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QoS: The post 9-11 Bond - SPOILERS


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#1 Bonita

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:17 AM

SPOILERS

Quantum of Solace is not a Bond film to be taken lightly. This is no breezy comedy with big stunts. This is a movie that channels James Bond via John LeCarré for the emotional content—and has much more to do with LeCarré than with Jason Bourne, despite stylistic similarities in the fight sequences.

It is easy to review the surface of a Bond film. The movies are as much about the shiny outer layer (Bond's clothes, his cars, his gadgets, the looks of the women and the looks of Bond himself) as they have ever been about espionage. So let's leave this behind along with camera placement, editing and even cinematography.

This film, as much as any other, shows Bond on a journey, gives him a character arc. So we drop style for content in this review.

Within a few minutes, we find Bond questioning a suspect who likely played a key role in the ultimate suicide of a woman he loved—Vesper—who turned out to be a double agent. M worries Bond is in it not only for Queen and Country, but for revenge. Bond protests, but he clearly has mixed motives. His motives become even more mixed when a mole turns the interrogation into utter chaos.

Bond soon finds himself in an interesting place: He cannot trust MI6 (there could be another mole - and indeed there is, only more highly placed). He finds the CIA cannot be trusted. And worst of all, can he trust that he will act only in the best interest of the greater good? Or will he chose the path that will only lead him to exact his vengeance?

Bond has never been a character for whom introspection sits well. In the novels, his brief looks backwards are bitter, ironic or both. His one memory of childhood detailed in the Fleming canon prompts him to mentally slam the file drawer shut on his past. For better or worse, Bond lives for the present, only significantly haunted by the past in one novel—You Only Live Twice.

So does Bond's emotional journey work in Quantum of Solace? Yes. Bond begins a barely controlled killing machine. He wants blood. He wants to hurt. He is, in this, like America after 9/11. And like America, he finds that death only begets more death, and in a chilling moment, the parallels to the past seven years of geopolitics come home as Bond sees the body of a foot soldier - a beautiful embassy worker in Bolivia whom he has seduced - drowned in oil, oil the West wishes it had. What has all the blood and death (and lust for oil) gotten him or us? Has he come any closer to avenging Vesper's fate? He still seems to care little for the fact that he and another mirror-image revenge-seeker (Camille - an erstwhile secret agent bent on avenging the rape and murder of her family) have uncovered the plot of Dominic Greene to control the water rights in Bolivia. But he believes Greene to be part of the larger organization of color-coded villainy. He does not raise alarms of an impending coup or of his discovery of a giant underground lake filled with the water needed by the choking nation. No, Bond gives only the information he needs to get key facts that will let him and Camille confront those they wish to kill. It's still all about him, all about vengeance.

Yet Bond's taste for death seems to be withering after seeing the trail of bodies continue to lengthen. He advises Camille how best to kill her target, and efficiently eliminates numerous bad men. Yet he stops short with Greene, a man who might be able to lead Bond back to the betraying lover of Vesper. In fact, when faced with the choice of letting Camille burn to death or taking Greene into custody, or more characteristically, killing him, Bond opts for trying to save Camille. When it seems that he will fail, and that she will die the same way she saw her parents die, Bond sees only one solution. In a scene reminiscent of the novel Moonraker, Bond silently prepares to kill Camille out of mercy rather than kill Greene out of vengeance. It is, he seems to feel, the right thing to do, closure to a journey that leads from from suicide to euthanasia with a bullet. Let the villains go, he seems to be saying. Let them chop off their own feet. After hearing that his former comrade—René Mathis—was tortured off of 007s incorrect suspicions, and listening to M tell Mr. White early on that he would likely be whisked off to a country where the niceties of human rights would not be honored, Bond himself may be wondering if, as Mathis comments (via Fleming) that the good guys and bad guys keep getting mixed up. Here Bond prepares to kill as an act of humanity.

Of course, Bond never has to pull that trigger, at least not while the gun is aimed at Camille's head. No, just the act alone seems to bring on heavenly intervention. Bond and Camille live, walking calmly from an inferno into purgatory—she now a wounded survivor who without a reason to kill is in search of a reason to live. Bond tells her to do what they should have done earlier—tell the world about the hidden water. For Bond, he sets Greene to wander the Bolivian desert. In a script device that echoes back to the oil crisis of the 70s, Bond gives Greene only oil to sustain him — something the more caustic and jingoistic Westerners declared should be the fate of the OPEC Ministers during the Arab oil embargo. The can of motor oil is a death sentence issued by 007, although one filled with irony—his own government, so hungry for oil, was perfectly willing to let Bolivians die of thirst. Is the oil can offered to Greene a warning to Downing Street and Washington D.C.? Are those who live for oil destined to die for it? When asked about the oil, Bond simply says to M later, "I can't help you." Is this his way to say he won't use his licence to kill to help feed the oil lust of America and Europe? Is it significant that he earlier drove off into the sunset in a hydrogen-powered vehicle from an exploding hydrogen-powered hotel? Regardless, too many have died in distant deserts so we can pump oil into engines, and there can be no mistaking the symbolism here.

Yet Bond has one more demon to face—Vesper's lover. Having sought this never-seen target through hell and back (literally) Bond finally faces the seedy man in a cheap apartment in Russia. Left alone by M and guards, Bond contemplates what to do with his power to play God. In 1962, Sean Connery barely lifted an eyebrow as he shot Prof. Dent in the back, changing the history of cinema in the process. Here, we do not see what Bond does, but we know he has learned that killing will not salve his grief, only mourning will. And, possibly, 007 realizes that choosing not to kill may be the greatest power of all. He tells M. she was right about Vesper, presumably about her being the driving force behind his actions. He realizes that he must once and for all let Vesper go in order to both be human and to be the cold, inhuman thing he must remain to do his job. And from seeing the way his government and the CIA view the world, he knows that someone must be there to be, if not a blunt instrument, at least a clear-eyed servant of the moral universe we wish to preserve.

And is this, too, the journey the US and UK are in the process of taking? Has the hollow taste of vengeance finally turned into a quest for something more? Has our licence to kill failed to quench our thirst for justice? Bond, at the end seems to have found something more while looking down the gun at his last potential victim. This is a film about thirst - thirst for oil, thirst for water, and thirst for solace—the greatest thirst of all. And this is something Bond finds, ultimately, by not firing his gun.

I can't wait to see where Bond may travel next.

Keep dancing...

Edited by Bonita, 17 November 2008 - 08:05 AM.


#2 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:26 AM

Very nice review.

#3 Bonita

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 06:48 AM

Very nice review.


Thanks, Tarl.

#4 ImTheMoneypenny

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 01:59 PM

Great review Bonita! Well thought out. Like Zorin Industries had, you hit the nail on the head with how I felt about this movie and wrote a better review than I could have. :) :(

Edited by ImTheMoneypenny, 17 November 2008 - 02:00 PM.


#5 Bonita

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 08:04 PM

Great review Bonita! Well thought out. Like Zorin Industries had, you hit the nail on the head with how I felt about this movie and wrote a better review than I could have. :) :(


Thanks, Moneypenny. Liked your review, too.

Keep dancing...

#6 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:07 PM

Very kool review with some very kool points. :(

#7 Ravenstone

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 07:14 PM

Oooo. Deep. Nice review

#8 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 08:27 AM

I guess my basic problem with your comments, and similar sentiments echoed in films like BATMAN BEGINS, is that they offer no solutions, they don't distinguish the world in black and white, and they try to make what really is a very simple dilemma into some sort of moral quandary that requires deep introspection. If you don't like the path that James Bond, Bruce Wayne, or Jack Bauer are embarking upon, what would you suggest? Letting the bad guys get away with their evil plans? Do you even consider them to be "bad guys"? If Camille doesn't go after Medrano, who does? Why? And how? Just let Medrano go? Let him twist in the wind? Let him die of old age?

How was Medrano supposed to get what was coming to him? Sit in a prayer circle with Bond and Camille and express his feelings? Write a book? Go to therapy to find out why he killed and raped so many people? Host a political fundraiser in his home for an up-and-coming presidential candidate? Like I said: some people deserve to be dead. There's no grey area for me.

We can make Bond as complicated as we want, but at the end of the film the audience must believe that Bond did the right thing because it saved lives or fulfilled a mandate for justice; what the films do not need is liberal hand-wringing from writers and directors afraid of what mealy-mouthed citizens in third-world shame holes think about the U.K., or U.S.


Well Gravity's Silhouette... like it or not the world isn't in black & white anymore (I guess that never was, but it is now that is massively accepted that fact), face it and learn to deal with that, because the Bond series had already did it.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 20 November 2008 - 08:29 AM.


#9 Loomis

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:55 PM

Some excellent points there, Grav, just as I've come to expect from you, you little beauty, you. :(

Let's get this straight: Bond is supposed to draw a valuable life lesson from Camille and her "revenge". Killing's like, bad, right? Revenge don't go down according to plan, 'coz it ain't that simple, yeah? Well, slap me in a skirt and call me Mildred. But just how much time does 007 spend agonising over, say, the innocent civilians who got mashed in the PTS car chase or the Palio pursuit? Not a dickybird, I'll bet. And now, having imbibed these supposedly hard-won truths about life and death and killing and revenge and humanity and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, what's the odds that our hero will simply continue on his merry way and spend a lifetime popping off faceless henchmen in the service of Her Maj?

Stone me, but where's my MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN DVD?

#10 double o ego

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:15 PM

Interesting review.

#11 Bonita

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 03:58 PM

Killing has always been a more touchy matter in Bond's cinematic universe than most realize, and the films have always tied into the zeitgeist of the day.

Bond has never been a "shoot them all and let God sort them out" type. He has a licence to kill, and he does not use that licence to be a mass murderer.

A few examples:
Dr. No - Bond does not kill Mr. Jones. He commits suicide. Does not kill the "blind mice" killers. They drive off a cliff chasing him. Does not kill Miss Taro - has her arrested to be questioned. Does kill Prof. Dent & random guard in the river on Crab Key. The death of Dent has been pointed out by many writers as a very cold moment in cinema. The man is unarmed. He may hold valuable information. But Bond has realized that this organization stretches far and wide in Jamaica. By killing Dent, Dr. No may believe Bond to be dead.

FRWL - Bond presumably kills in the battle in the gypsy camp and helps Kerim Bey kill the assassin escaping from the mouth of the poster. But when does he next kill? Donald Grant. He doesn't kill the truck driver, Rhoda, nor intentionally kill those chasing him in the boats. He shoots down the helicopter. He doesn't kill Rosa Klebb, either.

Point being, Bond doesn't just go around killing all the bad folks. As the films progressed (and moved away from Fleming), the "satisfying death" became a signature of the films. Let's kill someone in a way to make the audience laugh. I like these moments as much as the next guy. Let's threaten lives in a funny way to make someone talk. Bond holding Bambi and Thumper underwater until that talked? Remember Zukovsky flopping around in the caviar, nearly drowning? Or Sandor on the edge of the roof? Or, most graphically, Bond putting a bullet into Mr. White's leg from afar in CR?

Now, we can all agree that we can enjoy one kind of morality in a movie that may be very separate from morality we employ in our own lives. No one wants to hear the government's excuses for pursuing a high-speed car chase near a school that's just let out with tragic results. Few would support carpet bombing central Asia with nuclear weapons just to get Bin Laden. But in films, the hero is allowed quite a bit of leeway to kill someone that the audience doesn't like. And while we may be moving away from interrogation techniques and renditions that experts say produce unreliable confessions, I don't expect Bond to be living by the Geneva Convention any time soon.

Now, I would argue that Bond not killing Greene directly, or even torturing him per se, or his not killing Yusef, does not make Bond some icon of the peace movement. It does make him smarter. In For Your Eyes Only, Bond cautions against missions of revenge ("first you did two graves"). In this film, he aids Camille on her mission. Bond kills aplenty in this film. He shoots the Police Colonel in the head and blows away quite a few others. So does Camille. She does kill Medrano.

But the world is rarely black and white. This doesn't mean everyone goes free after a prayer circle, but it does mean that the Bond films have a wide moral universe to draw upon. Bond could kill Largo in Thunderball, but he must find the A-bombs. That is more important. Those must not be used. I think that we could all agree that no matter how bad Largo may be, satisfyingly killing him is not worth blowing Miami to bits. In this film, the filmmakers bring up some interesting issues. I think the filmmakers clearly feel that the US and UK compromised themselves morally because of their need for oil and their desire to avenge 9/11. You can hate that. I could be wrong. But I think there is a strong argument to be made here. But what do they do to Bond in this case? They create a story where he slowly rises above this. He may be driven by vengeance, but he finds solace. And that solace does not come from killing Greene or Yusef. In particular, he chooses not to kill Yusef.

Yet I find the movie very satisfying emotionally. I want to see it again this week. Bond in this film does not stop being a double-O. He seems to be evolving from "blunt instrument" to surgical device, a man whose ever-present anger is being locked away so he can do his job with precision. He's not a man who won't kill, but one who we can trust to know when to kill.

I think this strengthens the character rather than weakens him.

Keep dancing...

#12 avl

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:02 PM

Some excellent points there, Grav, just as I've come to expect from you, you little beauty, you. :(

Let's get this straight: Bond is supposed to draw a valuable life lesson from Camille and her "revenge". Killing's like, bad, right? Revenge don't go down according to plan, 'coz it ain't that simple, yeah? Well, slap me in a skirt and call me Mildred. But just how much time does 007 spend agonising over, say, the innocent civilians who got mashed in the PTS car chase or the Palio pursuit? Not a dickybird, I'll bet. And now, having imbibed these supposedly hard-won truths about life and death and killing and revenge and humanity and Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, what's the odds that our hero will simply continue on his merry way and spend a lifetime popping off faceless henchmen in the service of Her Maj?

Stone me, but where's my MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN DVD?


The lesson is about taking things personally - something that he can not afford to do in his line of work.

#13 Loomis

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:52 PM

First of all, Bond should spend no time thinking about the innocent civilians shot in Sienna; he didn't shoot them.


Ah, but you can argue that he played his part in their deaths. His crazed driving in PTS led to the deaths or injuries of innocents when the Quantum boys made their countermoves. Also, by pursuing an armed man, Bond created the conditions for a shootout in public that left a woman dead (probably) in Siena.

Do you see what I'm saying, Grav? By creating a "shades of grey" world (which is laudable.... I guess), the filmmakers have made it an awful lot greyer than perhaps they intended.

Now, we can all agree that we can enjoy one kind of morality in a movie that may be very separate from morality we employ in our own lives. No one wants to hear the government's excuses for pursuing a high-speed car chase near a school that's just let out with tragic results. Few would support carpet bombing central Asia with nuclear weapons just to get Bin Laden. But in films, the hero is allowed quite a bit of leeway to kill someone that the audience doesn't like. And while we may be moving away from interrogation techniques and renditions that experts say produce unreliable confessions, I don't expect Bond to be living by the Geneva Convention any time soon.


Very true. Personally, I'm against the death penalty (not that it's going to come to my country any time soon), but I must confess that I do enjoy the sight of Bond or McClane or whoever blasting a baddie to bits.

The lesson is about taking things personally - something that he can not afford to do in his line of work.


Fair enough.

#14 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 04:22 AM

I'm very doubtful about this aspect of QOS.

In one side, I completely agree and I'm a supporter of the political vision and content of this movie. But in the other hand, I don't really know if I want it developed in such explicit way and depth in a Bond film. I mean it's the same political view present in CR, and I would dare to say that it is a similar treatment give it to the earlier movies from the Cold War time, but in the previous entries it was showed in a more subtle way, that still provided space for some escapism.

Maybe I would prefer this type of content, in other kind of movies.

Edited by Mr. Arlington Beech, 21 November 2008 - 11:20 PM.


#15 Bonita

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:44 AM

Gravity,

First, my review and responses are written very quickly, so I apologize in advance for being inarticulate!

Certainly the Bond films are filled with hypocrisy. There is no consistent moral code. This film seems to be developing one, which intrigued me.

In this film, one of the things I think is notable is that Bond does not explain himself or get into much hand-wringing about his actions. He never makes any excuse for killing the Special Branch agent or anyone else for that matter. The closest we see to anything like that in my mind is when he holds the gun on Yusef at the end. And Craig (wisely, I think) shows nothing. No "acting" his internal mental process. I don't see any guilt in this film either. He's angry that Fields dies, and M lays on the guilt. I think her words sting. But M chews Bond out about Jill Masterson, too. So, for me, I don't see the emotional guilt. I see an arc, but deeply appreciate the lack of hand-wringing. In the cave / sink hole, I was so appreciative of Craig's performance when Camille asks if he lost someone. Nothing like pained (for me) over-reaction of Dalton leaving Leiter and his new bride in LTK.

And I feel like there is no shortage of Bond killing and things blowing up in QoS. But the larger point is certainly there. This film feels different. There is a weight to this film that is inescapable, and I think, uncomfortable for many viewers. Believe me, I keep talking to friends who tell me "I liked it, but it just didn't feel like a Bond film." And it doesn't. Neither did Majesty's or LTK. I think this one will be my "cult" favorite.

Back to the politics:

I want to state upfront before I dive in here that I respect your politics and am not out to change them or do more than make additional cursory historical points that rightly or wrongly, I think informed the filmmakers.

You are right about the UK not being attacked on 9/11. That said they were the US's most complicit ally in the Iraq adventure.

I think the argument about Iraq and oil comes from numerous places. There was Wolfowitz (sp?) saying the war would pay for itself because the new Iraqi government could pay back the costs with oil revenues. Further, after 9/11, the US targeted Iraq. I think you are entirely correct that Bush had Iraq in his sights before even being elected. From my limited reading, I believe this is seen as a major blind spot in his administration and in the Blair government. The point about oil being that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. But no action was taken to alienate such a valuable trading partner. And the entire Iraq war grew out of the unfinished state of the Gulf War, which, as you point out, really was about oil.

But accurate history has never been the Bond film's strong suit. M's 9/11 speech in CR is, according to a good article I read somewhere, false. There was a rumor of airline stocks being shorted, but the reality was they weren't. But Bond films play at the edges of history. They tease the popular notions, whether it is Howard Hughes being replaced by a double or detente leading to Soviet and British spies working together. What intrigued me was that after years of exposure of the ill-informed information spread by both the US and the Brits (yellowcake, 30 minute battlefield chemical weapons, massive stockpiles of banned weapons, Colin Powell's entire UN presentation) and the US's willingness to listen to tale-spinners and forgers who wanted Saddam out, it was fascinating to see Bond moving through that universe. I won't argue that the history that informs that universe is correctly stated by me here, but it is a popular perception of both the CIA and MI6 at this point.

I think in a lot of ways your points about W's desire to take down the man who, as I think he put it at one point, "tried to kill my daddy," may very much inform this film. Because I have watched the US go from tremendous support for the Iraq War to absolute disgust. The election results are a clear shift. I'm not saying the nation is right or anything like that. I'm just saying that I think all of the past seven years informs this film in a very interesting way.

But I want Craig's certainty to remain. I don't want a Bond filled with self-doubt. In this film, I think he has little doubt about his goals. They never change. The internal question is why he is pursuing those goals with such fervor.

Keep dancing....

#16 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:15 AM

What I think it should concern in the treatmennt to Bond character is the killing matter, and I'm glad the way Craig's Bond took that aspect, because it coincide with a personal view about it, but also because follow the vision of the Fleming's novels.

In the first chapter of the book Goldfinger, Bond resent the way in which he killed some henchman, and in the final chapter of Casino Royale, he decided to go after "the menace behind the spies, the menace that makes them spy", and not to just kill every evil guy (I think that was translated in the movie CR, with not killing Mr. White but capturing to interrogate him). That's make OO7 a more sophistacated hero.

#17 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:01 AM

Gravity,

First, my review and responses are written very quickly, so I apologize in advance for being inarticulate!

Certainly the Bond films are filled with hypocrisy. There is no consistent moral code. This film seems to be developing one, which intrigued me.

In this film, one of the things I think is notable is that Bond does not explain himself or get into much hand-wringing about his actions. He never makes any excuse for killing the Special Branch agent or anyone else for that matter. The closest we see to anything like that in my mind is when he holds the gun on Yusef at the end. And Craig (wisely, I think) shows nothing. No "acting" his internal mental process. I don't see any guilt in this film either. He's angry that Fields dies, and M lays on the guilt. I think her words sting. But M chews Bond out about Jill Masterson, too. So, for me, I don't see the emotional guilt. I see an arc, but deeply appreciate the lack of hand-wringing. In the cave / sink hole, I was so appreciative of Craig's performance when Camille asks if he lost someone. Nothing like pained (for me) over-reaction of Dalton leaving Leiter and his new bride in LTK.

And I feel like there is no shortage of Bond killing and things blowing up in QoS. But the larger point is certainly there. This film feels different. There is a weight to this film that is inescapable, and I think, uncomfortable for many viewers. Believe me, I keep talking to friends who tell me "I liked it, but it just didn't feel like a Bond film." And it doesn't. Neither did Majesty's or LTK. I think this one will be my "cult" favorite.

Back to the politics:

I want to state upfront before I dive in here that I respect your politics and am not out to change them or do more than make additional cursory historical points that rightly or wrongly, I think informed the filmmakers.

You are right about the UK not being attacked on 9/11. That said they were the US's most complicit ally in the Iraq adventure.

I think the argument about Iraq and oil comes from numerous places. There was Wolfowitz (sp?) saying the war would pay for itself because the new Iraqi government could pay back the costs with oil revenues. Further, after 9/11, the US targeted Iraq. I think you are entirely correct that Bush had Iraq in his sights before even being elected. From my limited reading, I believe this is seen as a major blind spot in his administration and in the Blair government. The point about oil being that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. But no action was taken to alienate such a valuable trading partner. And the entire Iraq war grew out of the unfinished state of the Gulf War, which, as you point out, really was about oil.

But accurate history has never been the Bond film's strong suit. M's 9/11 speech in CR is, according to a good article I read somewhere, false. There was a rumor of airline stocks being shorted, but the reality was they weren't. But Bond films play at the edges of history. They tease the popular notions, whether it is Howard Hughes being replaced by a double or detente leading to Soviet and British spies working together. What intrigued me was that after years of exposure of the ill-informed information spread by both the US and the Brits (yellowcake, 30 minute battlefield chemical weapons, massive stockpiles of banned weapons, Colin Powell's entire UN presentation) and the US's willingness to listen to tale-spinners and forgers who wanted Saddam out, it was fascinating to see Bond moving through that universe. I won't argue that the history that informs that universe is correctly stated by me here, but it is a popular perception of both the CIA and MI6 at this point.

I think in a lot of ways your points about W's desire to take down the man who, as I think he put it at one point, "tried to kill my daddy," may very much inform this film. Because I have watched the US go from tremendous support for the Iraq War to absolute disgust. The election results are a clear shift. I'm not saying the nation is right or anything like that. I'm just saying that I think all of the past seven years informs this film in a very interesting way.

But I want Craig's certainty to remain. I don't want a Bond filled with self-doubt. In this film, I think he has little doubt about his goals. They never change. The internal question is why he is pursuing those goals with such fervor.

Keep dancing....


About Dalton's overreaction specially in LTK, I'm absolutely agree, that's why I appreciate so much Craig performance as Bond, because he can show the same emotions as Dalton (and an even more diverse range, including humor) in a similar plot context, but without overact or loosing the coolness.

I can't stop thinking about that QOS is the movie that should have to be, but never was (even when I'm not such a big fan of this second Craig entry).

Regarding to politics... Bonita, do you think that the political view (or 'information' as you put it) developed in CR is coherent with the one from QOS??

#18 blueman

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:54 AM

Nice review. :(

Always liked the parts in the books where Bond goes all introspective about his job. We haven't seen enough of that in the films IMO, Bond's conundruming in QOS is barely a drop in that ocean. :) And very Fleming as he may have "feelings" yet is always about the work - as he tells M in the last line, "I never left." Truer words Bond has rarely spoken.

#19 Bonita

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 05:16 PM

Gravity,

In no way am I critiquing your politics. I respect them (or lack of them) and respect your views on Bond.

I think all but a few would agree that Saddam proved to be a very bad leader of Iraq and many suffered directly or indirectly as a result. There were actions he took that were really beyond the pale, terrible crimes against humanity.

I think for many, one question is proportionality. In the case of Saddam, was he a threat to the US? Lots of leaders out there are brutal and suppress ethnic or political opposition. Bush sold Saddam as a grave threat. Now, the US and UK had been enforcing a no-fly zone. We had 2/3rds of the country under our air cover for 12 years and had eliminated their border defense / threat against many of their neighbors. During this period, not one US life was lost, and Saddam was pinned down. Many of the most egregious crimes had happened either just after or well-before the invasion of Kuwait. I mean the gassing of the Kurds had happened I think in 1988, fifteen years before we invaded, and the US had detailed diplomatic dealings with Saddam after the attack. This does not mean I think he should have been left in power or not. He was a vile human with much power to inflict harm.

But Bush and Blair chose to listen to those who painted the worst picture of Saddam possible. There was Cheney's 1% doctrine. If there is a 1% chance that Saddam could be building a nuclear weapon, that is too much. Of course, at the same time, we were embracing Pakistan (and maybe we should have been - I don't know) which had nuclear weapons and had one of their top scientists who had been selling nuclear secrets to anyone out there. And then with the war, people just kept dying. Sure the numbers are very small compared to Vietnam or Korea, but this wasn't the easy, cheap, welcomed as liberators war that we were basically sold.

The biggest issue, I think, for many is just what you write: "Thousands of innocents civilians may have died; I don't dispute that." And, as you point out, many more could have died if the US and UK made different choices. We will never know. But the question is, how many died at our hands? Did Saddam's threat justify the actions taken? Did they justify the alarmist rhetoric that turned out to be false? Should their be consequences for being so fast and loose with the facts? Can you trust Bush, Blair, Obama or Brown? Or, as M puts it, "I have to know that you know who to trust."

Why do we do the things we do? This is the question I think Bond is asking himself. Is he after Greene because of what the man has done in Haiti or is trying to do in Bolivia? Is he after him to find Yusef? Is it professional, for the greater good, or is that incidental to the personal score Bond needs to square?

I absolutely think that the question the filmmakers may be toying with at the edges is not whether Saddam was a justifiable target, but whether our governments were honest with themselves about our justifications for having him as a target. And if you aren't, you can't act rationally. And I found by the end of QoS, Bond was action rationally, He left the personal behind in the snow in Russia, exactly where it should be.

Keep dancing...

#20 pgram

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:08 PM

I'm very doubtful about this aspect of QOS.

In one side I completely agree and I'm a supporter of the political vision and content of this movie. But in the other hand I don't really know if I want it developed in such explicit way and depth in a Bond film. I mean it's the same political view present in CR, I would there to say that it is a similar treatment give it to the earlier movies from the Cold War time, but in the previous entries it was showed in a more subtle way, that stil provided space for some escapism.

Maybe I would prefer this type of content, in other kind of movies.


Couldn't agree with you more. I find it relieving that at last, people have started commenting about the political issues in QoS. Even though I do think that, interesting as it is, Bonita's review sees more in the film that actually is there.

The Bond series, even through the most difficult times of the cold war (FRWL) have always been apolitical. The soviet union is never the villain. Soviet officers maybe, but not the country itself. And they 'll be wanted by the official Soviet Union as well (see Orlov, Koscov). I 've tried hard over the years to find any political remark in the bond series, mainly to prove a point to Communist friends of mine, who dismiss bond as a means of propaganda: it turned out, the only one i found was Moore telling Anya about lots of her countrymen spending time in Siberia. True, the western lifestyle is there, but, at the end of the day, Bond is an Englishman. And he 's also a male fantasy projection, which means he 's profoundly hedonistic. Now, hedonism doesn't only include sex, it includes luxury, food, drink. It even includes violence (brain centres involved in sexual desire are also responsible for violent behaviour, hence so many crimes are sex-related).

Now, this leads me to two points:

a. Bond has lost this hedonism lately. They try to sell it as an evolution, according to our zeitgeist. But, as far as I know, the human subconsious, which is where fantasies are located in, haven't evolved much in the last 50 years or so. So, instead of having a Bond enjoying himself, we have M telling him he 's a misogynist dinosaur, and nonsense of this kind. Take the songs, if you please. DAF is a sensual song, filled with innuendos. It 's almost foreplay. Or YOLT, a fantasy trip. And now, we have Sherryl Crow singing about murders on our love affair, or CR about loneliness and so on.

Mind you, Bond has to reflect. He has to show he hates his job, to gain credibility. Just not all the time.

b. QoS was the first political film in the series. I called it leftist, and i think it is. It is the first where we see the people suffering from the villains' plot (like I 've said before, the equivalent of showing junkies in LALD or LTK, or people losing their jobs and living in the streets because of GF's plan). It is the first where we see the implications of rape (as a comparison, think of Kill Bill: Lucy Liu's character has a story very similar to Camille's. You see that what happened is terrible, you get all the information required. Yet, you still enjoy every bit of it, because it's not given in a social worker's context. It 's still fun). It is the first where official governments are in the wrong, mixing gendres with films such as the 3 Days of the Condor and other post-watergate era.

I like the serious spy thriller approach for Bond. But, at the end of the day, it has to be feel-good escapism. Serious, witty, adult entertainment, but still escapism. If you ask if this can be done, the answer is yes. All the elements included in QoS were there in LTK. The revenge for someone loved. The renegade agent. The exotic locale. The death of a friend during action (Sharky). The agent with her own agenda (Pam/Camille). The stylish sets (Sanchez' house/Drug factory). The strange communication between the villains (prof. Wayne Newton's charity show/Tosca-by the way, the whole idea of Quantum doing business like that was rather stupid. Why ruin the enjoyment of Opera? How difficult could it be for someone to overhear, or intervene, like Bond did? On the contrary, LTK's idea was indeed brilliant). Everything (excluding Bond's state of mind) is there. Why the film didn't do so well is a different matter, not to be discussed here.

QoS is a film flirting with a different genre too much. It's not bad. But it can be dangerous for the James Bond brand, if it becomes a habbit.

Edited by pgram, 21 November 2008 - 06:12 PM.


#21 Bonita

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 06:51 PM

pgram,

I agree with much of what you say. I'm not sure Bond has always been apolitical, but certainly less political than the public perception. Certainly TLD was deeply political, taking a very strong stance against the Afghan war (while not condemning all the Soviets for it). Similarly, there is condemnation of the CIA and the UK's Foreign Office in this film, but not of the entire nation. There was a very strange feeling that came over me seeing the villagers trying to get the water out of the cistern. Was this appropriate for a Bond film? It was different to my reaction to seeing the burned villages in TLD or listening to Elktra talk of what the Soviets had done to Baku in TWINE (other examples where you can see real-world impacts). Even in From Russia With Love, you get a bit of the devastation of the "blood feud" between the gypsies and the Bulgarians. But this film does feel different.

And while I don't think any Bond film can be truly "leftist" (there is no explicit condemnation of the torture of Mathis or the potential torture of Mr. White), the film I agree is informed by a more liberal political view and that view's perspective on world events over the past 7 years.

Is this good for Bond? Bad for Bond? I don't know. But I find it fascinating. For the first time in a long time I felt there was a reason for the choices being made, and it wasn't just cheap, easy pop-political references in the service of making the film seem "current."

Keep dancing...

#22 pgram

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:47 PM

pgram,

I agree with much of what you say. I'm not sure Bond has always been apolitical, but certainly less political than the public perception. Certainly TLD was deeply political, taking a very strong stance against the Afghan war (while not condemning all the Soviets for it). Similarly, there is condemnation of the CIA and the UK's Foreign Office in this film, but not of the entire nation. There was a very strange feeling that came over me seeing the villagers trying to get the water out of the cistern. Was this appropriate for a Bond film? It was different to my reaction to seeing the burned villages in TLD or listening to Elktra talk of what the Soviets had done to Baku in TWINE (other examples where you can see real-world impacts). Even in From Russia With Love, you get a bit of the devastation of the "blood feud" between the gypsies and the Bulgarians. But this film does feel different.

And while I don't think any Bond film can be truly "leftist" (there is no explicit condemnation of the torture of Mathis or the potential torture of Mr. White), the film I agree is informed by a more liberal political view and that view's perspective on world events over the past 7 years.

Is this good for Bond? Bad for Bond? I don't know. But I find it fascinating. For the first time in a long time I felt there was a reason for the choices being made, and it wasn't just cheap, easy pop-political references in the service of making the film seem "current."

Keep dancing...


Like i said in my previous post, we agree on almost all points.

You 're right about Afghanistan, but still, come to think about it, we only see the soviet rule there through this camp, which is used by the baddies in the film. Somehow, this creates the illusion that the burnt villages and the suppression is the work of these 'bad' soviets, rather than the whole soviet occupation. But, like i said, that's only an illusion, an impression you get, to avoid delving too much into politics.
You 're right about the Electra speech too, but, apart from having fallen asleep by then (i really disliked that film), it is just words of a villain, she's not very stable mentally, and she 's overdramatic in her words, anyway. But, still, you 're right.
The gupsy-bulgarians war in FRWL i thought of as very picturesquelly and romantically depicted, nothing in there reminded me of the real world, even if it was based on true stories.

Anyway, I get your point, like you get mine. And you also mention another thing I wanted to make, the torture of White and Mathis by MI6. Mixing the goodies with the baddies even more... Whatismore, calling the film 'leftist', I know it might be an exaggeration, but then again, maybe not. Think of the villain's plan: it was a real situation in Southern America, i believe, and their plan was exactly what left southern american presidents accused the west of doing. Almost word by word.

Don't get me wrong on that, I 'm not making political conversation. I just like my Bond being apolitical. You say it's fascinating to have a more politically grounded bond. I understand you, but I fear it's doing more harm than good, also considering what might lie ahead in the films to come.

#23 Loomis

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:53 PM

I hate to derail such an interesting thread with pedantry, but is it ever made clear in QUANTUM OF SOLACE that Mathis was tortured? I don't recall such a thing, but may be wrong.

#24 Harmsway

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:03 PM

I hate to derail such an interesting thread with pedantry, but is it ever made clear in QUANTUM OF SOLACE that Mathis was tortured? I don't recall such a thing, but may be wrong.

Yes, it is. He mentions it in the subtitled dialogue (using the word "torture") to his gal.

#25 Bonita

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 09:47 PM

Pgram,

I think it is a dangerous thing, too. I'm not sure where it will lead. It is easy to watch the early Bonds and think of them as being almost period pieces with little connection to our lives. I think they were considered entertainments with very little political message. I don't think this film has an overt political message. But it does exist in the modern world just as From Russia With Love exists in its time. Or Goldfinger and You Only Live Twice deal with fears of China.

But this film is different, and I'm not sure where it leads. I certainly agree that they could go too far. I think for many viewers, this film has gone too far, but I think that has more to do with style than content.

I certainly always want that core of Bond to always be there!

Keep dancing...

#26 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 10:45 PM

Bonita,

Do you think that the political view (or 'information' as you put it) developed in CR is coherent, with the one from QOS??

#27 spynovelfan

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 11:14 PM

I mean, since 9/11 the U.S. has not suffered another attack on the homeland, nor against its embassies or warships like they had suffered during the 1990's against the WTC (1993), the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania (1998), the Khobar Towers (1996), the U.S.S Cole (2000), and the destruction of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and a helper of Middle Easty origin whom the Clinton administration attempted to hide the involvement of (1995).


Just out of interest - I'm sure I could look it up, but I'm not sure where - was the phrase 'the homeland' commonly used in the States before September 11 2001? I hadn't heard of it, or if I had I think I would have asssociated it with 'heartland' and country music, but was it widely used by Americans before those particular attacks? I'd be interested to know.

#28 Mr. Arlington Beech

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 12:50 AM

I hate to derail such an interesting thread with pedantry, but is it ever made clear in QUANTUM OF SOLACE that Mathis was tortured? I don't recall such a thing, but may be wrong.

Yes, it is. He mentions it in the subtitled dialogue (using the word "torture") to his gal.


Right, but then again that using of torture, only appear explicited in QOS, not in CR. And that's what it makes so different, in this regard, to QOS.

#29 Bonita

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:27 AM

Bonita,

Do you think that the political view (or 'information' as you put it) developed in CR is coherent, with the one from QOS??


I don't. I think CR is much more of a "war on terror" movie. There is no doubt that the UK and US are sided against a real threat. There is no intimation that the goverments of those two nations might be tempted to do business with him (other than give him sanctuary.


This film, in my opinion, is much more about the fog of that war, the battle between self-interest and the greater good - whether that self-interest is Bond's desire for vengeance or the US's desire for supposed Bolivian oil.

Keep dancing...

#30 Major Tallon

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 02:42 AM

I mean, since 9/11 the U.S. has not suffered another attack on the homeland, nor against its embassies or warships like they had suffered during the 1990's against the WTC (1993), the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania (1998), the Khobar Towers (1996), the U.S.S Cole (2000), and the destruction of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and a helper of Middle Easty origin whom the Clinton administration attempted to hide the involvement of (1995).


Just out of interest - I'm sure I could look it up, but I'm not sure where - was the phrase 'the homeland' commonly used in the States before September 11 2001? I hadn't heard of it, or if I had I think I would have asssociated it with 'heartland' and country music, but was it widely used by Americans before those particular attacks? I'd be interested to know.


"Homeland" wasn't used here in the heartland.