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How can they "Bond-Up" Craig even more in Bond 22?


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#91 Publius

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:37 AM

I get what Craig's going for - I'm just not sold that continuing in this direction without adding in JUST A LITTLE MORE of what we've seen from Bond over the years is a good idea. (Not a lot, just a little more...)

In that case, I think you'll be a happy man come Bond 22, as I think it's a given they'll dial it down a bit. I just hope they only do so in areas I don't mind (such as Bond being tortured, or even getting bloodied up everywhere).

CR restored a much-needed sense of danger to Bond, which heightens the excitement of his adventures for me (and I think for many others as well), but the point has been made strongly enough that they can pull it back somehwat for the next film. As long as they also maintain the quality of action, dialogue, acting, and plot, I'll be more than thrilled.

#92 B5Erik

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:47 AM

I get what Craig's going for - I'm just not sold that continuing in this direction without adding in JUST A LITTLE MORE of what we've seen from Bond over the years is a good idea. (Not a lot, just a little more...)


In that case, I think you'll be a happy man come Bond 22, as I think it's a given they'll dial it down a bit. I just hope they only do so in areas I don't mind (such as Bond being tortured, or even getting bloodied up everywhere).

CR restored a much-needed sense of danger to Bond, which heightens the excitement of his adventures for me (and I think for many others as well), but the point has been made strongly enough that they can pull it back somehwat for the next film. As long as they also maintain the quality of action, dialogue, acting, and plot, I'll be more than thrilled.


See, that's the way I look at it. CR obliterated the excess and ridiculousness of DAD. It had to be done. Now they can make a CLASSIC movie that incorporates the best of what Bond has always been, while keeping the quality of CR.

That's all I'm hoping for. If they do that then I think EVERYONE will be happy.

#93 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:03 AM

See, that's the way I look at it. CR obliterated the excess and ridiculousness of DAD. It had to be done. Now they can make a CLASSIC movie that incorporates the best of what Bond has always been, while keeping the quality of CR.

That's all I'm hoping for. If they do that then I think EVERYONE will be happy.

I won't be happy. The last thing I want is for Bond to get safe and formulaic again, just when Bond has finally broken free and become fresh and creative again. I want continued risk-taking. We've had enough "classic" Bond to last us forever. Let's keep on with the new stuff.

For example, here's my list for BOND 22 and the rest of Craig's tenure:
  • No Q or Moneypenny. I never want them to return.
  • Keep the physicality of Craig's Bond. It's fresh, it's exciting, and brings a real edge to a very tired character.
  • No tuxedo, or at least used in very sparing doses (every other film, perhaps). Way overplayed, and we had a ton of it in CASINO ROYALE anyway.
  • Continuation of the "attire that fits what Bond's doing at the time" thing CASINO ROYALE had going on for it. Suits are great, but use suits when suits should be used.
  • Keep the villains a-typical. Le Chiffre was interesting and unique. Keep that trend.
  • Don't let the franchise sink into a safe, formulaic entry for a long time. Keep using new and exciting dynamics. For example, Bond as part of a group mission (ICEBREAKER), Bond not getting the girl (MOONRAKER), a headhunt for Bond (NOBODY LIVES FOREVER), Bond having amnesia (YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE), Bond thinking he's going crazy (DOUBLESHOT), etc. and so forth. Man, the books have always been more interesting in concept than the films ever have.
  • Keep the stories away from "take over the world" nonsense. It's better to keep it in the realm of thriller, with smaller, but intrigue-filled storylines (see FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE).
  • Keep the gadgetry in the same realm that CASINO ROYALE had it. No ejector seats or lasers, please.
  • Keep the humor at the same level it was in CASINO ROYALE.
And those are just for starters.

#94 B5Erik

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:10 AM

Harmsway, why would Bond 22 have to be "formulaic" just because they bring THE CHARACTER just a little closer to what he's always been?

It IS a JAMES BOND movie, right?

So if Craig's Bond gains a little more sophistication and confidence, but the plot is great, the villain is great, and the direction is great, that's not a good thing?

Again, it is a James Bond movie. No need to reinvent the wheel. Craig's Bond has to grow - and grow closer to the Bond we've all known and loved. That doesn't mean Tarzan yells while swinging from a vine, but a little more of the CLASS that fans come to expect from 007.

#95 JimmyBond

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:17 AM

Harmsway, why would Bond 22 have to be "formulaic" just because they bring THE CHARACTER just a little closer to what he's always been?


By Craig's own admittance, Bond in Bond22 is still not going to be the Bond "we all know and love." There's still learning to be done, and Bond is not quite there yet. Personally I hope it takes him a while to "get there," this journey they created for the character is interesting.

Don't they always say: "It's the journey that's important, not the destination."

#96 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:34 AM

So if Craig's Bond gains a little more sophistication and confidence, but the plot is great, the villain is great, and the direction is great, that's not a good thing?

He has all the sophistication and confidence he needs. In fact, he has confidence in spades.

I don't see how his level of sophistication could be improved. This Bond is already an expert on the finer things in life (about as much as Dalton or Fleming's Bond ever was), so I worry that him improving in that area will get him further away from Fleming's Bond and more into the cartoonish area where Bond started going in GOLDFINGER.

And the worst thing to do would be to make him like some smarmy aristocrat. Bond, as Terence Young aptly said, is a "thug in a dinner jacket." He's a killer, and he's a tough human being. He may like certain things in life, but he's not aristocratic.

That doesn't mean Tarzan yells while swinging from a vine, but a little more of the CLASS that fans come to expect from 007.

CASINO ROYALE had more of the class that I expect from 007 than the last twenty years of Bond films.

#97 Safari Suit

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 09:59 AM

I agree with the majority here; they don't need to. If I want to see Connery or Moore, I'll watch Connery or Moore. If I feel it isn't "Fleming" enough I'll read one of the books.

And what does this "drinking the kool aid" expression mean? I presume it has nothing to do with drinking actual kool aid.

#98 sharpshooter

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:17 AM

I like how Bond was portrayed in CR, and hope to get more of the same in Bond 22. Craig is portraying Bond his way, making the character his own and defining his mark on the series.

#99 Loomis

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 12:28 PM

And he's somewhat becoming James Bond in terms of his emotional hardening (Campbell made as much clear that Bond's "becoming" Bond was not an exterior thing, but more about taking his arrogance down a peg and making him harder). Otherwise, he's meant to be James Bond in all respects as far as the rest of the film goes. By the end of CASINO ROYALE arrives, he IS the James Bond we know and love. Don't expect any more evolution.


Any more evolution? See, this is one small issue I have with CASINO ROYALE, although it doesn't even come close to marring the film in any way for me. I don't see any "hardening" or development of Craig's Bond whatsoever during the course of the film - the character we see at the end is to all intents and purposes exactly the same one we saw at the start.

If his arrogance has been taken down a peg by the end of the film, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Confronting Mr White at the climax, is our hero really any tougher, emotionally or physically, than he was when dealing with Dryden or leaping around the African construction site?

To my mind, Bond emerges fully-formed at the start of CR and doesn't really go on to learn anything new or change in any way. Which is fine by me, but wasn't CR presented to us as a BOND BEGINS, learning-the-tricks-of-his-trade kind of movie? I've said it before and I'll say it again: you could walk late into the cinema during the opening credits sequence and never know that you were watching a film about the rookie 007 on his first major mission.

"But you're ignoring his life-changing experience in falling for Vesper!" I hear you cry. Well, to my eyes it doesn't appear to alter Bond any more than, say, he's affected by being duped by Elektra in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH. Again, this is more than okay by me, since I never wanted to see a BOND BEGINS film anyway, with cringeworthy lines like "Do you know, this is the first time I've fired a gun - they're rather loud", and "You mean I have a licence to kill as part of this job? Excellent!". But I do think CR has been misrepresented as an origin story that it's not.

#100 plankattack

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 01:04 PM

Well said Loomis. I love CR but I didn't feel there was much of a journey in terms of the character's development. That said, I enjoy the "thug in a dinner jacket" interpretation, rather than the super-sosphisticated mannequin too easily parodied by Austin Powers.

Craig's portrayal is tough, intelligent (the train and car scenes with Vesper - come on, all the chaps here wish here we could be that quick-witted, which is part of the Bond experience) and cool in a confident,physical, masculine way. Watch how he leans against the bar in the casino as the rules of the poker match are being explained. He was almost channelling Connery.

Craig doesn't need Bonding-up. It's just his interpretation is going to be very different from Moore's gun-toting punster. And I love Sir Roger, but I after 21 films, I don't mind different eras having different feels. There was never a moment's doubt in my mind that I was watching a Bond film (which has been a criticism thrown around "great action movie but not Bond).

#101 00Twelve

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:29 PM

To help clarify Harmsway's ideas (not that he really needs it), I think he just feels as I feel. Everyone on this board loves Bond. And it's great that so many people see so many different things in the same movies and books. But frankly, the James Bond we've been watching on screen, up until three months ago, became boring. Predictable. Honestly, until CR, it hadn't been since LTK that I've even remotely been able to suspend my disbelief enough to trick myself into wondering whether Bond will survive. And it was only that film and the very early Connerys that even did that for me. It's the unfamiliar territory (Bond getting truly hurt, visibly so) that makes the film compelling. And the realism, such as it is, helps. The fact that a government assassin doesn't stick out like a sore thumb by dressing in a three-piece EVERYWHERE makes me buy it. It's not bad that Bond knows how to dress, and doesn't want to appear too lowly, but Fleming didn't write Bond so that he turned every head in the room. He blended in, just like his name. It's a bland name on purpose. And he likes the finer things in life, and takes advantage of the opportunities to get it, when he can afford it. Like...when it's on England's bill. That's what I glean from my readings of Fleming, anyway.

Invincible, pun wielding, Bond-we-all-know-and-love just doesn't capture as much attention anymore, at least not for some of us. I think Bond 22 will be very unambiguous in regards to how the progression of Bond is to be from this point on. Bring on the unpredictability!

#102 Santa

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:35 PM

"But you're ignoring his life-changing experience in falling for Vesper!" I hear you cry. Well, to my eyes it doesn't appear to alter Bond any more than, say, he's affected by being duped by Elektra in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH.

While I agree with most of your post, surely we haven't seen enough of Bond since Vesper's death to know yet if it has altered him? That little scene by the lake doesn't really show us if he has or hasn't changed, and hopefully it's one of the things we will learn in Bond 22.

#103 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:47 PM

To help clarify Harmsway's ideas (not that he really needs it), I think he just feels as I feel. Everyone on this board loves Bond. And it's great that so many people see so many different things in the same movies and books. But frankly, the James Bond we've been watching on screen, up until three months ago, became boring. Predictable. Honestly, until CR, it hadn't been since LTK that I've even remotely been able to suspend my disbelief enough to trick myself into wondering whether Bond will survive. And it was only that film and the very early Connerys that even did that for me.

Quite right. In the Brosnan era, I found myself growing bored with one of my favorite heroes. By the time of DIE ANOTHER DAY, I was thinking the series might as well hang up its coat. I figured that the best of Bond had been done, and everything else had a been-there-done-that nature.

CASINO ROYALE proved me wrong. It was exciting, compelling, and fresh. For the first time in decades, I felt like Bond was of his times, rather than some archaic character that was being squeezed dry after years of use. And it wasn't for lack of the Bondian elements - I felt they were in abundance. It was just presented in such a fantastic way.

#104 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:58 PM

I don't see any "hardening" or development of Craig's Bond whatsoever during the course of the film - the character we see at the end is to all intents and purposes exactly the same one we saw at the start.

Do you feel the same way about Fleming's CASINO ROYALE? For the character arc is fairly similar, but with a different nuance to it in the film.

The way I see Bond in CASINO ROYALE is this. He's a born killer, and he knows it, but once he's really gotten into the profession, it begins to take its toll on him. He finds Vesper, finds a way out, but at the last minute, Vesper tears him out of that and ironically has the effect of setting him on his original track more firmly than he was before.

If his arrogance has been taken down a peg by the end of the film, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

I think his arrogance does receive a blow. For a large part of the film, when his arrogance pays off and he gets away with it. But eventually, it catches up with him - his mistakes haunt him. His mistakes hurt him physically (the torture scene), and emotionally (Vesper). He's not invincible, he's not flawless, and for the first time, he really tastes the pain of loss. He's going to carry that with him for the rest of his career as a secret agent.

Confronting Mr White at the climax, is our hero really any tougher, emotionally or physically, than he was when dealing with Dryden or leaping around the African construction site?

Emotionally? Yes.

"But you're ignoring his life-changing experience in falling for Vesper!" I hear you cry. Well, to my eyes it doesn't appear to alter Bond any more than, say, he's affected by being duped by Elektra in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH.


Considering Vesper's death is going to continue to haunt Craig's Bond in BOND 22 and onwards, I don't see how there's a whole lot of comparison there.

#105 Loomis

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:00 PM

"But you're ignoring his life-changing experience in falling for Vesper!" I hear you cry. Well, to my eyes it doesn't appear to alter Bond any more than, say, he's affected by being duped by Elektra in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH.

While I agree with most of your post, surely we haven't seen enough of Bond since Vesper's death to know yet if it has altered him?


Fair enough. However, I don't think we've ever really seen Bond altered in any meaningful way by anything. Even in Fleming's YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, we're informed that he moped around for a while after his wife's death, but as soon as he's back on a mission again he's romping around Japan with Henderson and Tanaka, whoring, drinking and basically being as happy as a clam. Not that I'd have it any other way, mind you, but I do find the whole business of "Bond is shocked to the core by such-and-such and emerges a changed man" to be reflective more of fans' wishful thinking than the reality of what's onscreen or on the page.

#106 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:02 PM

Not that I'd have it any other way, mind you, but I do find the whole business of "Bond is shocked to the core by such-and-such and emerges a changed man" more to do with fans' wishful thinking than the reality of what's onscreen or on the page.

I quite agree, but I'm hoping CASINO ROYALE and the rest of the Craig era actually changes that. Given what we know about BOND 22, it seems like that may be the case.

#107 Loomis

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:05 PM

I don't see any "hardening" or development of Craig's Bond whatsoever during the course of the film - the character we see at the end is to all intents and purposes exactly the same one we saw at the start.

Do you feel the same way about Fleming's CASINO ROYALE? For the character arc is fairly similar, but with a different nuance to it in the film.


Well, Fleming takes it rather further. Bond is a little more supplicating towards Vesper than in the film - basically, she plays somewhat harder to get. Also, there's the famous exchange with Mathis in which our hero questions whether he's on the right side or whether there's even such a thing as the right side. When does Craig's Bond ever question anything or suffer angst?

I don't see any "hardening" or development of Craig's Bond whatsoever during the course of the film - the character we see at the end is to all intents and purposes exactly the same one we saw at the start.

Do you feel the same way about Fleming's CASINO ROYALE? For the character arc is fairly similar, but with a different nuance to it in the film.

The way I see Bond in CASINO ROYALE is this. He's a born killer, and he knows it, but once he's really gotten into the profession, it begins to take its toll on him. He finds Vesper, finds a way out, but at the last minute, Vesper tears him out of that and ironically has the effect of setting him on his original track more firmly than he was before.

If his arrogance has been taken down a peg by the end of the film, well, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.

I think his arrogance does receive a blow. For a large part of the film, when his arrogance pays off and he gets away with it. But eventually, it catches up with him - his mistakes haunt him. His mistakes hurt him physically (the torture scene), and emotionally (Vesper). He's not invincible, he's not flawless, and for the first time, he really tastes the pain of loss. He's going to carry that with him for the rest of his career as a secret agent.

Confronting Mr White at the climax, is our hero really any tougher, emotionally or physically, than he was when dealing with Dryden or leaping around the African construction site?

Emotionally? Yes.


How? I don't see it. Right at the start of the film, he's capable of blowing a man (and a family man) away without a second's hesitation, making a cold quip at the same time. How exactly is it possible for Bond to get any emotionally tougher than that?

#108 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 09:36 PM

Also, there's the famous exchange with Mathis in which our hero questions whether he's on the right side or whether there's even such a thing as the right side. When does Craig's Bond ever question anything or suffer angst?

When does in Fleming's CASINO ROYALE does Bond ever suffer angst about having to kill men in cold blood and the ultimate effect that has on you as a person - Fleming's Bond's stuggle is purely philosophical, and it's less resonant because of that (also because Bond's views are obviously nieve and rather silly when he expresses them to Mathis).

But for Craig's Bond, the very struggle is about killing, and it's eating away at him and he knows it. It's essentially going to destroy him. He wants out, he's desperate to get out. That's why he leaps at the chance when Vesper comes along, and for a moment, we do see him genuinely, truly happy and free. But then that path is entirely stolen from him, and he resigns himself to being the "man who is only a silhouette."

Admittedly, I'm stretching this out a bit. I don't think there's a whole lot of "Bond Begins" in CASINO ROYALE (and that's a good thing), but I do think there's an element of change for Bond inside of it, and so I'm defending that. Largely, though, I prefer to think of CASINO ROYALE as a picture of Bond's first mission, rather than an attempt to explain everything about the character.

#109 Loomis

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:26 PM

Also, there's the famous exchange with Mathis in which our hero questions whether he's on the right side or whether there's even such a thing as the right side. When does Craig's Bond ever question anything or suffer angst?

When does in Fleming's CASINO ROYALE does Bond ever suffer angst about having to kill men in cold blood and the ultimate effect that has on you as a person


Well, he's always getting queasy about killing people in cold blood (and actually refuses to do so at one point in THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, despite the fact that it would have eliminated the threat from Sluggsy and Horror there and then), and I seem to recall a few references here and there about his looking back on killings, or alternatively his deliberately choosing not to look back for fear of the psychological can of worms it would open up. There's that bit about killing the Mexican at the start of GOLDFINGER, for instance - not that Bond is on a guilt trip, of course, but it's clear that he's not entirely undisturbed by the incident.

Fleming's Bond's stuggle is purely philosophical, and it's less resonant because of that (also because Bond's views are obviously nieve and rather silly when he expresses them to Mathis).


Purely philosophical? Not sure I agree - I was under the impression that Bond was talking things through with Mathis because he was shaken up by his experiences and contemplating leaving the British secret service (although he does not, of course, explicitly say as much to Mathis). I don't think he was having a disinterested, academic dialogue.

But for Craig's Bond, the very struggle is about killing, and it's eating away at him and he knows it. It's essentially going to destroy him. He wants out, he's desperate to get out. That's why he leaps at the chance when Vesper comes along, and for a moment, we do see him genuinely, truly happy and free. But then that path is entirely stolen from him, and he resigns himself to being the "man who is only a silhouette."


See, I never got the sense from the film that Craig's Bond wanted out of the spy game; quite the opposite - I felt that here was a Bond who relished his work more than any of his predecessors, more even than Moore at his merriest. That he enjoys it a little too much, verging on being basically a British government-licensed Hannibal Lecter (without the cannibalism, obviously, but you get my drift). My view is that he wants out as a means of keeping Vesper, and not that he clings to Vesper as a route out of the British secret service. Just my way of looking at it, though - your interpretation seems to me perfectly valid.

I don't think there's a whole lot of "Bond Begins" in CASINO ROYALE (and that's a good thing), but I do think there's an element of change for Bond inside of it


I don't. At all. This is definitely where we differ on CASINO ROYALE.

#110 Harmsway

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 10:55 PM

Fleming's Bond's stuggle is purely philosophical, and it's less resonant because of that (also because Bond's views are obviously nieve and rather silly when he expresses them to Mathis).

Purely philosophical? Not sure I agree - I was under the impression that Bond was talking things through with Mathis because he was shaken up by his experiences and contemplating leaving the British secret service (although he does not, of course, explicitly say as much to Mathis). I don't think he was having a disinterested, academic dialogue.

Well, I don't mean disintered dialogue. But his reasons for wanting to quit are philosophical. Not really believing in a good guy/bad guy dichotomy anymore.

But for Craig's Bond, the very struggle is about killing, and it's eating away at him and he knows it. It's essentially going to destroy him. He wants out, he's desperate to get out. That's why he leaps at the chance when Vesper comes along, and for a moment, we do see him genuinely, truly happy and free. But then that path is entirely stolen from him, and he resigns himself to being the "man who is only a silhouette."

See, I never got the sense from the film that Craig's Bond wanted out of the spy game; quite the opposite - I felt that here was a Bond who relished his work more than any of his predecessors, more even than Moore at his merriest. That he enjoys it a little too much, verging on being basically a British government-licensed Hannibal Lecter (without the cannibalism, obviously, but you get my drift). My view is that he wants out as a means of keeping Vesper, and not that he clings to Vesper as a route out of the British secret service. Just my way of looking at it, though - your interpretation seems to me perfectly valid.

Very interesting reading of CASINO ROYALE. It's one I haven't heard before.

You see, at most, I see Craig's Bond having a love/hate relationship with his job. He knows he's very good at it, and appreciates the espionage aspects, but the killing seems to be taking a toll on him. There's his face after he drowns Fisher, his face after he kills Dryden is more a mask of disgust than anything, and then there's the moment after he's taken out Obanno and is looking very distraught in the mirror.

The most telling scene for me is the dinner scene with Bond and Vesper. "It doesn't bother you, killing those people?" Bond retorts with, "I wouldn't be very good at my job if I did." ANd I don't buy it, and neither does Vesper ("See, I don't believe you"). There's something uneasy about him there. I think the next piece of dialogue is the most important line in the film: "You have a choice, you know. Just because you've done something doesn't mean you have to keep doing it." That, I think, is the crux of why Bond goes (and Bond seems to have realized that after recovering in the clinic and then on the beach, since everything he says and does lines up with that).

I think what Bond finds attractive about Vesper is that she's a sort of kindred spirit - they're both trying to escape their lives. There are two key relational moments between Bond and Vesper. The first is the shower scene, where Bond relates to Vesper's struggle with the violence. He understands. The second scene is that dinner scene, where the entire conversation is about how they're entangled in situations they don't particularly want (and the dialogue follows that trend afterwards, continually pointing back to that idea). Together, they try to escape, but ultimately neither is able to.

I don't think there's a whole lot of "Bond Begins" in CASINO ROYALE (and that's a good thing), but I do think there's an element of change for Bond inside of it

I don't. At all. This is definitely where we differ on CASINO ROYALE.

Clearly.

#111 Loomis

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 11:10 PM

Very interesting reading of CASINO ROYALE. It's one I haven't heard before.

You see, at most, I see Craig's Bond having a love/hate relationship with his job. He knows he's very good at it, and appreciates the espionage aspects, but the killing seems to be taking a toll on him. There's his face after he drowns Fisher, his face after he kills Dryden is more a mask of disgust than anything, and then there's the moment after he's taken out Obanno and is looking very distraught in the mirror.

The most telling scene for me is the dinner scene with Bond and Vesper. "It doesn't bother you, killing those people?" "I wouldn't be very good at my job if I did." "See, I don't believe you." I'm with Vesper on that. And then she offers the key phrase, "You have a choice, you know. Just because you've done something doesn't mean you have to keep doing it." Later, Bond seems to have realized that after recovering in the clinic and then on the beach.

I think what Bond finds attractive about Vesper is that she's a sort of kindred spirit - they're both trying to escape their lives. There are two key relational moments between Bond and Vesper. The first is the shower scene, where Bond relates to Vesper's struggle with the violence. He understands. The second scene is that dinner scene, where the entire conversation is about how they're entangled in situations they don't particularly want (and the dialogue follows that trend afterwards, continually pointing back to that idea). Together, they try to escape, but ultimately neither is able to.


I'll buy that. And I'd say that Craig's Bond definitely has a love/hate relationship with his job - he really loves it, and (I imagine) really hates it, although he mostly conceals the hating from himself behind the buzz of his action-packed assignments. Vodka martinis and willing women silencing the screams of all the men he's killed, and all that.

I don't think Craig's Bond is a sadist - he would not enjoy torturing someone (although he'd definitely do it, and I suspect that that's a scene we may see in BOND 22), but he nonetheless enjoys bringing it on. He likes going up against the enemy, fighting and winning - it's not just a necessary evil of his job, it's as much of a reward as a good vodka martini or a willing woman. I think he recognises this enjoyment in himself, and part of him is disgusted by it, but the part of him that craves excitement, danger and even terrible violence has overwhelmingly the upper hand, as he rationalises that the people he kills are, as Schwarzenegger amusingly puts it in TRUE LIES, all bad. This is easy to do, as Craig's Bond exists in the world of Bond films where the guys he goes up against really are all bad. It'll be interesting to see if he ever gets to take out an innocent bystander by mistake, as I seem to recall 007 does in Benson's NEVER DREAM OF DYING.

Again, though, I just don't get the impression that Craig's Bond is desperate for a way out of the service - apart from anything else, he's only just got there! :cooltongue:

#112 Publius

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 11:24 PM

The way I see Bond in CASINO ROYALE is this. He's a born killer, and he knows it, but once he's really gotten into the profession, it begins to take its toll on him. He finds Vesper, finds a way out, but at the last minute, Vesper tears him out of that and ironically has the effect of setting him on his original track more firmly than he was before.

Exactly as I see it.

Character development need not mean a change from X to Y. It could just as easily be someone at X second-guessing his being there and seriously considering giving that up for Y (in this case, beginning with dropping his guard and, in retrospect, acting like a sap), only to have life slap him hard in the face as a result, making him realize X is the only thing he has known and can trust. And here, X is the life of a detached but reluctant killer and civil servant, while Y is that of a romantic and free spirit who wears his heart on his sleeve (or whatever we're supposed to presume Bond was willing to become with Vesper).

In other words, Casino Royale is the unfortunate story of a man having his dark, impersonal beliefs reaffirmed as a consequence of his first earnest attempts at salvaging his humanity. What we're left with is a cold and broken soul whom we can pity, but at the same time a now-resolute anti-hero for whom we can cheer. That's how I see it at least, and it works for me.

#113 tdalton

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 11:29 PM

The way I see Bond in CASINO ROYALE is this. He's a born killer, and he knows it, but once he's really gotten into the profession, it begins to take its toll on him. He finds Vesper, finds a way out, but at the last minute, Vesper tears him out of that and ironically has the effect of setting him on his original track more firmly than he was before.

Exactly as I see it.


That's how I understood Craig's portrayal of the character as well. I think that this will get even more fully developed in Bond 22, but the beginning of a character arc similar to this is already apparent in Casino Royale.

#114 Harmsway

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 12:13 AM

I don't think Craig's Bond is a sadist - he would not enjoy torturing someone (although he'd definitely do it, and I suspect that that's a scene we may see in BOND 22), but he nonetheless enjoys bringing it on. He likes going up against the enemy, fighting and winning - it's not just a necessary evil of his job, it's as much of a reward as a good vodka martini or a willing woman. I think he recognises this enjoyment in himself, and part of him is disgusted by it, but the part of him that craves excitement, danger and even terrible violence has overwhelmingly the upper hand, as he rationalises that the people he kills are, as Schwarzenegger amusingly puts it in TRUE LIES, all bad. This is easy to do, as Craig's Bond exists in the world of Bond films where the guys he goes up against really are all bad.

Yes, I think you're right. There is that love/hate dynamic, and I also think Bond really knows that he's good at this. This is what he was born to do. I don't think Bond had really considered much else at the beginning of CASINO ROYALE, and seems fairly prepared to give his life ("I understand Double-Os have a very short life expectancy, so your mistake will be short-lived"). It's almost like Bond is tempted by death, having not much else to live for. In Vesper, I think he finds something else.

It'll be interesting to see if he ever gets to take out an innocent bystander by mistake, as I seem to recall 007 does in Benson's NEVER DREAM OF DYING.

Would be great if he did. I was recently thinking upon all the novels - it's amazing how many crazy and interesting ideas get dealt with in there. The movies could definitely take a few cues from the novels in that respect. I mean, let's look at some of the ideas that get dealt with:

-Bond "dies" at the end of a story (FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE)
-Bond gets amnesia and gets a Japanese fishing girl pregnant (YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE)
-Bond gets brainwashed and sent to kill his boss (THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN)
-A headhunt is put out for Bond (NOBODY LIVES FOREVER)
-Bond interacting on a team mission (ICEBREAKER)
-Bond pursues a serial killer (NEVER SEND FLOWERS)
-Bond spends most of his mission on a mountaintop (HIGH TIME TO KILL)
-Bond's sanity is attacked with a doppelganger (DOUBLESHOT)

And there's plenty more examples. I mean, I don't think much of the books, but they're still a lot more interesting than the films have often been.

Again, though, I just don't get the impression that Craig's Bond is desperate for a way out of the service - apart from anything else, he's only just got there! :cooltongue:

"Desperate" was a far too strong word for me to use. But as Chris Cornell's song wisely says, "If you take a life, do you know what you'll give? Odds are, you won't like what it is..." and I think that's what Bond is confronted with. He loves the adventure, he loves the risk, he wants to tempt death - but when he finds Vesper, he's perfectly willing to give that all up for a chance at something more.

In other words, Casino Royale is the unfortunate story of a man having his dark, impersonal beliefs reaffirmed as a consequence of his first earnest attempts at salvaging his humanity. What we're left with is a cold and broken soul whom we can pity, but at the same time a now-resolute anti-hero for whom we can cheer. That's how I see it at least, and it works for me.

Great summary. I'm glad I'm not alone.

#115 Loomis

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 12:27 AM

He loves the adventure, he loves the risk, he wants to tempt death - but when he finds Vesper, he's perfectly willing to give that all up for a chance at something more.


I'll buy that. I think where we differ is that I believe Craig's Bond is rather more excited by - and wedded to - the life of danger and battle than you do. Publius calls him a reluctant killer a couple of posts back - well, at not one single, solitary point in the film do I get the feeling that Craig's Bond is any way reluctant about killing or (yet, at least) particularly bothered by it. Which would actually make him more ruthless than Fleming's Bond! But, still, it's how I feel when watching the film. There's Dryden's "Made you feel it, did he?" line, of course, but even then I take Bond's expression to be one of physical exhaustion rather than remorse or horror - it was a bloody difficult kill, after all! No, the impression I get is of a guy who really relishes the wet work - note his triumphant, cold smile when the bomber is killed at MIA, and the gleam in his eye when he asks M whether she wants him to perform a clean kill or to send a message. Both M and Vesper comment on his chilling emotional detachment in matters of death. And, of course, there's his overwhelming ice cold psycho attitude when slaying Dryden, a man he cannot possibly have any particular animosity towards, and someone who after all has merely sold a few secrets (small beer in Bond villain terms, you'll agree). One really shudders to imagine how Craig's Bond would behave towards someone who'd actually wronged him! Others have said it before: this is the first 007 who comes across as a genuinely scary guy (one of Craig's main strengths in the role, of course).

I think really enjoys it, and the "I wouldn't be very good at my job" line shows that, as an intelligent and honest man, he knows he enjoys it, and is able to rationalise and deal with this important part of himself.... for the moment, at least. He's a Double-O because he wants to be one, and he's by and large having an absolute whale of a time being one. But he loves Vesper more, and this is natural and believable - for one thing, he's a guy in his late 30s who still hasn't married. But this doesn't mean he doesn't love his job too, or that he's seizing at Vesper as a way out. I don't see the story in terms of "the career versus the woman", although I guess I'm in a minority here.

#116 Harmsway

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 12:48 AM

He loves the adventure, he loves the risk, he wants to tempt death - but when he finds Vesper, he's perfectly willing to give that all up for a chance at something more.

I'll buy that. I think where we differ is that I believe Craig's Bond is rather more excited by - and wedded to - the life of danger and battle than you do.

Quite right. I think Bond enjoys it, but he also does it because he knows he's good at it. It's not entirely unlike Jack Bauer, who does what he does because he's good at it, not because he enjoys it (though the difference lies in that Bond enjoys his work to some degree).

There's Dryden's "Made you feel it, did he?" line, of course, but even then I take Bond's expression to be one of physical exhaustion rather than remorse or horror - it was a bloody difficult kill, after all!

The script clearly states that the moment was meant to indicate disgust: "He lets the body slide to the floor, steps back, considering the dead man. Hating him for making this feel so much like...killing." And that's the impression I get, too.

And, of course, there's his overwhelming ice cold psycho attitude when slaying Dryden, a man he cannot possibly have any particular animosity towards, and someone who after all has merely sold a few secrets (small beer in Bond villain terms, you'll agree).

See, I don't think Bond is particularly psychoish in that scene. I think he seems to be rather disgusted with the situation, but at the same time is none too happy with Dryden (who presumably sold secrets and got a few agents killed, maybe even a friend of Bonds).

One really shudders to imagine how Craig's Bond would behave towards someone who'd actually wronged him!

We do know. See Mr. White, who got shot in the kneecap.

I think really enjoys it, and the "I wouldn't be very good at my job" line shows that, as an intelligent and honest man, he knows he enjoys it, and is able to rationalise and deal with this important part of himself.... for the moment, at least.

If anything, though, Vesper's stating that she doesn't believe him (and she's been set up as quite the perceptive gal) indicates we're not supposed to take that line at face value.

He's a Double-O because he wants to be one, and he's by and large having an absolute whale of a time being one.

You think so? I don't. I think he's enjoying himself during some of the less intense moments, like the stuff in Nassau or during the card game, but I don't think he's particularly that enthusiastic about some of the other aspects.

Furthermore, I think he seems positively melancholy when he says, "I understand Double-Os have a very short life expectancy." But again, your reading of scenes seems very different to mine - I see a look of horror on his face after killing Fisher in the bathroom, as well as some despair sinking through after he's killed Obanno.

#117 Loomis

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 12:59 AM

Dryden (who presumably sold secrets and got a few agents killed, maybe even a friend of Bonds).


Point taken. I guess it's not purely that he sold secrets - the real problem is what can result from secrets being sold!

Furthermore, I think he seems positively melancholy when he says, "I understand Double-Os have a very short life expectancy." But again, your reading of scenes seems very different to mine - I see a look of horror on his face after killing Fisher in the bathroom, as well as some despair sinking through after he's killed Obanno.


The Obanno bit is a good point. Again, though, I see exhaustion rather than despair or anything else, although there's no reason why he has to be feeling just one thing.

Perhaps what the film is truly about is Bond's internal conflicts about being good at and enjoying a job that has a lot of horrible elements to it, and finally he realises: yeah, you know what, I can do this gig - bring on my theme tune, baby! I'm not sure whether I'm wholly or partially kidding, or just devil's advocating, or whatever - for the moment, I think I believe this; but I guess this just shows what a terrific film CASINO ROYALE is, that we can ponder the subtext in this way. We've never discussed what Bond is thinking during A VIEW TO A KILL (and, to save ourselves the trouble, I'll venture that it's never anything more profound than "Where's my next slice of good quiche coming from?" and "Is that another buxom blonde half my age I see over there?"). :cooltongue:

#118 kneelbeforezod

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 01:48 AM

the unfortunate story of a man having his dark, impersonal beliefs reaffirmed as a consequence of his first earnest attempts at salvaging his humanity. What we're left with is a cold and broken soul whom we can pity, but at the same time a now-resolute anti-hero for whom we can cheer. That's how I see it at least, and it works for me.

You have just described Roger Moore's James Bond.

...seriously though, you have totally nailed it there.

#119 Publius

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 04:45 AM

Publius calls him a reluctant killer a couple of posts back - well, at not one single, solitary point in the film do I get the feeling that Craig's Bond is any way reluctant about killing or (yet, at least) particularly bothered by it.

Yeah, that's probably why we diverge in our opinions as much as we do. I honestly think he was not too thrilled about killing Fisher, and probably even Dryden. His icy banter with him seems partly driven by a genuine disgust with the man (Craig strikes me as the most patriotic of the Bonds), so I think the smiling and "yes, considerably" after the kill had more to do with satisfaction in dispatching the lowest form of scum, not so much in the actual act of assassination. Even the "do you want a clean kill" line to M struck me as masculine bravado, which was very much in character for Craig's Bond. So it's not so much an aversion to killing, just something he'd rather avoid (despite his tough talk...damn that "armor" of his), although cheating death and offing terrorists in the process do provide him a sense of hard-earned relief.

As for why he's a double-oh, I think it's simply a matter of doing what he's good at, same reason I think the reluctant Dalton ("if he fires me I'll thank him for it") was. He did his stint in the military, was damn effective, intelligence duties came along, was just as great there, and finally the big promotion, which he was unsurprisingly also good at. Then Vesper enters the equation, he has his ego checked and balls beat, and he begins to doubt the path he had until then been gallantly striding down. The rest is history.

#120 punkinpuss

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 07:43 AM

While I agree with most of Harmsway's checklist, I think the key to keeping Craig's tenure fresh and not formulaic is much simpler (and harder) than that: keep a strong focus on characterization, make each character and story element earn its place in the overall story and it won't become formulaic. Producers rely on formulas because that's what they think will make the most money -- the same crap the suckers bought last time. Lazy storytelling relies on cliches and formulas because the only point is to get from one scene to the next, with things like characterization a distant afterthought.

There's no reason why Q or Moneypenny couldn't be reinvented for the Craig movies. If M can be a woman without losing her most essential usefulness to the Bond story, then they can find ways to make Q or Moneypenny interesting and useful. Is it necessary? Probably not, but that really depends on the story for each successive movie.

As for Bond's character arc in CR, I doubt Craig would've taken the role if he didn't feel that Bond was going through some very real emotional and pyschological changes, but they're all very subtly underplayed. For instance, his reaction to Solange's death -- the terse "no" to M's question about emotional attachment not being his problem and the same response "single" to Vesper's remark that smart women aren't his type. That's one tightly wound fellow.

Loomis doesn't see any evolution for Bond in CR and that pov makes sense too -- we don't see any outward sign of changes in Bond, nothing that is out of keeping with what we've already seen. However, I think there's a lot inferred in the last 2 scenes, the only ones after Vesper's death, where he's on the phone with M and then shooting Mr. White. A helluva lot of key things come out in that phone call. Bond realizes:
(a) that Vesper saved his life,
(:cooltongue: that Vesper's betrayal was of a different nature than he'd imagined, revealing her to be more victim than villain,
© that if she left her mobile for him to find then there might be more that she wanted him to know, and when he finds it (White's phone #), he trusts that it's not a trap, but a clue to the Organization behind Le Chiffre, and more importantly, to the people truly responsible for her death. Would he have tried to track down the Organization on his own at that point if he didn't blame them for Vesper's death? I doubt it. He was ready to fly back to London and get on with the next assignment.

When we see him shoot down Mr. White, does anybody think he's doing it just for Queen and country? Of course not, it's revenge for Vesper, or the beginnings of it. It's personal. You can see the self-satisfaction of triumph in his face. How is it different from blowing up Carlos or shooting Mollaka? He's got the big picture this time. He's not going to kill Mr. White, well, not right away. He's realized that he's got a job that's more complicated than just killing people. M admonished him after the embassy killings and by the end of the movie, his actions show that he's not just a blunt instrument anymore.

He's already got all the technical and physical skills necessary for his job -- it's the psychological ones he needs to hone. But the dogged, sheer bloodymindedness of this Bond? That was already there.

How? I don't see it. Right at the start of the film, he's capable of blowing a man (and a family man) away without a second's hesitation, making a cold quip at the same time. How exactly is it possible for Bond to get any emotionally tougher than that?


Is he emotionally tougher by the end of the movie? Yes, but not as a killer, as lover. He's just as coldblooded at his job as before, but his armor is back on as far as loving another woman. Also as M points out, he doesn't trust anyone anymore, he's learned his lesson.

The way I see Bond in CASINO ROYALE is this. He's a born killer, and he knows it, but once he's really gotten into the profession, it begins to take its toll on him. He finds Vesper, finds a way out, but at the last minute, Vesper tears him out of that and ironically has the effect of setting him on his original track more firmly than he was before.


Interesting, but I'll make some quibbles. I'm not sure anyone is a born killer, but I'm more inclined to think of him as Vesper characterized him -- a maladjusted young man shaped by emotional damage and a government's eagerness to turn weakness into strength for their own advantage. If killing takes a toll on him, he doesn't allow himself to admit it. Except to Vesper on the beach, when he admits that he wants to get out while he's still got a soul left to salvage. I don't think that Vesper is the way out so much as a different life line. His job feeds his ego and he needs that. When he falls in love, he finds something much more fulfilling than bedding lots of willing women -- for the first time, he's in love with someone who loves him back. When you have that, you feel that you can do anything. Obviously he knows what it's like to be desired and wanted, but that elusive love thang? Not so much, not until Vesper.

In other words, Casino Royale is the unfortunate story of a man having his dark, impersonal beliefs reaffirmed as a consequence of his first earnest attempts at salvaging his humanity. What we're left with is a cold and broken soul whom we can pity, but at the same time a now-resolute anti-hero for whom we can cheer. That's how I see it at least, and it works for me.


Yup, that works for me, too. And we finally have a Bond that we can all relate to, after all, who hasn't had their heart broken at least once in this vale of tears? The difference is that most of us don't have machetes and gunplay featuring in our romantic problems, at least I hope not!

There's Dryden's "Made you feel it, did he?" line, of course, but even then I take Bond's expression to be one of physical exhaustion rather than remorse or horror - it was a bloody difficult kill, after all!


Hmm, I took Bond's reaction to that as discomfort at Dryden's perception. And he cuts him off before he can go on about it, by shooting him, ironically. He doesn't want to be reminded of that first, really visceral kill.

The Obanno bit is a good point. Again, though, I see exhaustion rather than despair or anything else, although there's no reason why he has to be feeling just one thing.


Agree, there's a lot going on in that scene - exhaustion, pain, shock, disgust, relief - he looks like all his nerves are exposed and he can barely keep it together.

Great thread!