50 replies to this topic

[deth]

I remember a big deal being made about the inclusion of the horse race in QOS. Being the spectacle that it is, I assumed that it would play some integral part in either the Sienna part of the plot, or at least a part of the action sequence there. Lo and behold, it wasn't really used at all. In fact there's no interaction with the race and any of the characters... Bond goes through a crowd... ok, but that could be done anywhere.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that it was there for symbolic purposes... but I think even then, it was still completely under-used.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

[tim partridge]

Intercutting between the horse race and the action reminded me of a similar scene from BEVERLY HILLS COP 2.

[DaveBond21]

Now, I suppose it could be argued that it was there for symbolic purposes... but I think even then, it was still completely under-used.

I think it possibly was used for symbolic reasons. But also perhaps MI6 picked the day of the horse race so that there was plenty of noise to drown out any gunshots, and it might be easier to do what they wanted to do with Mr White while the town was pre-occupied by the event.

[MkB]

My understanding is that the tension of the horse race and supporting crowd echoes the one of the rooftop chase.

[Professor Dent]

My understanding is that the tension of the horse race and supporting crowd echoes the one of the rooftop chase.

I wasn't quite sure on this one either after I saw it. I had figured it would play a bigger part than it did. MkB's explanation makes sense.

[zencat]

The point was atmosphere.

[Turn]

I think the point was Bond was in a place famous for its horse race, not unlike being at Ascot in AVTAK, although not especially well known by audiences. It's quite visual and works well as a distraction for the chase. I feared early on when I read it was being incorporated into the film that Bond would be joining the race in some action scene.

The series has always tried to show local color, which helps audiences associate with a particular location -- think kickboxing in TMWTGG, the Junkanoo in TB or the sumo match in YOLT -- unlike Venice which most people associate with the canals, for instance or San Francisco with The Golden Gate Bridge.

I'm quite thankful it's a real event in a real location as opposed to a backlot at Pinewood.

[Double-Oh Agent]

I remember a big deal being made about the inclusion of the horse race in QOS. Being the spectacle that it is, I assumed that it would play some integral part in either the Sienna part of the plot, or at least a part of the action sequence there. Lo and behold, it wasn't really used at all. In fact there's no interaction with the race and any of the characters... Bond goes through a crowd... ok, but that could be done anywhere.

Now, I suppose it could be argued that it was there for symbolic purposes... but I think even then, it was still completely under-used.

Perhaps I'm missing something?

I agree with you. It was very underused. I had a similar reaction to the car chase in that when I finished watching it, I was like, that was it?! I would have liked to have seen more of the pomp of the horses' entries into the square and the race itself intercut into the MI6 goings-on. Instead, we see a couple of horses come in, the start of the race, and the finish. It ALMOST wasn't worth the trouble to film it.

[sharpshooter]

The point was atmosphere.

Precisely. It sets a mood and adds some exotic, sporting flavour.

[avl]

The point was atmosphere.

Precisely. It sets a mood and adds some exotic, sporting flavour.

Exactly. And it harks back to the original 60's travelogue style Bonds. And it looks great!

[Mr_Wint]

It would have been better if a part of the chase actually took place in the horse race. As it is now, very pointless.

[avl]

It would have been better if a part of the chase actually took place in the horse race. As it is now, very pointless.

In the same way as you I guess think, say, the bullfight in OHMSS is very pointless?

[Zorin Industries]

It would have been better if a part of the chase actually took place in the horse race. As it is now, very pointless.

Mr Wint - because you didn't like it doesn't make it pointless.

The Palio scenes were there to add tone, timbre, contrast and pace. The Palio is actually a world renowned race that is deadly - to the audience and the riders. That is why Bond cut through the spectators. It wouldn't have quite the same effect had he barged through a trail of tourists taking photos of historic statues. The deadliness and danger of the Palio is intercut to make a tonal comparison to BOND and MITCHELL's chase.

[CM007]

The use of the Horse Race was when Bond is chasing Mitchell in the sewers the roof of the sewer seems to be caving in due to the Horses racing above.Also it´s there to let you know that Bond and Mitchell are under the on going Horse Race

It would have been better if a part of the chase actually took place in the horse race. As it is now, very pointless.

Mr Wint - because you didn't like it doesn't make it pointless.

The Palio scenes were there to add tone, timbre, contrast and pace. The Palio is actually a world renowned race that is deadly - to the audience and the riders. That is why Bond cut through the spectators. It wouldn't have quite the same effect had he barged through a trail of tourists taking photos of historic statues. The deadliness and danger of the Palio is intercut to make a tonal comparison to BOND and MITCHELL's chase.

No you are wrong,it´s nothing to do with Tonal Comparison.That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

[HildebrandRarity]

That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

What about the pyramid show in TSWLM?
What about the orchestra and later opera in TLD?
What about the skating show in OHMSS?
What about the Junkanoo and the Carnival in Thunderball and Moonraker?
What about the St Sophia tourist tour in FRWL?

The area's culture is being showcased and juxtaposed. It what differentiates Bond from run-of-the-mill American movies.

Is FRWL or TSWLM arty-farty too. All Bond movies are arty-farty. Have you noticed the Main Titles sequences?

[00Twelve]

The use of the Horse Race was when Bond is chasing Mitchell in the sewers the roof of the sewer seems to be caving in due to the Horses racing above.Also it´s there to let you know that Bond and Mitchell are under the on going Horse Race

It would have been better if a part of the chase actually took place in the horse race. As it is now, very pointless.

Mr Wint - because you didn't like it doesn't make it pointless.

The Palio scenes were there to add tone, timbre, contrast and pace. The Palio is actually a world renowned race that is deadly - to the audience and the riders. That is why Bond cut through the spectators. It wouldn't have quite the same effect had he barged through a trail of tourists taking photos of historic statues. The deadliness and danger of the Palio is intercut to make a tonal comparison to BOND and MITCHELL's chase.

No you are wrong,it´s nothing to do with Tonal Comparison.That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

It's nothing to do with tonal comparison?? Again, if you didn't get the intentions, fine. But asserting that the filmmakers just acted on whims to make the movie "more arty farty" only undermines your own credibility. I'm not saying that from "on high," but as with any debate, it helps to have an informed opinion.

It is not their fault that you don't like it. I'm sorry.

[pgram]

once again, i think people judge mainly the intentions of the filmakers rather than the actual result.

The end of CR was in Italy, so they wanted to introduce some local colour. The palio was a really good idea. It was dangerous, picturesque and everything and it was unmistakingly Siena.

The problem was, when they shot the palio, they hadn't written the story yet, they didn't know what to do with it. They just shot as much as possible, hoping they could link it to the story.

It turned out, they couldn't. People here complain about the editing of the action sequences, but the editing i found really bad was the palio-roof chase intercuts, and the voiceovers at the beginning of it. The palio added nothing. Yes, you can tell what it was supposed to be, but it was poorly done. It didn't either add or contradict the action on the rooftops.

At the end, it leaves us with some nice images, but with the bittersweet taste of another missed opportunity. Something that I was glad it was included, but sad it wasn't used anywhere near its full potential.

Edited by pgram, 21 November 2008 - 12:43 PM.

[Mr_Wint]

That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

What about the pyramid show in TSWLM?
What about the orchestra and later opera in TLD?
What about the skating show in OHMSS?
What about the Junkanoo and the Carnival in Thunderball and Moonraker?
What about the St Sophia tourist tour in FRWL?

Some very bad examples from your side since these scenes were so perfectly integrated in to the action. Nothing like what we got in QOS. The 5 seconds from the Palio chase doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, or compared, with any of these scenes.

[pgram]

That´s just an excuse to make QOS more arty Farty.

What about the pyramid show in TSWLM?
What about the orchestra and later opera in TLD?
What about the skating show in OHMSS?
What about the Junkanoo and the Carnival in Thunderball and Moonraker?
What about the St Sophia tourist tour in FRWL?

Some very bad examples from your side since these scenes were so perfectly integrated in to the action. Nothing like what we got in QOS. The 5 seconds from the Palio chase doesn't even deserve to be mentioned, or compared, with any of these scenes.

Absolutely agree.

[YOLT]

James Bond films are not just action. It s a fantasy all around the world.

For example take FRWL. Being a Turk I have never seen such a great tourist advertisment as such FRWL

[MkB]

James Bond films are not just action. It s a fantasy all around the world.

For example take FRWL. Being a Turk I have never seen such a great tourist advertisment as such FRWL

Very true!
FRWL is the reason why I considered taking the Orient Express (until I saw the fares )!


About the Palio, the race is very short, in fact (something like three laps around the city square, I think), so there wasn't that much that could be done with the race itself. But I do believe that the packed crowd add something to the foot chase: it wouldn't have the same intensity on a normal day on the Piazza del Campo, where you just have some odd tourist groups and flocks of students hangig around. Plus, if there wasn't the Palio show, Bond and Mitchell wreaking havoc on the medieval roofs and belfries of Siena would have drawn far more attention. It works both as an echo of the tension, and as a "cover" for there cat-and-mouse game.

[Craig is 007]

I think the Palio horse race was brilliantly used in the film. Like said before, it created atmosphere. Maybe it was symbolizing what was going on inside Bond during the interrogation (?).

[Harmsway]

Why the horse race?

Well, for local color and a touch of elegance, I suspect. I quite loved the use of the Palio footage. It reminded me of the bits of the bullfight from OHMSS.

And what I especially loved was how an innocent bystander was shot and killed, and that Forster was willing to return to the scene after the chase just to show the mess. It's rare in a Bond film that violence has consequences beyond those immediately involved.

[Skudor]

• The horse race adds a local flavour and colour;
• it adds pace and mirrors the Bond/Mitchell chase;
• it gives us the real world and real people living their lives, in contrast to the dark dungeons and workings of those protecting that world;
• its medieval roots and looks match the medieval barbarity of the torture being threatened beneath it.

Overall it adds to the actual action to make one of the most stunning and rich sequences I've seen in a movie in a long time.

[spynovelfan]

I think, like much else in this film, it switches between expectations.

Like some of the previous examples from Bond films, it is meant to give us some local atmosphere. I wouldn't say the junkanoo is integrated into the action, precisely, but the location is in some ways key to the film. Here, rather oddly, it isn't. Like the use of Bilbao in TWINE, it initially seems that it's thrown in there simply to give colour, but passes so fast that the colour could have been anywhere. This is heightened by several scenes in Italy, none of which seem particularly relevant to anything. I think in the car chase, for instance, Bond actually drives his car through the Carrera marble fields, or whatever they're called. Fantastic place, of course, but it's seen for about a second. Again, why Bilbao? Why Siena? Why Carrera? Not in the same way as Why the Bahamas or Why Istanbul?

However... there's something about the way this is filmed that manages to get across quite a lot of information in a very short period of time. Bilbao is not integrated at all in TWINE - there really is no reason for it to be there than to feature a cool place. And Siena initially appears the same, but in fact Forster has simply compressed - like he has done so much - the traditional idea of this sort of locale-hopping. There is a purpose to it - an ancient cultural scene of primeval competitiveness, an explosive chase through the streets about to find a parallel with Bond and Mitchell - but although it's very fleeting, the texture is there, in a way it really isn't in TWINE with Bilbao. You feel you're in Italy. But while the Connery films would give this sort of sensation for two or perhaps three places, in QoS we get the full works, and in 105 minutes we get the feeling of having been to a lot of places, and having really been to them. The idea is not just that Bond travels to exotic places: it also highlights that the villains are everywhere, as they say, and allows for some stunning contrasts. The beauty of Italy, the richness of the crowds and the feeling of a great ancient race going on, just quickly rendered... and the stillness of the Bolivian desert, the suffering on the other side of the world.

That's the sort of thing that's going on here, I think. I see QoS as rather like an iceberg: only an eighth is showing above the surface. Very unusual for a Bond film - richly rewarding, though.

[Mister Asterix]

There. Solved. snf has given the definitive answer, and zencat the short version.

[Loomis]

And what I especially loved was how an innocent bystander was shot and killed, and that Forster was willing to return to the scene after the chase just to show the mess. It's rare in a Bond film that violence has consequences beyond those immediately involved.

Bloody well right. It's one of the most striking, surprising and sobering touches in any Bond film ever. It's a shame that this sort of thing is undercut by the Brosnanesque likes of the dogfight/freefall, but, still, looking at it from a glass-half-full POV it's still a lot better than nothing.

[Mr. Blofeld]

And what I especially loved was how an innocent bystander was shot and killed, and that Forster was willing to return to the scene after the chase just to show the mess. It's rare in a Bond film that violence has consequences beyond those immediately involved.

Bloody well right. It's one of the most striking, surprising and sobering touches in any Bond film ever.

To make a proper comparison, it'd be as if Brosnan ran over a little Russian schoolgirl during the tank chase in GoldenEye; there, it'd be played for laughs, but here, it's sobering.

[dodge]

The point was atmosphere.

The atmosphere was pointless.

Honestly, sincerely, I can't even remember the scene. The faster the film went, the more bored I grew. I watched it, eyes open, but my jaw was slack.

[CM007]

And what I especially loved was how an innocent bystander was shot and killed, and that Forster was willing to return to the scene after the chase just to show the mess. It's rare in a Bond film that violence has consequences beyond those immediately involved.

Bloody well right. It's one of the most striking, surprising and sobering touches in any Bond film ever.

To make a proper comparison, it'd be as if Brosnan ran over a little Russian schoolgirl during the tank chase in GoldenEye; there, it'd be played for laughs, but here, it's sobering.

Brosnan running over a Russian School Girl with a tank for Laughs...WTF