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Project X - Bespoke Rolex


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#61 Donovan Grant

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 05:53 PM

This just shows that trying to prove which watch was intended by Fleming based on an illustration in a comic strip is weak at best.

In terms of what Fleming intended for Bond to wear in the novel, well one thing is certain he never called it an "Explorer". I think it was a Rolex Oyster Perpetual on an expanding metal bracelet. That does not discount that Fleming wore a 1016 Explorer, however. When I was a relative noob, I often made the mistake of believing that Fleming was Bond, but over the years I've come to realize that Fleming was just a good writer and used fact and fiction woven together to create a compelling character. Fleming liked the sounds of things as any good writer should. That's why you have Bond using a Berns Martin triple draw holster for an automatic when it was only available for a revolver or the "Red Grant" Girard Perregaux triple date moonphase that did not exist as written until recently. It was not uncommon for Fleming to change things around or concoct things because he liked the way they sounded.

As far as the early Bond movies are concerned, Fleming certainly did not reject the use by the producers of the Submariner because he was on the set of both DN and FRWL. If he had, you might have seen Connery wearing a 1016 Explorer. Thank goodness that never happened.


Actually I think the Explorer would be a more natural choice for Bond than the various Submariners. It's certainly less obtrusive and garish than the diver model and while it's still rugged and reliable it doesn't have an overly sporty or athletic feel about it. For a Rolex it's really most inconspicious. I daresay that would have appealed to Bond and I can see him wearing such a model. Of course, the actual make and model may never really have bothered Fleming as he may just have made the decision when he came to the scene in OHMSS and perhaps didn't much think about further consequences. He'd most likely have been startled to learn people discuss such matters for years and in volumes in the decades after his death.


Precisely my point. As written, Fleming's description allows one to decide which Rolex Bond wore for themselves without someone foisting their view of it on you. You see it as en Explorer. When I was young, when reading Fleming, I often saw Bond as Sean Connery. Let's not forget that writing is an art form, it's not science. Interesting that the producers without benefit of the description chose the Submariner. It's also extremely interesting that Fleming was around for both DN and FRWL. The fact that he was in on the ground floor, as it were, has certain implications, at least for the cinematic Bond and what he wore, does it not?

Edited by Donovan Grant, 08 January 2010 - 01:39 PM.


#62 Trident

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:37 PM

Let's not forget that writing is an art form, it's not science. Interesting that the producers without benefit of the description chose the Submariner. It's also extremely interesting that Fleming was around for both DN and FRWL. The fact that he was in on the ground floor, as it were, has certain implications, at least for the cinematic Bond and what he wore, does it not?


I would think Fleming was tremendously impressed by the whole affair of film business and certainly damn happy to see his creation finally taking off to the screen after roughly ten years of fruitless attempts (apart from the tv CR). I don't know if the term 'development hell' had already been coined by then, but Fleming would certainly have understood what it describes. I don't see him as the kind of author who visits the set and angrily demands all kinds of ludicrous and self-important changes from the crew, the script, the producers.

In many cases it may actually have been the first time for him to see some elements of his novels (apart maybe from the comic adaptions). Bond's sleeveless shirts of the novels, a staple diet of Fleming's own wardrobe, would have given an odd impression on the screen and rightfully were changed for the EON product. Fleming doubtlessly will have noticed that too, yet I don't think he ever objected to such 'free interpretation'.

#63 danslittlefinger

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 06:54 PM

Knowing bugger all about watches, I find reading the posts of this thread fascinating.

I'm impressed at the knowledge out there.

#64 Donovan Grant

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:27 PM

Let's not forget that writing is an art form, it's not science. Interesting that the producers without benefit of the description chose the Submariner. It's also extremely interesting that Fleming was around for both DN and FRWL. The fact that he was in on the ground floor, as it were, has certain implications, at least for the cinematic Bond and what he wore, does it not?


I would think Fleming was tremendously impressed by the whole affair of film business and certainly damn happy to see his creation finally taking off to the screen after roughly ten years of fruitless attempts (apart from the tv CR). I don't know if the term 'development hell' had already been coined by then, but Fleming would certainly have understood what it describes. I don't see him as the kind of author who visits the set and angrily demands all kinds of ludicrous and self-important changes from the crew, the script, the producers.

In many cases it may actually have been the first time for him to see some elements of his novels (apart maybe from the comic adaptions). Bond's sleeveless shirts of the novels, a staple diet of Fleming's own wardrobe, would have given an odd impression on the screen and rightfully were changed for the EON product. Fleming doubtlessly will have noticed that too, yet I don't think he ever objected to such 'free interpretation'.


Point taken. But one thing's certain, Fleming did not object to the Submariner for the cinematic Bond. If he did, I'm sure Fleming would have voiced his concern or contempt for the choice. By all accounts Fleming was, for the most part, happy with the portrayal of his hero on the big screen. If he was unhappy I suspect that by movie 2, FRWL, the watch along with other things might have changed but they did not. It wreaks of imlplied consent to me.

Be that as it may, if you look at the literary Bond's Rolex from the standpoint of art, then it allows for the Explorer. If you look at it from the purely scientific analysis that has been put forth which includes trying to quantify the number of times Fleming mentions the word watch with respect to Bond, then I'm afraid the Explorer is out. How so? The simple scientific test, if you will, is that Fleming never calls Bond's watch an Explorer. Art allows for the Explorer, scientific analysis does not. Art or science, you be the judge.

Edited by Donovan Grant, 05 January 2010 - 08:08 PM.


#65 Trident

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:07 PM

Oh, I wouldn't see it as such a serious matter. I think the point for the Explorer can be made fairly substantiated, as could of course be the point for the Submariner. But of course nobody of us fans can ask Fleming any more and without a definite mention in his notes there will always be room for speculation in one direction or the other. It may well be that the 'Oyster Perpetual' designation was all Fleming ever cared about and didn't delve further into the realm of Rolex' models and makes.

The thing that goes a long way in convincing me of the Explorer idea, apart from the particular model's inconspicious looks, is that in YOLT Fleming mentions the Everest expedition of Hillary. I daresay when buying his own model Fleming was impressed by the legend of the Explorer (that only was to become the 'Explorer' after the successful climbing and return of the expedition) and I think it's only natural to assume he envisioned a similar watch for Bond. But of course this would not necessarily exclude all other models if one's belief tends more to the, say, Air King.

#66 Donovan Grant

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:52 PM

Oh, I wouldn't see it as such a serious matter. I think the point for the Explorer can be made fairly substantiated, as could of course be the point for the Submariner. But of course nobody of us fans can ask Fleming any more and without a definite mention in his notes there will always be room for speculation in one direction or the other. It may well be that the 'Oyster Perpetual' designation was all Fleming ever cared about and didn't delve further into the realm of Rolex' models and makes.

The thing that goes a long way in convincing me of the Explorer idea, apart from the particular model's inconspicious looks, is that in YOLT Fleming mentions the Everest expedition of Hillary. I daresay when buying his own model Fleming was impressed by the legend of the Explorer (that only was to become the 'Explorer' after the successful climbing and return of the expedition) and I think it's only natural to assume he envisioned a similar watch for Bond. But of course this would not necessarily exclude all other models if one's belief tends more to the, say, Air King.


Yet again, you've proved my point. You have speculated that because Fleming mentioned Sir Edmund Hillary in YOLT that he was aware of the watch Hillary wore. I think it probably a fair assessment too. Nevertheless, it's an artfull interpretation unless of course you can, as you said, get into Fleming's dead head. Moreover, whether or not Fleming wore an Explorer or not is purely incidental. What Fleming put on Bond's wrist is what counts. Fleming had Bond's Rolex on an expanding metal bracelet, a bracelet that really did exist as the 7206. Fleming's Rolex did not have this feature. Again I say art allows for the Explorer and pure scintific analysis does not. The scientific proof is in the text. I'm just using the measuring stick that has been put forth. If I were to write an article about Ian Fleming's Rolex Explorer, I might have titled it "Has James Bond's Rolex Been Discovered?" It allows for artfull interpretation. Lastly, for the record, I don't believe Fleming meant the Submariner in his novel either, but he did give implied consent to it on screen.

#67 Trident

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:05 PM

You know what's really funny about all that? I'm not even a watch buff myself and have only a very limited knowledge about the matter. My approach is purely speculative and I wouldn't ever dream of being a tenth an expert as most others here. I can see why the matter is so fascinating but I suspect it won't ever come to a definite end that satisfies all fans. Still, the matter does have a certain allure, doesn't it?

#68 Donovan Grant

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:36 PM

You know what's really funny about all that? I'm not even a watch buff myself and have only a very limited knowledge about the matter. My approach is purely speculative and I wouldn't ever dream of being a tenth an expert as most others here. I can see why the matter is so fascinating but I suspect it won't ever come to a definite end that satisfies all fans. Still, the matter does have a certain allure, doesn't it?


I suspect you are right. I don't think the matter will ever be truely put to rest. I suppose it does have a certain allure to it. Mind you, this is just my artfull interpretation, but I'll bet somwhere Mr. Fleming is getting a big kick out of all this and laughing his hind quarters off at how we pick apart his "schoolboy thrillers". Great fun Trident, great fun!

#69 Dell Deaton

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:46 AM

This Thread has all the earmarks of becoming a serious James Bond watch discussion.

So, when Jim shows up to knock heads, don't say you weren't warned!

B)

#70 Donovan Grant

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:10 PM

I doubt it based upon what has been discussed. Although the discussion has become pretty far afield from Project X Designs.