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Did QoS cause a backlash to the 'realistic' Bond


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#31 Loomis

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:54 PM

Backlash my bumm!


Only if you ask nicely, Hilly. :(

I question whether or not anyone who calls QoS "Flemingesque" has really read much Fleming


I do. And I have. Given my age and the length of time I have been reading - and re-reading - Fleming, it's possible I've read more Fleming than you. Not that that make my opinion any more valid than yours. But as someone who has read a huge amount of Fleming, QoS is one of the very few films to really capture his spirit (particularly the early books).


Would you mind expanding on this, deebmeister? I myself have read everything by Fleming (everything Bond, anyway), and have done so repeatedly.

I do think QUANTUM OF SOLACE (a film I like very much) is Flemingian, or that at any rate it's not un-Flemingian. Does it capture his spirit? Yeah, I guess. But I can't really put my finger on why. Also, what's with the citing of the early books?

Also, one could surely make the claim that every single last Bond movie - even something as outlandish as MOONRAKER - is Flemingian to an extent. What makes QoS different? is, I guess, what I'm trying to nail down.

#32 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 02:56 PM

Backlash my bumm!


Only if you ask nicely, Hilly. :(



Whips and chains, old boy! Whips and chains... :)

Anyhoo...Q0S sold MORE tickets in the US than GoldenEye, Tomorrow Never Dies, TWINE and virtually the same number of tickets as CR. That's some "backlash", whips and chains notwithstanding.

#33 jaguar007

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:46 PM

Craigs hair sucked for QOS, he needs the CR hairdo,


FIrst time I have heard that one.

#34 Judo chop

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:53 PM

I’m in agreement with a number of posters in here; Zencat. SNF. Hilde.

I think there’s been “backlash” only in terms of intensity. Not in total number. As Hilde has sharply pointed out, “people”, on the whole (redundancy intended), seem to like QOS. However, there is a small subset of QOS watchers who fall into the category perfectly described by Zencat.

It’s the tone, man!

Tone, Toni, Tony. They don’t care for the tone of QOS, and they don’t like it… With. A. Passion. For there is no doubt about it; QOS is distinct among the other entries. Just listening to the way Craig talks about it - <paraphrased> “Now we’ve done this. Now we can move on.” – it seems clear to me that QOS was meant to be a one-time-only deal. It was made with the full intention of being a departure, of charting new tonal territories.

And for the record, I completely sympathize with those who don’t accept QOS for its tone. I don’t blame them. It is a fair and reasonable complaint. If one loves Bond for the atmospheric tone he's accustomed to existing in, and that suddenly takes a turn, casualties are expected. And what’s more, it wouldn’t be at all surprising to me if the detractors misspeak when trying to vocalize their own complaints. It seems quite natural to realize that something is up with this Bond and at the same time not quite be able to put a finger on it. ‘Tone’ is an elusive concept (I say that as a victim of its elusiveness), and so disappointed fans look to blame the more tangible elements and reference the supposed ‘lack of Bondian elements’.

This doesn’t apply to every disappointed Bond fan, of course. I’m only thinking in generals. Some people may very well recognize and be fine with the tone, and recognize and be fine with the ‘hidden’ Bondian elements, and still despise QOS for any number of other reasons (annoying editing, dull action, callous disposals of original Fleming characters, negative predispositions towards Arty Farty Forster, etc…)

#35 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:08 PM

Yes but do remember, Quantum is a movie which can't be parodied or comedically ridiculed like many other James Bond movies can/have been.

I suppose these fan's who like the quazi-comedic tone of many past Bonds don't mind Joe Average having a laugh at 007 fans' expense.

#36 Judo chop

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:15 PM

No, they might not mind the parodies. Maybe for them that's all part of the fun?

Or maybe they do. That'd be fair too. Not really sure what 'they' think of the parodies.

#37 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:22 PM

No, they might not mind the parodies. Maybe for them that's all part of the fun?

Or maybe they do. That'd be fair too. Not really sure what 'they' think of the parodies.


I grew up on Connery, right. So I seem to have some form of emotional attachment to James Bond, right. So when I had Joe/Jane average ridiculing Bond movies before Craig came along, I didn't particularly like it.

Now?

Well, Craig topped the list of best action hero of 2008...and he didn't have to wear a cape, cowl, tights or period costume to do it.

That's :(ing fantastic in my books!

#38 MHazard

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:24 PM

I doubt that any "backlash" against QOS has to do with its tone, which is not that different than CR. I think that negative reaction has to do with it being such a disappointing movie in so many ways. I also have to comment on someone suggesting that QOS presents a more Fleming based Bond. I strongly disagree. CR had put us in what I thought was the pleasant place of taking the movie Bond character which had become unrecognizable as Fleming's Bond and bringing him back to his roots. At the end of CR we had a Bond that could be taken in a early Fleming direction (perhaps a re-adaptation of LALD) or at least a character that ended CR resembling in some respects the Connery of DN (less humor, more grit, same excellent tailoring).

Instead, QOS brought us what I think was a generic action hero, who, like the worst parts of Brosnan's tenure could have been named anything: Joe Blow, Jeremy Bigboy, Ralph Genericactonhero. We are also brought away from the Fleming character, ruining the opportunity to have a movie Bond that was based on the literary Bond. The literary Bond is hardened by Vesper's death. This also appeared to be the case of the movie Bond at the end of CR. It is Vesper's death and betrayal that transforms Bond's character in the one we recognize from the early Bond films. QOS substitutes a character who is dysfunctional due to his consuming need for revenge from Vesper's death. This is insconsistent with both the literary Bond (LALD opens with him flying into New York on an assignment having nothing to do with Vesper) or the Bond at the end of CR (calmly, coldly, "Mr. White we have to talk" Craig's Bond doesn't make this a personal vendetta but the finishing of a job, remember "the bitch is dead" and both CR Bond and literary Bond are now capable of suppressing human emotions).

QOS botches it with a character take at odds with the previous movie and Fleming's character. Merge that with herky jerky confusing action sequences and the waste of Daniel Craig's considerable acting talent, together with a standard set by CR of an gripping action thriller with an intelligent plot, character development, and superb acting by Craig and of course there's a backlash against QOS. But the backlash is that possibly the best Bond film ever was followed by gross mediocrity. The backlash is in the opportunity wasted and that most of us expected far, far better.

#39 Mr. Somerset

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:25 PM

It is a few loud fanboys who are complaigning about the former cliches. I think it was the fast action edits that the casual filmgoer had a problem with. If it was not for fanboys and publicity around no "Bond, James Bond" or "shaken not stirred" most people would probably had never noticed. You never hear people complaining about lack of "Bond, James Bond" in FRWL, TB or YOLT or the lack of "SNS" in most of the movies prior to TLD.


I couldn't agree more. I think it's a combination of all the above elements. Most casual fans I spoke with that saw QoS seemed to like it, though, although they commented it seemed like a Bourne imitation. Others simply did not go due to the reviews.
I also feel the publicity around the lack of trademark lines hurt the film somewhat as well. Not a good idea. Many probably assume those lines are in FRWL, TB, and YOLT.... especially those who don't really study the films as intensively as myself and or many of us on the these boards:)

#40 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 04:37 PM

The literary Bond is hardened by Vesper's death.


Where do you get that from in Fleming? He ends the next novel looking forward to a fortnight's 'passionate leave' with a woman who looks almost identical to Vesper, and who he trusted even though she openly worked for the villain. Doesn't seem to have hardened much to me, and I don't see any change to that effect in subsequent stories, either. In fact, if anything, he's rather more sentimental and not nearly as cold-heared as he was before he met Vesper.

#41 MHazard

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:25 PM

The literary Bond is hardened by Vesper's death.


Where do you get that from in Fleming? He ends the next novel looking forward to a fortnight's 'passionate leave' with a woman who looks almost identical to Vesper, and who he trusted even though she openly worked for the villain. Doesn't seem to have hardened much to me, and I don't see any change to that effect in subsequent stories, either. In fact, if anything, he's rather more sentimental and not nearly as cold-heared as he was before he met Vesper.


Post CR, he doesn't go on a revenge spree (although he does deem Smersh a worthy target) where his primary motive is finding those who blackmailed Vesper. He goes on his next assignment and his thoughts are not dominated by Vesper. He has learned to suppress his emotions. Before her betrayal he was contemplating both marriage and retirement. I don't see any indication that he falls, stupidly or otherwise for Solitaire, who does in fact help him and is herself a prisoner of Mr. Big. Understandably he is looking forward to a fortnight's leave with her. I also don't visualize her as a dead ringer for Vesper although it's not surprising that Bond is attracted to a particular physical type. By the next book, MR, he is making love with a cold passion to three similarly disposed married women. My point is that following Vesper's death he becomes more focused on being an agent and whatever feelings he represses for her do not affect how he does his job. Vesper's death and betrayal makes him a better agent both in the movie and the book. Tracy's death in the books almost destroys him (in contrast to the movies where it's almost ignored) but he is an older more world weary Bond (who is actually in France to visit Vesper's grave, which shows he is sentimental but not in a way that interferes with his job).

#42 CaptainPower

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:57 PM

The film just didn't have a good story. Whether or not those Bondian elements were there is irrelevant. Although not as massive a shake-up as they had told us it would be, Casino Royale wasn't a traditional Bond film in many ways(with many quotes around the time stating that is the reason why so many non-fans were surprised at how good it was) but it was the best reviewed Bond in years. I actually believe Quantum to be more of a cop-out in terms of going back to basics than Casino was. Yes, there are times when the film tries to be hard and gritty, but then we have absurd aeroplane dogfight sequences & freefalling that clash with what's gone before it. Even without the story, the film fails with its action sequences. Most are so hard to follow the audience doesn't actually know what's happening and to whom. So we are left with an action thriller that fails at action, isn't particularly thrilling and doesn't have a decent, compelling story: that's why I'd say we have the lack of warmth from many towards it.

Edited by CaptainPower, 05 March 2009 - 05:59 PM.


#43 00Twelve

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:09 PM

I question whether or not anyone who calls QoS "Flemingesque" has really read much Fleming


I do. And I have. Given my age and the length of time I have been reading - and re-reading - Fleming, it's possible I've read more Fleming than you. Not that that make my opinion any more valid than yours. But as someone who has read a huge amount of Fleming, QoS is one of the very few films to really capture his spirit (particularly the early books).


Would you mind expanding on this, deebmeister? I myself have read everything by Fleming (everything Bond, anyway), and have done so repeatedly.

I do think QUANTUM OF SOLACE (a film I like very much) is Flemingian, or that at any rate it's not un-Flemingian. Does it capture his spirit? Yeah, I guess. But I can't really put my finger on why. Also, what's with the citing of the early books?

I mentioned the tonal similarity to the early Fleming stories, too, Loom. Though I went into slightly more detail. As I'm too lazy at the moment to quote myself, you can check it out on page 1. :(

#44 jaguar007

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:35 PM

Instead, QOS brought us what I think was a generic action hero, who, like the worst parts of Brosnan's tenure could have been named anything: Joe Blow, Jeremy Bigboy, Ralph Genericactonhero. We are also brought away from the Fleming character, ruining the opportunity to have a movie Bond that was based on the literary Bond. The literary Bond is hardened by Vesper's death. This also appeared to be the case of the movie Bond at the end of CR. It is Vesper's death and betrayal that transforms Bond's character in the one we recognize from the early Bond films. QOS substitutes a character who is dysfunctional due to his consuming need for revenge from Vesper's death. This is insconsistent with both the literary Bond (LALD opens with him flying into New York on an assignment having nothing to do with Vesper) or the Bond at the end of CR (calmly, coldly, "Mr. White we have to talk" Craig's Bond doesn't make this a personal vendetta but the finishing of a job, remember "the bitch is dead" and both CR Bond and literary Bond are now capable of suppressing human emotions).


QoS was far less a revenge story than LTK was. Bond told M he would not go after Yusef because he was not worth it (of course he was just saying that). He did not go after Yusef (with MI5's assistance) until after dealing with Greene. Greene had nothing to do with Vesper directly (although he was part of Quantum). Bond did disobey M, but not out of vengance, but to follow his lead to get Greene. The closure on Vesper was more of a subplot to QoS, but Bond was not a rogue agent seeking revenge throughout the film, he was a hard, dedicated agent doing what it takes to complete his job.

#45 zencat

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:42 PM

Craigs hair sucked for QOS, he needs the CR hairdo,


FIrst time I have heard that one.

I'm finding I'm much less concerned with what DC's hair looks like film to film than I was with Roger and Pierce. It's weird. Why do we fixate on the hair?

#46 jaguar007

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 06:47 PM

Craigs hair sucked for QOS, he needs the CR hairdo,


FIrst time I have heard that one.

I'm finding I'm much less concerned with what DC's hair looks like film to film than I was with Roger and Pierce. It's weird. Why do we fixate on the hair?


Personally I don't get all the fixation with hair :(
Posted Image

Zen, maybe your concern with Roger and Pierce was the "helmet hair"

#47 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:00 PM

Post CR, he doesn't go on a revenge spree (although he does deem Smersh a worthy target) where his primary motive is finding those who blackmailed Vesper.


How does that show he's hardened? Isn't it more like softened? After the first couple of chapters, he completely forgets about his threat to hunt down the spies behind the spies, and Vesper isn't even mentioned in the books, either by name or by implication, until ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. If you mean by hardened that for several years he seems to have completely forgotten Vesper ever existed, well, yes.

He goes on his next assignment and his thoughts are not dominated by Vesper. He has learned to suppress his emotions.


I think that's reading into it somewhat! Fleming's copy of LIVE AND LET DIE had the following note by him on the fly-leaves:

'Michael Arlen told me to write my second book before I had seen the reviews of the first and this was written in January and February 1953 at Goldeneye, Jamaica.'

I think, apart from a few cursory nods to CASINO ROYALE in the opening chapters, Fleming largely ignored the events of his first novel in his second, simply because he wasn't sure how successful it would have been and so how many people would have read it and understood such references. I don't think there's meant to have been any pyschological development shown in LALD, and this is hardly evidence for it if there is. He does develop as the series goes on, but I can't see what you mean by him hardening, I'm afraid. He's a much more hardened character in CR than in any of the other books, to my mind.

Before her betrayal he was contemplating both marriage and retirement. I don't see any indication that he falls, stupidly or otherwise for Solitaire, who does in fact help him and is herself a prisoner of Mr. Big.


He doesn't know she is a prisoner, though, before she comes over to his side: she could be trying to deceive him - as Vesper recently did. He makes an 'unpardonable gamble' to believe her, and I think he definitely develops feelings for her, even if he doesn't ask her to marry him. I don't see him in any way as a more hardened character in this novel than in the previous one: can you point to a passage that shows it?

I also don't visualize her as a dead ringer for Vesper although it's not surprising that Bond is attracted to a particular physical type.


‘The eyes were blue, alight and disdainful, but, as they gazed into his with a touch of humour, he realized they contained some message for him personally. It quickly vanished as his own eyes answered. Her hair was blue-black and fell heavily to her shoulders. She had wide cheekbones and a wide sensual mouth which held a hint of cruelty. Her jawline was delicate and finely cut.’

Without checking the books, who would you guess that was a description of?

It's Solitaire, but it really is remarkably similar to what we were told of Vesper. She also had blue eyes, which gazed at Bond with ‘ironical disinterest’; black hair; a wide and sensual mouth; and a ‘beautiful and clear’ jawline. The only significant difference is that Vesper had shorter hair. And yet Bond doesn't even think for a moment of the woman who, just a few months previously, he had been about to propose marriage. Is this because he has been hardened by the experience? I really don't think so, and there just isn't anything in the text itself to support that idea.

By the next book, MR, he is making love with a cold passion to three similarly disposed married women.


True - but it's no more hardened than the man who before Vesper's death was weary of the traditional arc of love affairs.

My point is that following Vesper's death he becomes more focused on being an agent and whatever feelings he represses for her do not affect how he does his job.


I think you're assuming more about Fleming's motives with the character than can be seen in the books themselves. I don't think Fleming worked like that at all: the books are littered with inconsistencies, he wrote them very fast, and in many cases the events (and often the girl) of the last adventure are swiftly dealt with in the first two chapters and then forgotten. I don't see that he's any more focussed on being an agent because of Vesper, either: after a couple of glancing references, he completely forgets all that stuff about the threat behind the spies - it is simply not delivered on.

Vesper's death and betrayal makes him a better agent both in the movie and the book. Tracy's death in the books almost destroys him (in contrast to the movies where it's almost ignored) but he is an older more world weary Bond (who is actually in France to visit Vesper's grave, which shows he is sentimental but not in a way that interferes with his job).


I think even in the books, Tracy's death is really skirted over pretty fast. A couple of chapters of great writing about it, but then he's out in Japan and he barely thinks about her again until... oh, look, what luck! There's the chap who killed my wife. I think Fleming was defiantly not a writer who was considering his character's development or 'arc' in anything like as clear or coherent a way as you're making out.

#48 MHazard

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:54 PM

Spy Novel Fan: I unfortunately don't keep my copies of the Bond novels at my office, which is where I am at now (and is a good thing or I'd never get any work done). I am convinced, as you seem to be, that Fleming gave much of this a lot less thought than we do. That having been said, that Bond is interested in "boinking" (can I say that on CB.net?) women who look like Vesper is not to say that he is obsessed with Vesper post CR. (It may also say more about Fleming's heroines mostly being portrayed with similar physical characteristics due to sloppy writing or Fleming's own tastes). We could debate certain fine points of Bond's development or lack thereof in the books but my major point was that the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.

My other major point was that any backlash against QOS was due to the mediocrity of the movie not its grittiness.

#49 jaguar007

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:02 PM

the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.


The same can be said for many of the Bond movies. The Bond Roger Moore gave us in Moonraker or The Spy Who Loved Me does not resemble the Bond in any of Fleming's books or the Bond in the early films like DR. No or FRWL.

#50 draxingtonstanley

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:24 PM

I don't really see much of a backlash as far as the general public is concerned,as has been pointed out in previous posts;the film was a massive commercial success. It has certainly polarised opinion among Bond fans,but surely that is no bad thing. Within the forums of CBN alone we can find hugely varying opinions on any of the Bond films,and these opinions ebb and flow with time,and even exposure to other Bond fans' opinions- after reading ZorinIndustries(apostrophe conundrum-should there be one after the s here?) eloquent review of View To A Kill I am even tempted to revisit what I have always considered to be the nadir of Bond films.
I found Quantum Of Solace to be very redolent of Fleming,a specific example being the scene between Bond and Camille in the sink hole where she tells the story of Medrano murdering her family. And I found this tone ran through the film. It wasn't perfect,but it involved me and delivered what I want from a Bond cinema experience,where other entries in the series for me have failed-I'm looking at you,Licence To Kill.

#51 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:47 PM

the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.


The same can be said for many of the Bond movies. The Bond Roger Moore gave us in Moonraker or The Spy Who Loved Me does not resemble the Bond in any of Fleming's books or the Bond in the early films like DR. No or FRWL.


Yes, but the Bond of of the beginning of QOS needed to be to be consistent- unlike the examples that you mentioned- with the Bond of the last scene of CR, because is a direct sequel that starts just an hour after its predecessor's finale.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 05 March 2009 - 09:50 PM.


#52 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:08 PM

Spy Novel Fan: I unfortunately don't keep my copies of the Bond novels at my office, which is where I am at now (and is a good thing or I'd never get any work done). I am convinced, as you seem to be, that Fleming gave much of this a lot less thought than we do. That having been said, that Bond is interested in "boinking" (can I say that on CB.net?) women who look like Vesper is not to say that he is obsessed with Vesper post CR. (It may also say more about Fleming's heroines mostly being portrayed with similar physical characteristics due to sloppy writing or Fleming's own tastes). We could debate certain fine points of Bond's development or lack thereof in the books but my major point was that the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.


Fair enough. I've always felt that Fleming missed a trick with LALD, in that it did not develop what he seemed to suggest we were going to see at the end of his first novel, and that Vesper was essentially forgotten in it. I think QoS the film is consistent with the end of both the film and novel of CR, and was pleased to see that done. I also think the Fleming spirit is there in everything from the boldness of the title, the relationship between Dominic and Camille, the presence and treatment of the character of Mathis (and the speech from CR the novel that was missing from CR the film) and a host of other touches. I think Camille is also very much a character in keeping with Fleming's women.

#53 ACE

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:10 PM

the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.


The same can be said for many of the Bond movies. The Bond Roger Moore gave us in Moonraker or The Spy Who Loved Me does not resemble the Bond in any of Fleming's books or the Bond in the early films like DR. No or FRWL.


Yes, but the Bond of of the beginning of QOS needed to be to be consistent- unlike the examples that you mentioned- with the Bond of the last scene of CR, because is a direct sequel that starts just an hour after its predecessor's finale.

But what about the Bond of YOLT and OHMSS?
Surely that needed to be consistent?
Bond met Blofeld in one film and then in the next the conceit of the plot was that a disguised Bond infiltrates Blofeld's lair. While not direct sequels, the latter film went out of its way to tell audiences it was the same world as the former.

Now, of course, the reversal of the order of novels and change of actors, directors and crew caused this disruption. But it never bothered me because I loved the films.

But that is a far greater, plot-centric inconsistency than the admittedly annoying lapses of continuity (temporal and sartorial) between CR and QoS.

It comes down to whether we enjoyed the film or not. If yes, we forgive, if no, we don't.

If we are arguing about consistency in films, we should be consistent in our argument.

The Bond films have always been inconsistent (the casting of Felix Leiter, anyone?). QoS is not the first inconsistent film in the series but how much of a weakness that really is, is viewed through the prism of how much we enjoyed the film.

#54 Head of S

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:52 PM

Post CR, he doesn't go on a revenge spree (although he does deem Smersh a worthy target) where his primary motive is finding those who blackmailed Vesper.


How does that show he's hardened? Isn't it more like softened? After the first couple of chapters, he completely forgets about his threat to hunt down the spies behind the spies, and Vesper isn't even mentioned in the books, either by name or by implication, until ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. If you mean by hardened that for several years he seems to have completely forgotten Vesper ever existed, well, yes.


In the far corner, a trio, consisting of a piano, an electric guitar and drums, was playing 'La Vie en Rose' with muted sweetness.
They sat for a time listening to the music and then Bond turned to Vesper: "It's wonderful sitting here with you and knowing the job's finished. It's a lovely end to the day - the prize-giving."
- from CASINO ROYALE by Ian Fleming

Bond walked over to the gramophone and picked up the record. It was George Feyer with rhythm accompaniment. He looked at the number and memorized it. It was VOX 500. He examined the other side and, skipping 'La Vie en Rose' because it had memories for him, put the needle down at the beginning of 'Avril au Portugal'.
- from DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER by Ian Fleming

There are other subtle references in the Fleming novels that demonstrate Vesper has never been forgotten by Bond.

Edited by Head of S, 05 March 2009 - 10:53 PM.


#55 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 10:59 PM

Oh, I'd forgotten that, Head of S! A point well made. I think it is a bit over-stating it to say that he is hardened by the experience, though, from a few small references scattered through a dozen novels. But I'll admit this is all getting very picky and of course we all see it different ways. Perhaps it's because I was always hoping that Fleming would take this line more, I don't know.

#56 Joe Bond

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:05 PM

I don't see any inconsistencies with the Bond at the end of CR and the beginning of QoS because sure at the end of CR he says "The name is Bond. James Bond" with a smile but I also felt when Bond said "Time to Get Out" he seemed very much the same and when the interrogation scene happens the toll of the death of Vesper, finding Mr. White, trying to escape the Quantum men chasing him hit Bond at this point since he finally has time to rest and whenever M mentions Vesper his response are in the same tone as "the bitch is dead" line so that checks out to me. I don't buy the whole Vesper revenge story line since I think Bond really does not want revenge but he thinks of Vesper sometimes, within the story, because come on QoS is supposed to take place right after the death of Vesper and even if Bond could suppress his emotional feelings for Vesper her death was so recent mixed with the fact that he does not know for sure if Vesper was pure evil or if she was forced to do the bad things things she did so he sometimes thinks of her because he is not sure if the feelings she had for him were real or not and this haunts him and why he can't simply repress them or sleep. I would feel it to be unrealistic if he had suppressed all of his feelings for Vesper since it would be too soon for me. I think he uses his current mission to at first distract him from the thought of Vesper but when he catches Greene he finds out who Vesper's boyfriend was so he could find out if Vesper had been tricked into doing bad things for Quantum like taking the money Bond won in CR to Gettler so if she had been tricked he would finally know for sure that Vesper actually loved him which would provide the closure needed for him to suppress all of the bad memories from Vesper hence getting his Quantum of Solace. However, when he catches up with Yusef I think he may of thought for a second for revenge but after seeing what happened to Camille and Yusef saying "make it quick" he knows that not taking revenge was the right move.

I think QoS is very Fleming for several reasons:

1. Some of the action come out of nowhere like in some of the novels

2. The tone being more dark and realistic

3. The locations used show more of how they are in real life kinda of like how in the YOLT novel Fleming gives an accurate picture in Japan unlike the film which pretty much sugar coats the culture of Japan and portrays it in a more dream like fashion than realistic fashion.

4. The title, taken from Fleming and is the best title the film could have had in my opinion (remember the rumors of the title being "007")

As far as Bond in the LALD novel compared to QoS, I have not read the LALD novel but I trust that spynovelfan has read it many times so reading his comments shows to me that there was no emotional continuity through the CR and LALD novel so I feel QoS just takes the idea that Fleming creates at the end of the CR novel and takes it and completes this idea that Fleming never managed too. I think it would be unrealistic for Bond to just stop thinking about Vesper because of the things I mentioned plus if he never actually tries to find the "threat behind the spies" it would be unrealistic if the LALD novel was a direct sequel to CR but like spynovelfan I believe it was not meant to be so we could imagine that QoS's story could have been the story that directly followed the CR novel.

#57 spynovelfan

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:12 PM

As far as Bond in the LALD novel compared to QoS, I have not read the LALD novel but I trust that spynovelfan has read it many times so reading his comments shows to me that there was no emotional continuity through the CR and LALD novel so I feel QoS just takes the idea that Fleming creates at the end of the CR novel and takes it and completes this idea that Fleming never managed too. I think it would be unrealistic for Bond to just stop thinking about Vesper because of the things I mentioned plus if he never actually tries to find the "threat behind the spies" it would be unrealistic if the LALD novel was a direct sequel to CR but like spynovelfan I believe it was not meant to be so we could imagine that QoS's story could have been the story that directly followed the CR novel.


Apart from my mild disappointment at it not delivering on the promise of the ending of CR, you really must read LIVE AND LET DIE, Joe Bond: it's a superb novel. You'll rattle through it.

#58 jaguar007

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:16 PM

the Bond given us in QOS is not the Bond Fleming gave us at the end of CR or beginning of LALD. He is also not similar to the Bond of the early movies, wihch he rather resembled by the end of CR (again with less humor, but a certain similar detached suavity and deadliness). Instead QOS gives us an obsessed with Vesper Bond that's not particularly interesting or I think consistent with how the character was left at the end of either CR the movie or CR the book.


The same can be said for many of the Bond movies. The Bond Roger Moore gave us in Moonraker or The Spy Who Loved Me does not resemble the Bond in any of Fleming's books or the Bond in the early films like DR. No or FRWL.


Yes, but the Bond of of the beginning of QOS needed to be to be consistent- unlike the examples that you mentioned- with the Bond of the last scene of CR, because is a direct sequel that starts just an hour after its predecessor's finale.


Remember that QoS made it clear to us that the last scene in CR took place quite a bit later than rest of the movie. I also thought that Craig's performance was consistant in QoS, unlike Brosnan in TWINE.

#59 MHazard

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 11:41 PM

Lack of continuity has, in my view, been a weakness, not a strength of the Bond movies. Generally though there has at least been some continuity between movies starring the same Bond actor. I don't think that QOS has continuity with the character established in CR, the movie or the book. Perhaps you can argue that it does by saying that that take on Craig's character was not foreclosed. But, at least for my taste, it is a much less interesting take than other takes which were also not foreclosed, and thus a missed opportunity. It might, arguably have continuity with the CR movie, but, with respect to those like SpyNovelFanwho have their Fleming handy, I don't believe that Craig's QOS Bond follows from Fleming's CR Bond.

By the way I'd forgotten the DAF incident at Tiffany's and there's no question Bond remembers Vesper with various mixed feelings and regret, but I don't believe he'd be consciously obsessed with her to the extent portrayed in QOS. Instead, he'd be repressing feelings. The QOS Bond might've turned up the volume rather than skipping La Vie En Rose.

#60 MattofSteel

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 12:20 AM

There's plenty of sharp, appropriate, well-written humour in Q0S inspite of the meloncholic nature of the film. I wrote two big paragraphs outlining some of it in my thread in the Members' Review section of the Forums:

http://debrief.comma...showtopic=51654


Every review calling the film 'humourless' that I read before I saw the film (maybe one too many) absolutely baffled me once I had. There are so many moments of classical Bond humour...I just don't see how it escapes some people.