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An A to Zed of Q of Ess


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#121 Mister E

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 04:31 AM

To be honest, I think of YOLT as being rather toneless and as atmospheric as The Void.

Let's not exaggerate, JC. I know you despise the film, but let's give credit where credit is due! All quibbles with a slapdash story and lazy performances aside, the sheer visual and musical qualities of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE make it one of the most distinctively atmospheric Bond films of them all.

It just oozes a very dream-like, surreal quality from the very beginning, all due to the beautiful marriage of Gilbert's visual sensibilities, Adam's set design, and Barry's music. Bond has never been quite so strikingly bizarre. There's also a rich sense of exoticism, and one of the few Bonds to really get that travelogue feel in place.

And Barry delivers his most haunting and lush Bond score, a rich cornucopia of sound that is only equalled by his work on ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE. The way it accentuates each scene gives it oodles of atmosphere and exoticism. Watch how beautifully it adds a mournful quality to the death of Aki, or to the shots of Bond and Kissy in the boat. Breathtaking.

John Barry's music adds to the lush atmosphere yes but dark ? Please. Dark is when the consequences seem long term and not just expendable gimmicks, which YOLT had in full force.

You'll find that I didn't use the word "dark" once in the post you quoted.


Oh dear I suppose you are right, sorry. Well then, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE is a visual masterpeice but it's a complete piece of :(. Fair enough ? :)

#122 Bondian

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 04:43 AM

It's getting tiresome hearing 'M' saying something like "we don't know if we can trust you".

It is, but I think this film resolves that line of questioning. M's been doubting Bond throughout (partially because she remembers the events of CASINO ROYALE, partially because Bond does some questionable things, and partially because she doesn't have a full grasp of the situation), but by the end of it, she's come to have faith in him.

As you say he did some questionable things in Casino Royale, and in this one he's even worse. But at the end of both films, they kiss and make up.

In fact, the M/Bond relationship was one of the things I really enjoyed about QUANTUM OF SOLACE. Sure, she travels more than seems necessary (not that M hasn't been known to travel throughout the franchise), but this film develops a real sense of genuine respect and trust between the two of them that I hope carries through into the next few films.

For me, it was like 'Treasure Hunt'. Bond is constantly communicating with 'M' on a mobile phone (would it work in some of the places he was in?) whilst they knew exactly where he was.

Bond could have said;

"'M'. Just had a dump"

"Bond. We're tracking it now"

Bond should be able to think for himself, and not have to 'report in' all the time.

#123 Harmsway

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 04:50 AM

As you say he did some questionable things in Casino Royale, and in this one he's even worse.

I don't think he's anywhere near as wild in QUANTUM OF SOLACE as he was in CASINO ROYALE, to be honest.

But at the end of both films, they kiss and make up.

I dispute whether there was a "kiss and make up" finale to CASINO ROYALE. M wants to talk to him, and rightly so, but I don't get the sense that she really has any full level of trust in him. I think the dynamic of their relationship in QUANTUM OF SOLACE follows perfectly from where they were in CASINO ROYALE.

#124 Bondian

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 05:09 AM

As you say he did some questionable things in Casino Royale, and in this one he's even worse.

I don't think he's anywhere near as wild in QUANTUM OF SOLACE as he was in CASINO ROYALE, to be honest.

Take the boat scene for example. He nearly hurts himself bashing into the boat that's carrying Camille. (had to laugh at this scene). He dumps Mathis in a skip, is informed by his best buddy Felix that he's only got 30 seconds. That's pretty wild to me. :(

But at the end of both films, they kiss and make up.

I dispute whether there was a "kiss and make up" finale to CASINO ROYALE. M wants to talk to him, and rightly so, but I don't get the sense that she really has any full level of trust in him. I think the dynamic of their relationship in QUANTUM OF SOLACE follows perfectly from where they were in CASINO ROYALE.

What about Bond saving 'M' in The World is not Enough? They've kissed and make up in the last six movies.

#125 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 12:25 AM

Saw QUANTUM OF SOLACE today. With a few reservations, I loved it. So, then, sans further ado, I present my Jimtastic "review". Beware SPOILERS, as well as the sort of feeble attempts at unnecessary so-called comic relief that the Bond series seems thankfully to have left behind for now.

A is for a purple-faced Alan Partridge shouting "STOP GETTING BOND WRONG!!!!!!!!", forgetting, of course, that it's actually impossible to get Bond wrong (or at least curiously difficult to do so). I mean, you can't even get him wrong if you put him in outer space (mind you, I say this as a lover of MOONRAKER, a film I understand some Bond fans Refuse to Accept™, although I feel sorry for such people) or have him played by a blond little squirt whose face suggests an experiment to mate Vladimir Putin with Sid James. Indeed, the more you go in directions that - on paper, at least - seem to guarantee an outcome of "getting Bond wrong", the more likely you are to get him stunningly right. Counterintuitively enough.

See, Bond is nothing if not a broad church, and I honestly don't believe it possible for a Bond fan to be a "traditionalist". I mean, think about it. How many franchises have chopped and changed styles as much as Bond (both literary and cinematic), virtually always coming out stronger for it?

I always find it bizarre when Bond fans appear resistant to change, for change is the one thing that has always saved the series' bacon. Indeed, I think a Bond fan who's resistant to change is almost a contradiction in terms. Eon has always been smart enough to know when to shake up The Formula™, and it's in change that you'll find the lifeblood of Bond, the very reason for its extraordinary longevity and success.

And if there's one thing even a little green man from Mars probably knows about QUANTUM OF SOLACE, it's that it's

Bold. And different.

Now, C is for Craig Daniels. I feel it's almost unnecessary to mention Cregg, for at this point in the long and glorious history of 007 our Dan really ought to go without saying. His only serious rival is the Connery of the first three films. Gratuitous and unpleasant though it may be to boost the current incumbent by slagging his predecessors, the others (save for Sean) are basically just :(ing wankers by comparison. Craig owns James Bond. You may think Eon and Ian Fleming Publications own James Bond, but they don't - he's owned by the Cragmeister. End of.

As everybody's favourite blinger with a slick trigger finger for Her Majesty ("That's because you know what I can do with my slick trigger finger, Ma'am"), Craig is absolutely flawless. Flawless!

Don't tell me that the PTS of QoS doesn't show 007 at his absolute badass bestest. I thought GOLDENEYE had a terrific start, that GOLDFINGER had the daddy of all PTSes, that CASINO ROYALE relaunched our boy with a bang, that THE SPY WHO LOVED ME started well, that TWINE and DAD had decent pre-credits sequences. Well, you know what?

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW I WAS BORN!!!!!!!!

This car chase. Its balls-to-the-wallness. Its brevity. Its utter coolmother[censored]erness. Its wonderful opening shot and its, erm, intercutting and that. It's---- Dude, how I'm even still here to tell the tale....

The Editing of the action scenes in the early part of this flick is so SWEEEEEEEEEEEET that editors Matt Chessé and Richard Pearson should instead have been credited as Juxtapositioners of Juicy Stuff That's So Sweet It's Like Sugar (told ya my stabs at humour would be poor, didn't I?). The Palio pursuit makes Bourne (yes, I've mentioned him - sue me) look like Grandpa Simpson. It makes John McClane look like John McCain (oh, shut up, Loom, you're not funny).

And I'll tell you what I love about the Palio stuff, sadistic though it makes me sound: I love it that

Spoiler
. It's something I've wanted to see in Bond since, well, ever. (Geeks may be reminded of an episode in NEVER DREAM OF DYING.) Makes it more gritty, like. Seriously, though, it's a touch that carries a real charge.

The makers of QUANTUM OF SOLACE made a smart choice in hiring Herr Doktor Forster, for the bald boffin's visual flair is a thing to behold. He's a stylish little blighter, I'll give him that. And in collaboration with colleagues like production designer Dennis Gassner and a director of photography who for the moment shall remain nameless 'coz his surname doesn't begin with an H, he's given us a Bond yarn with such an abundance of beautiful images that it's up there not only with the likes of YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE and CASINO ROYALE but also with the works of Wong Kar Wai and his cinematographical cohort Chris Doyle. But it ain't all fashion mag spread stuff, oh no - I never reckoned, for instance, that we'd ever in a Bond flick see such a realistically grotty London skyline as the one that's visible through the windows of a villain's flat. I didn't quite know what to make of it, like much in this movie. But I liked it a lot.

I is, of course, for Ian Fleming, without whom, etc. Moving on swiftly (to quote Terry Christian):

Jason Bourne. Which starts with a J. As does James Bond. Did you see what I did there? Now, look, let's not pretend that Jason Bourne has not been an influence - such a dodging of the facts insults the intelligence. That Bond has always absorbed outside influences (whether themselves Birthed By Bond™ or not) is no disgrace to Bond, and is also a huge reason for the continued success and relevance of 007. The day that the Bond series takes its finger off the pulse is the day that it dies. And as a Bourne fan as well as Bond fan I'm delighted by the Bourne influence on the Craig era. Eon picked the right role model. As usual.

As with the last two Bourne outings, THE BOND SUPREM----, sorry, QUANTUM OF SOLACE doesn't feature much Kiss Kiss (although it does boast some genuinely erotic, erm, little touches [fnarr]), concentrating instead on Bang Bang. Which is something that it does bloody well.

Although I still maintain that the dogfight/freefall is a fundamentally Brosnanesque affair that doesn't belong in what is otherwise generally an appropriately gritty and Craigian motion picture. Along with the Haiti boat chase (which I found both extraneous and underwhelming), it's something I wish had been excised. Which leads me to what is quite possibly my number one gripe about QUANTUM:

I think it's too Long. Yep, you read that right. I know that it's The Shortest Bond Film Ever™, and the way that people have harped on about its running time it's as though Eon has given us a Mack Sennett short, but I actually found it overlong. I think it could have lost ooh, twenty minutes, say - most of those minutes action-filled. It just gets repetitive after a while, and the action (which is initially blinding) does get less impressive as the film goes on.

Still, there's always Mathis, a sort of father figure to our hero around whom some of QUANTUM's finest moments seem to converge, like flies around a golden turd. When he's onscreen, even Bond has some stiff competition in the coolness stakes, and his presence is responsible not only for some of the flick's most emotionally affecting bits (where you can almost sense Fleming smiling down on the filmmakers, albeit that this ain't exactly Fleming's vision of Mathis, but old Ian is, I trust, smiling down indulgently) but also for one of its funniest bits. At least, I think it's a funny bit - it may have been unintentional, and I may have read way too much into it, but I almost spat my popcorn Simon Pegg-style onto the back of the person in front of me when Bond goes up to the door of Mathis' villa and---- you'll love this, I promise, Bond knocks on the door
Spoiler
I nearly died. It was beautiful. If I've misinterpreted this bit, I just don't even want to know.

Where are we up to? Oh, N. Well, having - I sincerely hope *surveys room with cold Craigian stare* - laid the bogey that this film has No humour, it's time, I think, to move on to the crushing inevitability that is the unloved season of the deeply fannish question of whether QUANTUM OF SOLACE measures up to such classics of Bondage as ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE.

"Too early to say, squire," is my reply, "although it's safe to say that it's one of the ten best Bond pictures ever. Probably. I don't think it's as perfect as CASINO ROYALE, by any stretch, for it does have its flaws. But when it's good, it's very, very good, and, frankly, that's all that I care about right now."

What would those flaws be, then? Well, the Plot, as others have noted, is Pants. But even Fellmmmming was responsible for more than a few plot holes, gaps in logic and assorted howlers, so I ain't that bothered. As QUANTUM's supporters (hi, ACE and Zorin, if you've made it this far) have stated, this is something of A Lean, Mean Novella of A Bond Film™ (although, as I say, I'd argue that it's actually rather too long, overburdened with unnecessary action). As I pontificated on another thread t'other day:

Fleming's much-maligned THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN is like a dub version of a Bond novel, with the occasional snippets of trad Bond that drop in and out of the mix being swamped by an emphasis on echo and reverb that floods the book with atmosphere. Critics have sneered at TMWTGG as a slight piece of work, a novella lacking substance, but it's all about the bass and riddim, making it arguably the most vibrant of Bond books, Fleming as a dancehall selector conjuring a sensual shadowplay of silhouettes through the sweat and ganja smoke. It's a novel to be felt, not read, and is, in its way, one of the greatest treasures of the Bond universe - certainly one of the most surprising.

I feel kinda the same way about QUANTUM. Y'know.

But, yeah, I have my QUANTUM OF QUIBBLES. The climax, featuring an assault by Bond and Camille (the latter here filling Jinx's shoes somewhat tiresomely as a Buttkicking Babe™) on a desert hotel so chic and minimalist that it doesn't appear to have any guests, or staff, or.... anything: this climax is MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE IIish, groaning with ripe dialogue that, as in other scenes, really ought to have been looked at again by the filmmakers. Too often do characters come out with lines like "But what will the CIA do when they find out they've been burned?", lines that just seem hammy and cliché-ridden and, well, wrong. Which is a pity, since there's so much about QUANTUM that's absolutely dead-on

Right.

The Stuff at the opera house, for instance. Amazing. I thought it was going to be like the part in FACE/OFF where "Over the Rainbow" plays incongruously over a shootout, but it's, erm, not. It is really cool, though, and a real treat for the eyes.

TOSCA aside, there ain't much musical awesomeness in QUANTUM. Arnold's okay but little more ("No Interest in Dominic Greene", which you'll find on the soundtrack CD, has a wonderfully YOLTish Barry flavour, though), and I can't quite decide where I stand on "Another Way to Die". It's awful, it truly, truly is, but at the same time it's got a screamingly camp quality and similarity to Lulu's "The Man With the Golden Gun" that I can but enjoy.

Until I saw it, I didn't know what to think about the opening credits animation. Obviously. But, actually, I still don't. I admire it, perhaps more than I actually like it, possibly because, like many other things about QUANTUM, it's so obviously a case of GETTING BOND WRONG!!!!!!!! that's it just deliciously right. It seems much more appropriate to a '70s sci-fi flick from MGM like LOGAN'S RUN or WESTWORLD. But, hey, that's cool. And, besides, the PTS is so flat-out incredible that the animation could have been replaced by clips from LAST OF THE SUMMER WINE and still I'd have been geeking out.

It's a Very vibrant film in places, QUANTUM OF SOLACE, and it's this vibrancy, this visual verve, that carries it through its lumpy bits and confusing (okay, call me thick if you like, I don't care, sticks and stones....) passages, along with Craig's magnificent performance. He's ably supported by Giancarlo G, Olga K (kah, these foreigners with their difficult surnames!), Mat A and even (and this surprised me, given the stick she's gotten) Gemma Arterton. The guy who plays Medrano, Joaquim Phoenix or whoever - this cat is creepy. Brrrrrrrr. Vicious little so-and-so.

Dench ain't too shabby, either, although, c'mon, I did eventually start feeling that she's so ridiculously omnipresent, seemingly anticipating 007's every Bournian lightning-speed switch of location, that she must be a telepathic teleporter. And, I'm sorry, but look, the final scene. In a shabby apartment. In Moscow. If it isn't Bourne then I, my friends, am Daniel Craig. Given Forster's penchant for a striking font, Would. It. Have. Killed. Him. to set this final encounter in, say, Shanghai or Seoul or Tokyo (giving him a few lovely Chinese ideograms to play with), or, I dunno, Bombay or somewhere else where A. Bond's never been (or not been recently), B. (and more to the point) Bourne's not just visited yesterday, and C. they write in eyecatching scripts?

At the very least, you wouldn't get Wankers on the internet complaining: "but it's copied from the final scene of The Bourne Supremacy, Eon have lost the art of makign Bond films they're just ripping of Jason BoiurneandFlemmmmmmmming would be rolling his grave!".

X

Yeah, I really enjoyed QUANTUM OF SOLACE, by and large. Since Zorin doesn't reckon films ought to be given ratings out of 10, I'm delighted to give it a very respectable 8. But I ain't gonna say out of what. :)

And, oh, yeah,

BOND IS BACK! :)


finally, I get to read this review. Excellent. The Bourne Supremacy ending(in Russia?)didn't bother me. It was great. Reminds me of my favorite scene from the Living Daylights.And it had a great sense of closure.

#126 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:27 PM

Having now seen QUANTUM OF SOLACE twice, my opinion remains pretty much the same: it's splendid stuff, on the whole, but with some major flaws. 7 out of 10.

On second viewing, I was really struck by just how cool and charismatic a villain Greene is, and by how this is a film that's truly carried by its performances - Craig, Kurylenko, Amalric, Dench, Giannini, Arterton, Wright, David Harbour (Gregg Beam), Christensen and Taubman are all superb. Like CASINO ROYALE, QUANTUM OF SOLACE shines in large part due to an incredible ensemble cast on top form and striking sparks off each other.

Some of my favourite moments don't even involve Bond - I really love that scene in which Greene and Medrano are conducting their final negotiations at the desert hotel. Not much "happens", but the scene drips atmosphere and tension, as well as fine acting. It's at such points that one almost forgets one is watching a Bond film, so rich is QUANTUM in characterisation and detail, and so full of - pardon the expression - arthouse flair.

And it's also at such points that I find myself wishing that Forster and co. had stripped away The Bond Trademarks™ even further. One of the problems with QUANTUM is not that it junks too much of "the formula" - it's that it doesn't junk it enough. The gunbarrel at the end is jarring after the emotional wallop of the final scenes in Russia. I don't wish that the filmmakers had put it in "its proper place" at the beginning of the flick - I wish that they'd scrapped it altogether.

And I still think that, far from being too short, QUATUM is actually overlong. If only it had lost the boat chase (flat, dull and incomprehensible) and the Brosnanesue monstrosity that is the dogfight/freefall.

Going back to Greene and what a cool dude he is, I'm reminded of something I read once on the subject of A VIEW TO A KILL, which pointed out that an odd thing about that film was that the most of the good guys (Bond, Tibbett, Q, M, Moneypenny, Gogol) were old and clapped-out, while the baddies (Zorine, May Day, Jenny Flex and so on) tended to be young, dynamic and attractive.

I think there's a similar thing going on with QUANTUM: the goodies, i.e. America and Britain, are represented by a corrupt, oil-hungry CIA and by a British secret service that goes in for torture and appears to be a major tool in a total surveillance database state. Compared to which, are the Quantum folks really all that terrible? Are they not just enterprising businesspeople who cut a few corners? Unlike the likes of Tim Pigott-Smith's stuffy old Foreign Secretary, Greene and Elvis are youthful and hip, and they quite probably do do some good for the environment on the side! And judging by the presence of women in the organisation (see the opera sequence), Quantum is clearly more than simply an old boys' club.

So there we go: QUANTUM OF SOLACE is the new A VIEW TO A KILL. :(

#127 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:49 PM

And it's also at such points that I find myself wishing that Forster and co. had stripped away The Bond Trademarks™ even further. One of the problems with QUANTUM is not that it junks too much of "the formula" - it's that it doesn't junk it enough.


Looks like Eon went the right way. You thought they didn't ditch the Bondian elements enough while others think they ditched it too much. You thought it a 'problem'. It's funny that a few others here thought the, er, problem was actually very much the opposite.

Which goes to show that you can't please 'all' Bond fans...so the best tactic is to please 'many' of the older ones and create 'many more' new ones. Which is what they did...are doing.

Your opinion is one extreme, Loomy...there are posts upon posts where members are unhappy because they don't see enough Bondian Trademarks.

I'll happily sit somewhere in the middle and be pleased that they (Eon) mixed it up nicely enough to make it (Q0S) slightly uniqe and interesting while still being very James Bond.

And there's no way Q0S is the new AVTAK simply because the premise you base it on is incorrect. The Bond in Q0S is younger than the villians and even more 'hip' than them. So, I don't think your theory and analogy hold water. Further the Q0S Bond is WAY younger than the AVTAK Bond (who's basically on his last legs.)

Lastly, i'm happy you saw something different in your second viewing. I'm sure there's enough 'depth' in it that you'll see something even 'newer' on your third.

:(

#128 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:43 PM

And there's no way Q0S is the new AVTAK simply because the premise you base it on is incorrect. The Bond in Q0S is younger than the villians and even more 'hip' than them. So, I don't think your theory and analogy hold water. Further the Q0S Bond is WAY younger than the AVTAK Bond (who's basically on his last legs.)


Well, in a way that kinda proves my point: which organisation do you think Craig's Bond would naturally feel more at home with: the corrupt, oil-hungry CIA led by the likes of Beam, who have no class or flair; the stuffy old British secret service commanded by pompous politicians who condone torture and whose primary goal appears to be stripping people of their human rights; or the informal, trendy, freethinking Quantum, which consists of thrusting, dynamic folk with a healthy disregard for "the rules"?

I'm not talking about which side Craig's Bond would support, having carefully thought about all the rights and wrongs. Clearly, he'd side with America/Britain over Quantum, and that's what he does do, for at the end of the day Quantum are criminals and the American/British electorate does at least have the theoretical power to remove its "bad apples". I'm just saying, Craig's Bond would seem to have a lot in common with some of the Quantum mob and that in some ways they're the sort of people he might naturally gravitate towards.

I think the best movie villains are not repulsive monsters but people with as much charm, style and coolness as the heroes, if not more so. Think Alan Rickman in DIE HARD, or Hannibal Lecter. Greene is very much in that tradition, as was Mikkelsen's Le Chiffre. The best villains have a seductive quality that has the audience almost rooting for them. This is something that the Craig era is getting wonderfully right. :(

#129 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:48 PM

Where do you rate Craig as James Bond, Loomis? Taking into acccount everything such as him doing a lot of stunts, working out to make his body look 'right', delivery of lines, acting chops, etc.

#130 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 02:55 PM

Where do I rate him? I think he's terrific, probably the best Bond ever, and maybe even better than Sean.

I was always a huge Craig supporter (LAYER CAKE immediately convinced me that he'd be a brilliant 007), and was delighted when it was confirmed that he had the role. He's the single greatest asset Eon has and is surely one of the most important figures ever in the history of Bond. I know that when Brosnan appeared on the scene, people were saying he was "born to be Bond" and that he'd singlehandedly saved the franchise, but I do think Craig is outstanding.

Now, he hasn't done anything singlehandedly - this wonderful new era of Bond that started with CASINO ROYALE wouldn't have happened without the work of many other people, e.g. Barbara Broccoli, Martin Campbell, Paul Haggis, Amy Pascal and no doubt dozens of others who are more behind-the-scenes and more unsung, but Craig is still probably the jewel in the crown. I don't have a single bad word to say about him.

That said, I do think CASINO ROYALE is a much better showcase for his talents than QUANTUM OF SOLACE, but that's largely due to my belief that CR is a perfect film (as well as a perfect Bond film), whereas QoS is excellent on the whole but still rather flawed.

#131 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:03 PM

I'd like to see what Craig does as "the finished article" as a 00 through an entire movie. Bond 23 will be that movie.

I think Connery was sharp as a pin in Goldfinger and Thunderball. Still had some way to go in Dr No and then was horribly overweight, greying and disinterested/uninteresting by Diamonds Are Forever.

If Craig nails it in Bond 23 there won't even be a debate. Plus I like his work ethic and he's a relatively humble person which I think adds to his likability.

#132 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

Plus I like his work ethic and he's a relatively humble person which I think adds to his likability.


Yeah. He has a certain Rocky Balboa-ish "underdog" quality about him (how sweet it was to hear first of his casting and then to watch his spectacular success after all the Craignotbonders and naysayers slamming him because of his looks!), and this transfers very effectively to his Bond.

#133 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:16 PM

...so rich is QUANTUM in characterisation and detail, and so full of - pardon the expression - arthouse flair.

And I still think that, far from being too short, QUATUM is actually overlong. If only it had lost the boat chase (flat, dull and incomprehensible) and the Brosnanesue monstrosity that is the dogfight/freefall.



Two things from the above:

1. What do you say to people that say QOS is "wall to wall action and no characterization and no dialoge and that DC doesn't get a chance to act."?

2. I didn't see the aerial set piece as a "dogfight". It was a "pursuit" a "hunt". The DC3 was a sitting duck with no ammunition to "fight" back with against the machine guns of the fighter plane and the helicoptor. [What it was was a Silver-vs-Black-against-a-backdrop-of-Beiges artistic treat. Visually stunning, I think.]

#134 Judo chop

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:17 PM

I was waiting for your 2nd review Loom. The first was just too long. :)

(jk. I read them both.)

Nothing but one thing about your recent critique surprises me. And that is your ‘rating’: 7 out of 10. Looking at the rather short list of complaints mixed in with what sounds like a great deal of enthusiasm, I’d have concluded you thought of QOS as at least an 8 or 9. Heck, if you’re going to remain standing by your MWTGG as #1, why not just throw the full ‘10’ at it?

I particularly like this comment:

I think <Craig's> terrific, probably the best Bond ever, and maybe even better than Sean.


It has a logical-on-the-surface, nonsensical-BS-below quality about it which I enjoy.

Oh, and I hadn’t picked up on the Bond theme door-knocking rhythm at all. Has that been either debunked or proven yet? Hopefully the latter. Funny, since all this recent talk about how LTK and QOS are so similar, here’s yet another potential similarity… since LTK features the Bond theme in the form of percussive bullet ricochets from the side of the semi. :(

#135 Judo chop

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:26 PM

1. What do you say to people that say QOS is "wall to wall action and no characterization and no dialoge and that DC doesn't get a chance to act."?

2. I didn't see the aerial set piece as a "dogfight". It was a "pursuit" a "hunt". The DC3 was a sitting duck with no ammunition to "fight" back with against the machine guns of the fighter plane and the helicoptor. [What it was was a Silver-vs-Black-against-a-backdrop-of-Beiges artistic treat. Visually stunning, I think.]


I know you didn’t ask, but since I enjoy the topic, I will answer:

#1. I believe there is less dialogue in QOS than we’re used to. Of course it's a shorter Bond film than we're used to. But suppose we say that even proportionally there's less.... that can mean either there’s less GOOD dialogue, or there’s less BAD dialogue. Prove to me it’s the former and then we can discuss, but I think you’ll have a time at trying. In ANY event, it’s emotion, not words that count. If an actor can convey an emotion in less than a couple words – or in even NO words (eg. Felix’s face when Beam says to him “I need to know you value your career”) – that is what is known as GOOD acting.

#2. I agree. It’s Bond undermanned and underequipped, proving he’s the smarter fighter.

#136 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:35 PM

Where do I rate him? I think he's terrific, probably the best Bond ever, and maybe even better than Sean.

I was always a huge Craig supporter (LAYER CAKE immediately convinced me that he'd be a brilliant 007), and was delighted when it was confirmed that he had the role. He's the single greatest asset Eon has and is surely one of the most important figures ever in the history of Bond. I know that when Brosnan appeared on the scene, people were saying he was "born to be Bond" and that he'd singlehandedly saved the franchise, but I do think Craig is outstanding.

Now, he hasn't done anything singlehandedly - this wonderful new era of Bond that started with CASINO ROYALE wouldn't have happened without the work of many other people, e.g. Barbara Broccoli, Martin Campbell, Paul Haggis, Amy Pascal and no doubt dozens of others who are more behind-the-scenes and more unsung, but Craig is still probably the jewel in the crown. I don't have a single bad word to say about him.

That said, I do think CASINO ROYALE is a much better showcase for his talents than QUANTUM OF SOLACE, but that's largely due to my belief that CR is a perfect film (as well as a perfect Bond film), whereas QoS is excellent on the whole but still rather flawed.


I think QOS is superior in terms of action and locales.Here's a breakdown of chapters and standard elements: :(

Casino:Pretitle, free running, embassy assault vs Quantum: awesome car chase, rooftop chase, art gallery shootout...advantage, QOS

Miami airport business vs. fight with slate, boat chase...advantage, QOS

Card game vs Opera scene, QOS

stairwell fight vs hotel escape, advantage, QOS

torture vs dog fight/parachute escape, advanatge CR

Love story vs non existent romance, advantage, CR(duh!)

locales:CR's bahamas/prague/italy vs Italy/Panama/austria/chile, advanatge,QOS

Villa shootout vs hotel assault, advantange, CR, but not by much

Endings: CR vs QOS, advanatge CR

Craig's Bond: advantage, QOS

Villians: advantage, CR

Bond girls: CR

QOS scores an even 6 to CR's 6 on my tale of the tape. :)

#137 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:47 PM

Although pacing and overall economy goes to QOS, in spades. :(

#138 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 03:56 PM

1. What do you say to people that say QOS is "wall to wall action and no characterization and no dialoge and that DC doesn't get a chance to act."?


Erm, well, I'd say that they're wrong, and that the film does have its share of characterisation (indeed some of the best characterisation of the whole Bond series, rivalled only by that of CASINO ROYALE) and good dialogue, with Craig having a few rich scenes to sink his awesome acting chops into (the "How much oil did he promise you?" scene with M, the confrontation with Yusef and the moments with Mathis spring to mind immediately, but there are of course a few others).

So, yeah, I'd say that they're wrong. :D

I was waiting for your 2nd review Loom. The first was just too long. :)


A bit like QUANTUM OF SOLACE, then. :)

Nothing but one thing about your recent critique surprises me. And that is your ‘rating’: 7 out of 10. Looking at the rather short list of complaints mixed in with what sounds like a great deal of enthusiasm, I’d have concluded you thought of QOS as at least an 8 or 9. Heck, if you’re going to remain standing by your MWTGG as #1, why not just throw the full ‘10’ at it?


Well, because for me the flaws of QUANTUM OF SOLACE are really serious. I hate the "dogfight" (which I put in inverted commas because, as Hilly points out, it's not, strictly speaking, a dogfight) with the sort of passion that STAR WARS fanboys reserve for Jar Jar Binks (and indeed George Lucas).

QoS is mostly so good that its flaws really hurt it, few in number though those flaws may be.

Oh, and I hadn’t picked up on the Bond theme door-knocking rhythm at all. Has that been either debunked or proven yet? Hopefully the latter. Funny, since all this recent talk about how LTK and QOS are so similar, here’s yet another potential similarity… since LTK features the Bond theme in the form of percussive bullet ricochets from the side of the semi. :)


Well, unfortunately, this time round I didn't hear the Bond theme so clearly, and those I've spoken to about this "joke" seem to think I got it wrong. So I'm now about 90% sure I was incorrect, alas. ;) However, there's just enough of a glimmer of hope to suggest that I was right. :(

#139 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:04 PM

Where do I rate him? I think he's terrific, probably the best Bond ever, and maybe even better than Sean.

I was always a huge Craig supporter (LAYER CAKE immediately convinced me that he'd be a brilliant 007), and was delighted when it was confirmed that he had the role. He's the single greatest asset Eon has and is surely one of the most important figures ever in the history of Bond. I know that when Brosnan appeared on the scene, people were saying he was "born to be Bond" and that he'd singlehandedly saved the franchise, but I do think Craig is outstanding.

Now, he hasn't done anything singlehandedly - this wonderful new era of Bond that started with CASINO ROYALE wouldn't have happened without the work of many other people, e.g. Barbara Broccoli, Martin Campbell, Paul Haggis, Amy Pascal and no doubt dozens of others who are more behind-the-scenes and more unsung, but Craig is still probably the jewel in the crown. I don't have a single bad word to say about him.

That said, I do think CASINO ROYALE is a much better showcase for his talents than QUANTUM OF SOLACE, but that's largely due to my belief that CR is a perfect film (as well as a perfect Bond film), whereas QoS is excellent on the whole but still rather flawed.


I think QOS is superior in terms of action and locales.Here's a breakdown of chapters and standard elements: :(

Casino:Pretitle, free running, embassy assault vs Quantum: awesome car chase, rooftop chase, art gallery shootout...advantage, QOS

Miami airport business vs. fight with slate, boat chase...advantage, QOS

Card game vs Opera scene, QOS

stairwell fight vs hotel escape, advantage, QOS

torture vs dog fight/parachute escape, advanatge CR

Love story vs non existent romance, advantage, CR(duh!)

locales:CR's bahamas/prague/italy vs Italy/Panama/austria/chile, advanatge,QOS

Villa shootout vs hotel assault, advantange, CR, but not by much

Endings: CR vs QOS, advanatge CR

Craig's Bond: advantage, QOS

Villians: advantage, CR

Bond girls: CR

QOS scores an even 6 to CR's 6 on my tale of the tape. :)


Hmmm.... here's my take on it:

Casino:Pretitle, free running, embassy assault vs Quantum: awesome car chase, rooftop chase, art gallery shootout...advantage, CR, although it's close

Miami airport business vs. fight with slate, boat chase...advantage, CR, by miles (I've never understood the hate for the Miami stuff in CR)

Card game vs Opera scene, advantage, CR, although, again, it's close

stairwell fight vs hotel escape, advantage, CR - yes, considerably

torture vs dog fight/parachute escape, advantage, CR, by the sort of massive margin by which THE BOURNE SUPREMACY is a better film than xXx: STATE OF THE UNION

Love story vs non existent romance, advantage, CR (yep, duh!)

locales:CR's bahamas/prague/italy vs Italy/Panama/austria/chile, advantage, QoS, which has a terrific "travelogue" atmosphere

Villa shootout vs hotel assault, advantange, CR

Endings: CR vs QOS, advantage, CR

Craig's Bond: advantage, CR

Villians: draw

Bond girls: advantage, CR

CR = 10

QoS = 1

#140 Judo chop

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:14 PM

Love story vs non existent romance - FALSE PREMISE.

QOS is very much about the romance; the romance that was taken from Bond and the resulting effects of that. Maybe it's apples and oranges trying to compare between the two films since Bond doesn't get to say anything to his love in QOS, but if you don't create a category for 'love lost', then you have stripped QOS of one of its paramount achievements, and the final tallies will be skewed.

#141 MattofSteel

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:18 PM

I'd like to see what Craig does as "the finished article" as a 00 through an entire movie. Bond 23 will be that movie.

I think Connery was sharp as a pin in Goldfinger and Thunderball. Still had some way to go in Dr No and then was horribly overweight, greying and disinterested/uninteresting by Diamonds Are Forever.

If Craig nails it in Bond 23 there won't even be a debate. Plus I like his work ethic and he's a relatively humble person which I think adds to his likability.


You're absolutely right, absolutely right, and I think he's already channeling it in the final scene with M.

My reading of the really successful incarnations of the Bond character (IE Goldfinger and Thunderball, not in the way he's written but the way Connery played him) was all about the character's attitude. His "cavalier attitude towards life" as M said to Pierce. It's that same attitude that makes him the most dangerous and enviable man in the room.

Because here's this character in this mixed-up, dangerous, heightened reality that somehow sports a grin and even internal sense of humour about it all.

A character that, for lack of a better word, "gets it."

Perhaps I've become a bit of a cynical fatalist given recent events in my own personal life, but I see Bond as a character who gets just how f-ed up the world is, how betrayals are constant, danger is everywhere, and love isn't worth its weight in gold because of what you might lose. That's why he's such a smooth operator - it's almost as if he sees the joke of it all. He's the opposite of a basket case or an inherently nervous person. He treats all of his iconic, dangerous situations will ease and class because he almost emerges "above" the theatricality of it all. That's why, in a movie of characters and archetypes, he's the biggest one and yet comes away as the coolest cat in the room.

It's as if his entire philosophy on life is "The world is a dark and dangerous place, there's no sense in preoccupying myself with worry over the basic constants of human life, so I'll be damned if I'm not going to have a good time doing my job." That may be an oversimplification, but it's along those lines. I'm leaning toward saying Bond sees the subtle humour of human existence itself, and in every snide comment, arched eyebrow, or throwaway remark, he's taking authority of the tiniest pieces of control human beings are actually capable of.

Apologies if that got a bit more cerebral than I'd intended :(.

Back to QoS - I think it's logical to assume a character more in line with, say, Goldfinger Bond (albeit a bit more human, emotional, etc. in light of contemporary cinema) will emerge in Bond 23. The final scene with M is the first indications.

He emerges in, comparatively, a good mood from Yusef's apartment. His statement of her being "right about Vesper" is not made with regret or disappointment, it's like a comical "I can't believe I was so thick about it."

To me, it's all in the way he says "I Never Left." I read some complaininga bout Daniel's botched delivery of the line, that it didn't have the power it should have. And what I'm saying, is that's the point. It's the perfect delivery in line with this new Bond we're anticipating. It's with a certain "I dont' know what you - or I - were worried about."

Because he's been through the ringer that was the CR-QoS arc. Goes right back to what Martin Campbell's thoughts were at the initial CR press conference. Bond has been through the roughest two films, physically and emotionally, of his 22-film life. He's seen the most gruesome of deaths (some by his own hands), the horrors of small-time crooks, the frightening nature of the larger powers in the world, the shattering of his faith in beloved institutions, and the gutting defeat of the worst kind of intimate betrayal.

The Bond that emerges in the final scene (and hopefully 23) I would expect has the attitude of, "what else can I possibly see?" - and thus, a Bond who sees the irony and humour and futility in being a seriously cold bastard will be borne.

#142 Loomis

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:18 PM

QOS is very much about the romance; the romance that was taken from Bond and the resulting effects of that.


Indeed. Vesper is very much present throughout the whole film.

#143 marktmurphy

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:27 PM

QOS is very much about the romance; the romance that was taken from Bond and the resulting effects of that.


Indeed. Vesper is very much present throughout the whole film.


The beginning and end maybe. A grimace at Mathis perhaps, not much else.

#144 Judo chop

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:35 PM

The Bond that emerges in the final scene (and hopefully 23) I would expect has the attitude of, "what else can I possibly see?" - and thus, a Bond who sees the irony and humour and futility in being a seriously cold bastard will be borne.

Thanks for that, Matt. I agree. Scenes like this one can appear disjointed or flat when looked at individually, but can make a whole lot more sense when you step back and take in, (allow me to quote the man himself here), The Big Picture.

I can't wait to see what QOS looks like when the 3rd phase of this particular big picture comes into play!

QOS is very much about the romance; the romance that was taken from Bond and the resulting effects of that.

Indeed. Vesper is very much present throughout the whole film.

The beginning and end maybe. A grimace at Mathis perhaps, not much else.

Also, a conversation with Camille in the sinkhole, a whole conversation with Mathis at the bar, and at Mathis' final scene.

As if that isn't enough, there's also the entire film. Except during the heat of action, I think we're asked to keep Vesper in mind at all times, as Bond would inevitably be doing as well. Every time the issue of trust comes up, no doubt a nerve is agitated.

EDIT: Surely also when it looks like Camille and he are going to bite the dust, the thought of being unable to save Vesper comes to mind. Or, earlier, when Greene says to (read: 'cackles wonderfully at') Bond, "Looks like you've lost another one!".

Vesper is the co-star of QoS. If you don't get that, you're only seeing half the film.

#145 Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:37 PM

Where do I rate him? I think he's terrific, probably the best Bond ever, and maybe even better than Sean.

I was always a huge Craig supporter (LAYER CAKE immediately convinced me that he'd be a brilliant 007), and was delighted when it was confirmed that he had the role. He's the single greatest asset Eon has and is surely one of the most important figures ever in the history of Bond. I know that when Brosnan appeared on the scene, people were saying he was "born to be Bond" and that he'd singlehandedly saved the franchise, but I do think Craig is outstanding.

Now, he hasn't done anything singlehandedly - this wonderful new era of Bond that started with CASINO ROYALE wouldn't have happened without the work of many other people, e.g. Barbara Broccoli, Martin Campbell, Paul Haggis, Amy Pascal and no doubt dozens of others who are more behind-the-scenes and more unsung, but Craig is still probably the jewel in the crown. I don't have a single bad word to say about him.

That said, I do think CASINO ROYALE is a much better showcase for his talents than QUANTUM OF SOLACE, but that's largely due to my belief that CR is a perfect film (as well as a perfect Bond film), whereas QoS is excellent on the whole but still rather flawed.


I think QOS is superior in terms of action and locales.Here's a breakdown of chapters and standard elements: :(

Casino:Pretitle, free running, embassy assault vs Quantum: awesome car chase, rooftop chase, art gallery shootout...advantage, QOS

Miami airport business vs. fight with slate, boat chase...advantage, QOS

Card game vs Opera scene, QOS

stairwell fight vs hotel escape, advantage, QOS

torture vs dog fight/parachute escape, advanatge CR

Love story vs non existent romance, advantage, CR(duh!)

locales:CR's bahamas/prague/italy vs Italy/Panama/austria/chile, advanatge,QOS

Villa shootout vs hotel assault, advantange, CR, but not by much

Endings: CR vs QOS, advanatge CR

Craig's Bond: advantage, QOS

Villians: advantage, CR

Bond girls: CR

QOS scores an even 6 to CR's 6 on my tale of the tape. :)


Hmmm.... here's my take on it:

Casino:Pretitle, free running, embassy assault vs Quantum: awesome car chase, rooftop chase, art gallery shootout...advantage, CR, although it's close

Miami airport business vs. fight with slate, boat chase...advantage, CR, by miles (I've never understood the hate for the Miami stuff in CR)

Card game vs Opera scene, advantage, CR, although, again, it's close

stairwell fight vs hotel escape, advantage, CR - yes, considerably

torture vs dog fight/parachute escape, advantage, CR, by the sort of massive margin by which THE BOURNE SUPREMACY is a better film than xXx: STATE OF THE UNION

Love story vs non existent romance, advantage, CR (yep, duh!)

locales:CR's bahamas/prague/italy vs Italy/Panama/austria/chile, advantage, QoS, which has a terrific "travelogue" atmosphere

Villa shootout vs hotel assault, advantange, CR

Endings: CR vs QOS, advantage, CR

Craig's Bond: advantage, CR

Villians: draw

Bond girls: advantage, CR

CR = 10

QoS = 1


ouch.

#146 HildebrandRarity

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:42 PM

Looks like MattofSteel is in the midst of a mid-term thesis. :( Good show from one of our friends from Station C, Canada.

#147 Trident

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:09 PM

Only now do I get around to reading all this and I must say, some really terrific observations, some most interesting opinions, fine stuff!

Just one thing regarding the Bourne reference(s): there obviously was a deliberate decision to pick up many of CR's angles and play them in some different way in QOS, sometimes emphasising, sometimes twisting, sometimes inverting them. One of those obviously was the suspected Bourne influence that supposedly helped reboot Bond in CR.

Based on this concept you really can only go in one direction, acknowledging the rival and paying homage to his influence. So to me, these few tributes don't come across as jarring, just the opposite. It takes a lot to admit this for such an established franchise and doing it so appreciatively to me seems very flattering.

#148 MattofSteel

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:17 PM

Looks like MattofSteel is in the midst of a mid-term thesis. :( Good show from one of our friends from Station C, Canada.


An often unfortunate byproduct from my train of thought :).

Or perhaps I'm just bored at work?

#149 Harmsway

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 12:53 AM

The beginning and end maybe. A grimace at Mathis perhaps, not much else.


I disagree. Scenes where Vesper's shadow hangs over the scene, or at least plays into it (and most of these scenes are quite overt that way):



  • Opening chat with M, and Mr. White's interrogation.
  • Bond's discussion with Mathis at the villa.
  • Bond, drunk, on the plane to Bolivia.
  • Greene's slimy note of Bond as "damaged goods."
  • Mathis' death and his final words to Bond.
  • The Bond/Camille discussion in the sinkhole.
  • Bond dealing with the death of Agent Fields.
  • Bond fighting with Greene ("It looks like you've lost another one."), followed by the deliberate echo of the shower scene with Bond cradling Camille in the fire.
  • Bond and Camille bidding their good-bye.
  • Bond saving Corinne from Yusef.
  • Bond's final chat with M.