50 replies to this topic

[Mister Asterix]

The point was atmosphere.

The atmosphere was pointless.

Yeah, ’cause that scene would’ve played much more exciting in a WalMart parking lot in Des Moines.

(That was my sarcastic voice.)

[Harmsway]

However... there's something about the way this is filmed that manages to get across quite a lot of information in a very short period of time. Bilbao is not integrated at all in TWINE - there really is no reason for it to be there than to feature a cool place. And Siena initially appears the same, but in fact Forster has simply compressed - like he has done so much - the traditional idea of this sort of locale-hopping. There is a purpose to it - an ancient cultural scene of primeval competitiveness, an explosive chase through the streets about to find a parallel with Bond and Mitchell - but although it's very fleeting, the texture is there, in a way it really isn't in TWINE with Bilbao. You feel you're in Italy.

Quite so.

And what I especially loved was how an innocent bystander was shot and killed, and that Forster was willing to return to the scene after the chase just to show the mess. It's rare in a Bond film that violence has consequences beyond those immediately involved.

Bloody well right. It's one of the most striking, surprising and sobering touches in any Bond film ever.

Indeed it is.

The point was atmosphere.

The atmosphere was pointless.

Yeah, ’cause that scene would’ve played much more exciting in a WalMart parking lot in Des Moines.

(That was my sarcastic voice.)

[Loomis]

I see QoS as rather like an iceberg: only an eighth is showing above the surface. Very unusual for a Bond film - richly rewarding, though.

Well, this is something that's refreshing about QoS.... yet also a pain in the , to be frank.

I like the film a lot, but it's not a self-contained, satisfying experience like many of the others. GOLDENEYE, DIE ANOTHER DAY and CASINO ROYALE are all perfect in my book - there's nothing missing. Everything is neatly wrapped up and tied off, and all of the Bond elements are present and correct. I know that this makes me sound a philistine (and, worse, one of those dreaded creatures called "fans"), but they're rollicking works of good old-fashioned fun-for-all-the-family escapist hokum, yes, even CR, which also attempts (and succeeds) to be something else as well.

QoS is more like something like FRENCH CONNECTION II. It's great, gritty, atmospheric and arty stuff, and the Bond franchise would be an awful lot poorer without it. However, it is undeniably a conclusion and not a, well, a complete story.

You know The Stone Roses' "I Am the Resurrection"? Of course you do. Now, QoS strikes me as a little like that song's awesome virtuoso instrumental outro - it's excellent stuff, but really not all that wonderful without the context of the song as a whole. That's the problem with QoS: it lacks Ian Brown, so to speak.

[spynovelfan]

I see what you mean, of course, Loomis, but I rather like that. I'm sure it's been said elsewhere on these boards, and I'm simply throwing things out as they occur to me because I've got a lot on, but it is very clearly an interval film, the bridge between CR and whatever we're going to see next. It's the bullet in the trilogy - I think it will be a trilogy - and it has some sharp shards of texture and some great action and it zips by, and now we're primed for the next. Come to think of it, I have seen that thought somewhere around these parts. I suspect the three films will be able to be shown together, on TV, at cinemas, and so on.

I hope you won't mind my saying this, Loomis, after however many 'conversations' we have shared in this odd virtual world, but I occasionally find that you have an ever-so-slightly odd festishistic need to place art in some sort of wider context. Perhaps that is just being a fan. But this desire to rank all the films - you're not the only one to do that, I know - and trying to find metaphors for other films and where it fits in the cinematic canon, and so on... I just don't understand the purpose of that. Fun, I'm sure, and good exercise for your brain, but here's another way to look at it, another way to prise: it's not the French Connection II or the outro to I Am The Resurrection. It's not defined by other works of art. It is quite simply its own work of art. Quantum of Solace is... Quantum of Solace. It can work that way, too, you know.

[Loomis]

I hope you won't mind my saying this, Loomis, after however many 'conversations' we have shared in this odd virtual world, but I occasionally find that you have an ever-so-slightly odd festishistic need to place art in some sort of wider context.

Guilty, m'lud. You are quite correct.

[spynovelfan]

Well, on reflection, I'm perhaps coming across as a bit harsh and I don't mean to, sorry. I do enjoy it - Stone Roses outros! - and I guess to some degree it's why we're all here, having lots of conversations about films we've seen, trying to make sense of them.

But I do find myself a bit mystified by all the ranking going on. I've just never been that interested in doing that, perhaps partly because my views aren't all that fixed! I'd humbly suggest - while I'm having my third go at you in as many days, I realise! - that yours aren't either. You disliked Casino Royale quite a lot on first viewing, I seem to remember.

[doublenoughtspy]

But I do find myself a bit mystified by all the ranking going on.

I agree about the ranking stuff.

Check out this old thread where I postulate on what it would be like if one ranked pretty much everything in a day, the way people do with Bond films...

http://debrief.comma...showtopic=36870

[spynovelfan]

I'd forgotten that thread! Yes, I feel a bit like that sometimes. I've never been that sort of a fan about Bond, or anything else. I know I prefer Quantum of Solace to, say, The Man With The Golden Gun (just plucking an example out of the air innocently ), but the thought of deciding all my Bond films in order and so on doesn't and never has appealed to me. It's not static, and the criteria are too numerous and, well, I don't know why. I've never been into collecting stuff, either. I just like the books and films, largely.

The books over the films, obviously. Then the video games, then the toys, and finally the board games.

[Loomis]

Well, on reflection, I'm perhaps coming across as a bit harsh and I don't mean to, sorry. I do enjoy it - Stone Roses outros! - and I guess to some degree it's why we're all here, having lots of conversations about films we've seen, trying to make sense of them.

But I do find myself a bit mystified by all the ranking going on. I've just never been that interested in doing that, perhaps partly because my views aren't all that fixed! I'd humbly suggest - while I'm having my third go at you in as many days, I realise! - that yours aren't either. You disliked Casino Royale quite a lot on first viewing, I seem to remember.

"Disliked" is the wrong word. I merely questioned whether it was as good as MIAMI VICE. But, on my My 100 Best Films of All Time List, CASINO ROYALE and MIAMI VICE are now at #32 and #45 respectively.

I jest. I have made no such list. Yet.

I've never been that sort of a fan about Bond, or anything else. I know I prefer Quantum of Solace to, say, The Man With The Golden Gun (just plucking an example out of the air innocently ), but the thought of deciding all my Bond films in order and so on doesn't and never has appealed to me. It's not static, and the criteria are too numerous and, well, I don't know why. I've never been into collecting stuff, either.

You boringly normal, sane, non-fanboyish so-and-so, you.

[byline]

I have another question about the horse race: At one point, the crowd rushes over to the railing. Did a horse fall, or was a jockey shot by Bond or the other fellow? Things happened so quickly that I had a hard time keeping up.

[Double-Oh Agent]

That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

What about the pyramid show in TSWLM?
What about the orchestra and later opera in TLD?
What about the skating show in OHMSS?
What about the Junkanoo and the Carnival in Thunderball and Moonraker?
What about the St Sophia tourist tour in FRWL?

Some very bad examples from your side since these scenes were so perfectly integrated in to the action. Nothing like what we got in QOS. The 5 seconds from the Palio chase doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, or compared, with any of these scenes.

Absolutely agree.

I agree as well. If there had been more of the Palio race shown, then it would have better integrated into the action and generated a better feeling of atmosphere. Instead, we get two or three brief shots of the beginning and ending of the race and later Bond coming out of the tunnels amongst the crowd. One good establishing shot of the event would have been either a rooftop or an aerial view of the horses racing around the people/square. That would have shown the speed and danger of the race and mixed with the crowd's enthusiasm and excitement would have greatly added to the atmosphere--and the film.

[00Twelve]

It's a reckless chase juxtaposed with a [culturally indigenous] reckless chase. Just that cinematic language of metaphor. The thing only happens every 2 years and it's a very special event for the locals. Bond need not play some integral escapist role in the race itself. It was a nice metaphor, IMO.

[spynovelfan]

You boringly normal, sane, non-fanboyish so-and-so, you.

All right, I suppose I did ask for that.

[Blofeld's Cat]

The point was atmosphere.

Precisely. It sets a mood and adds some exotic, sporting flavour.

True, but as they were not allowed to film any actual carnage (especially to the horses) that usually occurs during these races it was a bit sanitised.

[MkB]

I have another question about the horse race: At one point, the crowd rushes over to the railing. Did a horse fall, or was a jockey shot by Bond or the other fellow? Things happened so quickly that I had a hard time keeping up.

I'm not sure, but maybe it was the final lap, and they congratulate the winning contrada, if we're talking about the same moment (just before Bonds pops of the bottini, on the main square among the crowd)?

[Aris007]

While the horse race was taking place, Bond and Mitchell were running under the arena. The gallopade that the horses did maybe caused the collapse of the stone that the tunnel was made of. I'm saying this because while Mitchell is running you can see parts of the tunnel falling and a lot of dust!

[byline]

Hubby and I are off to see it again tonight, so I'll watch that scene more closely to see if I can figure it out.

Edit: OK, having seen it again last night, it appears that onlookers are simply rushing to the railing to catch a glimpse of the winner. As I recall, there's a shot of a woman crying, which is what had me confused. I wondered if a horse had fallen, a jockey and/or horse were injured, etc. But I don't think that was the case; I guess she was just overcome with excitement.

Edited by byline, 23 November 2008 - 07:48 PM.

[Paul Scrabo]

Someone mentioned
What about the pyramid show in TSWLM?
What about the orchestra and later opera in TLD?
What about the skating show in OHMSS?
What about the Junkanoo and the Carnival in Thunderball and Moonraker?
What about the St Sophia tourist tour in FRWL?

Yes, that was atmosphere that worked and was very Bondian, IMO.
But I don't feel that the horse race in QOS comes anywhere near the above examples.
It doesn't blend, it doesn't contrast, it's just a mess. Like much of QOS, nothing is done very well. I wish I felt different. I promise I will see it again.
And what was with that girl being shot...or was it my imagination...??

Paul

Edited by Paul Scrabo, 22 November 2008 - 08:16 PM.

[Bondian]

Please don't take this as a negative post, but there's just no build up in this scene. Maybe there shouldn't be, but it's another part of this film were it just falls flat for me.

[JimmyBond]

And what was with that girl being shot...or was it my imagination...??

Paul

It's there to show that all action has consequences. Something that's not really reflected upon in any other Bond film. A bold move for the Bond series imo.

[byline]

And what was with that girl being shot...or was it my imagination...??

Paul

It's there to show that all action has consequences. Something that's not really reflected upon in any other Bond film. A bold move for the Bond series imo.

I agree.