? Money, nothing else. Yes, we've seen some elaborate operations of the bad guy. But the aim wasn't to wreck the world or replace the civilised (after a fashion) Westerner with a better and improved master race.

You could have forged a Bond script from just the same elements as this MI flick used, going deeper into the characters and tune down the action sets to better fit the general Bond flavour. And you wouldn't have needed elaborate angles from outside the tale to give the whole affair complexity. If Blofeld was a dealer in information himself (as told in the books) and had done some of Her Majesty's dirty work - for old-M, new-M or m&m - then you'd already have the conflict mapped out.

[SecretAgentFan]

I mostly hope for fresh ideas - not reheated (and not as well done) concepts that especially the multitude of tv shows have already done to death.

 

What I loved about QOS was how the aim of Quantum - to control the water supply - was original and donewitho ut too much fuss.  SPECTRE spends lots of time with Nine Eyes - but nobody really cares about its consequences.  Maybe the big problem is how Bond deals with Blofeld.  He is easily escaping torture (that is supposed to leave him incapable of anything), gunning down all security guys and blowing up the base with one or two shots - and he just as easily shoots down Blofeld´s helicopter which is conveniently flying very low and slow.

 

I actually would have preferred Blofeld to have escaped unscathed.  That would have given the whole film more weight, with Bond having to decide whether to continue hunting down the enemy who was "the author" of his pain - or to end the cycle and go with Madeleine.  Bond, of course, would have had no choice but leaving Madeleine.

[tdalton]

That may have worked had they built a believable case for Blofeld being the "author" of all Bond's pain, but it's so utterly unbelievable that it's not worth following.  They might have gotten away with it had they limited it to Casino Royaleand Quantum of Solace.  Not sure that they would have gotten away with it, as everyone involved in the writing process botched the entire thing pretty incredibly, but the moment they dragged Skyfall into it, they ruined whatever slim chance there was of it actually working.