205 replies to this topic

[hcmv007]

2 questions?

1) As the Bond film series has developed and the actors have changed, has it bee the understanding that they ae portraying the EXACT same character, or that there have been a series of 007s, each one following on from the last - admittedly very similar - incumbent?

2) Assuming it is meant to be the same character, there is still a hel of a lot of belief-suspension that is necessary to watch the films.  Not in terms of his ker-azy stunts, but in as much as M suddenly became a woman didn't she? Plus, Simpsons-like, he does not age while the world around him changes.  The producers of the film have never tried to make him a time-bound character.  Bond is not set in the 70s or 80s or 90s, it is set in the day the film is made. 

If we can suspend our disbelief to accomodate these things, then why not enouh to accept a black Bond?

The 'Bond IS White argument' does not wash with me I'm afraid.  It is an easy answer - can you be honest and say that there is nothing at all underlying this?  Nothing that makes some people inherently undeasy about the idea of a black man representing the old symbol of stiff-upper-lip heterosexual britishness that is Bond?

Convince me.

The problem with a black Bond is the fact that's not what he was created by Fleming as. If Fleming made Bond a black man, fine. He didn't. What angers a lot of people is if we change the race of, say, Spider-Man, it wouldn't fly. It can work for Iron-Man, and did, because he wears a helmet, the average person can't tell what he look like. Did anyone even read what I posted earlier on this topic? Please read it. If we change Bond to be black, let's have a white Shaft. Let's have an asian Blade. When you do that, you make those characters ridiculous. That's what would happen to Bond. XXX is a black superspy, he should not be white. Fine. I can live with that. Shaft should forever be black. So should Blade. Kato should be forever Asian. Steel should be forever black. Static Shock should be forever black. Jon Stewart/Green Lantern should forever be black. If you want good exampoles of black heroes, there you go. But if Bond is black, Shaft should then be white. The ball is your court now, Hangeron. I hope this convinces you.

[David Schofield]

[quote name='hcmv007' date='23 June 2005 - 14:05'][quote name='hangeron' date='23 June 2005 - 07:06']2 questions?

1) As the Bond film series has developed and the actors have changed, has it bee the understanding that they ae portraying the EXACT same character, or that there have been a series of 007s, each one following on from the last - admittedly very similar - incumbent?

2) Assuming it is meant to be the same character, there is still a hel of a lot of belief-suspension that is necessary to watch the films.

[Bon-san]

Cat. Meet pigeons.

LOL! You kill me, spy. Nice stuff.

[spynovelfan]

The problem with a black Bond is the fact that's not what he was created by Fleming as. 

But Fleming never created a character who wore Italian-made off-the-peg suits and didn't smoke, either, did he? The character has been changed over the years, in various ways. The point about any change is: does it fundamentally alter the character? In the case of skin colour, because it's such a visible change, the knee-jerk reaction is 'Yes! Of course changing his colour makes a difference to the character!' But does it? *How*? Instead of endless parroting that Shaft is black so Bond must be white, try and think why it's important for Shaft to be black - his outlook on life, his history, where he grew up, the language he uses, none of which would be plausible if acted by a white actor - and then ask how the same applies to James Bond. I contend that making Bond wear Brioni alters the character more than casting a black actor would have to.

Convince me otherwise, with *arguments that are reasoned* and then I will sign on the line that is dotted.

[David Schofield]

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='23 June 2005 - 15:03'][quote name='hcmv007' date='23 June 2005 - 14:05']The problem with a black Bond is the fact that's not what he was created by Fleming as.

[spynovelfan]

Well, of course Fleming's Bond couldn't be portrayed by a black actor. I'm taking it as a given that the films feature a character at several removes from Fleming's 'original vision of a ruthless government assassin' TM*. Put it another way - would you be able to have a non-period Bond film in 2006 in which the main character patronised black people, smoked several packs of cigarettes, took benzedrine, drank like a fish and was openly sexist? Say, for arguments' sake, they decided to remake OHMSS. Do you think they could have Tracy deliver this piece of dialogue:

"I said 'no conversation'. Take off those clothes. Make love to me. You are handsome and strong. I want to remember what it can be like. Do anything you like. And tell me what you like and what you would like from me. Be rough with me. Treat me like the lowest whore in creation. Forget everything else. No questions. Take me."

Because I don't. If you're saying Bond has to be white because Ian Fleming made him white, surely you'd have to also argue that they should introduce or reintroduce some of the characteristics he had in Fleming's novels that were a whole lot more important than his colour.

Alternatively, everyone could just shout 'BOND IS WHITE! YOU CAN'T CHANGE HIS COLOUR - THAT'S JUST PLAIN OLD WRONG. END OF DISCUSSION!' again and again. It certainly beats having to come up with a decent argument.


*Is he really an assassin? Or does it just sound cooler than saying he's a secret agent who, like all secret agents, is licenced to kill in the line of duty? Watch the Bourne movies, they're great. Hugh Dancy will be the next Bond.**

**Just thought I'd make this a full spynovelfan post.

[David Schofield]

Well, of course Fleming's Bond couldn't be portrayed by a black actor. I'm taking it as a given that the films feature a character at several removes from Fleming's 'original vision of a ruthless government assassin' TM*. Put it another way - would you be able to have a non-period Bond film in 2006 in which the main character patronised black people, smoked several packs of cigarettes, took benzedrine, drank like a fish and was openly sexist? Say, for arguments' sake, they decided to remake OHMSS. Do you think they could have Tracy deliver this piece of dialogue:

"I said 'no conversation'. Take off those clothes. Make love to me. You are handsome and strong. I want to remember what it can be like. Do anything you like. And tell me what you like and what you would like from me. Be rough with me. Treat me like the lowest whore in creation. Forget everything else. No questions. Take me."

Because I don't. If you're saying Bond has to be white because Ian Fleming made him white, surely you'd have to also argue that they should introduce or reintroduce some of the characteristics he had in Fleming's novels that were a whole lot more important than his colour.

Alternatively, everyone could just shout 'BOND IS WHITE! YOU CAN'T CHANGE HIS COLOUR - THAT'S JUST PLAIN OLD WRONG. END OF DISCUSSION!' again and again. It certainly beats having to come up with a decent argument.


*Is he really an assassin? Or does it just sound cooler than saying he's a secret agent who, like all secret agents, is licenced to kill in the line of duty? Watch the Bourne movies, they're great. Hugh Dancy will be the next Bond.**

**Just thought I'd make this a full spynovelfan post.

Spy, you OUGHT to know I'd want the next Bond to have Fleming's characteristics.

Shove him in a Bentley Continental GT, wear Saville Row and make reference to it, that he buys hand made cigarettes, will ONLY stay in the best hotel in each place, drink certain champagne only, martini specifically made, is a civil servant but has a private income as an inheritance, went to Eton, thinks little of foreigners, thinks women are for one think only...

Shake the movies up nicely.

[rogermoore007]

[quote name='spynovelfan' date='22 June 2005 - 16:10'][quote name='rogermoore007' date='22 June 2005 - 19:04']I remember this topic. I argued with spynovelfan and it became a heated argument about racism...uh oh

Edited by rogermoore007, 23 June 2005 - 03:43 PM.

[Mister Asterix]

What angers a lot of people is if we change the race of, say, Spider-Man, it wouldn't fly.

Actually, I wanted Wesley Snipes to play Spider-Man.

Jon Stewart/Green Lantern should forever be black.

[mra] Interesting example. The Green Lantern was, of course, originally white and later changed to Black, but they did this by making him a different guy.

As for the other examples, (Shaft, Blade, Kato) some would argue that they are not valid comparison to Bond as the race of the character is one of the main (if not the first) characteristic of the character. Describe John Shaft in a sentence and his race will come up. The IMDb has

[spynovelfan]

Spy, you OUGHT to know I'd want the next Bond to have Fleming's characteristics.

Shove him in a Bentley Continental GT, wear Saville Row and make reference to it, that he buys hand made cigarettes, will ONLY stay in the best hotel in each place, drink certain champagne only, martini specifically made, is a civil servant but has a private income as an inheritance, went to Eton, thinks little of foreigners, thinks women are for one think only...

Shake the movies up nicely.

Sure, I know that's what you want. But you must be able to see that it's not possible in 2005, no? Bond smokes like a chimney in Fleming's novels - he can't in the films, because parents' associations would freak out and there would be a boycott, and it would probably affect the box office. The certain champagnes he drinks and cars he drives are dictated by sponsorship deals. The thinks little of foreigners thing - how are you going to do that one? Pick a nation you don't want any revenue from. Most people accept that James Bond has changed since Ian Fleming's day because he had to - times have changed, too.

The idea of a black Bond would be unworkable, for reasons given by me and others in this thread and elsewhere, but frankly said I think it would necessitate a lot less changing of Fleming's character than what has already taken place. Bond's colour was largely irrelevant in most of Fleming's novels. Now the character is no longer period, the reason he was white has all but vanished. I think society has also changed enough that it would be unreasonable to expect the character to have the sexism and racism of the originals, too - those were also products of the period and to have them now would be to change the spirit of the character because they would make him stick out much more than he's meant to. It was Bond's entire universe, pretty much, that held those views. Being misogynistic in 1961 didn't make you hate the guy - it was fairly standard. Do it now and most of your audience loses sympathy for the character - which is not the point, and never was. So by keeping him the same you'd actually change the character.

But his tastes have changed, and changed in a way that is not dictated by society, but by Eon's business plan. Some of the brands Fleming's Bond favoured no longer exist, of course, but many still do - and Bond doesn't use them. And even in the case where the brand doesn't exist or wasn't specified in Fleming, there has been little or no attempt to be faithful to the spirit of the character. There's no earthly way Fleming's Bond in the 21st century should be using a Philips razor. It could be argued that changes in the film industry necessitated these changes just as societal changes necessitated having Bond give up smoking and holding racist views. But I think there's a pretty strong case to say a film featuring Colin Salmon wearing a Kilgour tux would be more faithful than one with Colin Farrell in a Brioni one. Bond's clothes are about 27.9 times more important than his colour.

[spynovelfan]

I didn't say you accused anyone of racism but the discussion of a black or asian Bond as I remember panned out into a discussion of racism and reverse-racism, feelings of which were spawned by Honor Blackman's comments. Wasn't trying to be unfair.

Fair enough.

And I have a question. If Bond became black, could they say Ian Fleming's James Bond in: (add title here) any more?
The man in the movies, however they have been tweaked, is still Ian Fleming's James Bond. And Ian Fleming's Bond was not black or asian. His dad was Scottish and his mom was swiss. Do you know any black people with that family heritage??? No. I know it sounds like the same old argument but it's true.

That's because it is the same old argument. When was the last time it was mentioned in the films that Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss? And no, I don't know any black people with that heritage, and I imagine it would be pretty rare. But it's perfectly possible, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='23 June 2005 - 15:38']As for the other examples, (Shaft, Blade, Kato) some would argue that they are not valid comparison to Bond as the race of the character is one of the main (if not the first) characteristic of the character. Describe John Shaft in a sentence and his race will come up... You can

[rogermoore007]

I didn't say you accused anyone of racism but the discussion of a black or asian Bond as I remember panned out into a discussion of racism and reverse-racism, feelings of which were spawned by Honor Blackman's comments. Wasn't trying to be unfair.

Fair enough.

And I have a question. If Bond became black, could they say Ian Fleming's James Bond in: (add title here) any more?
The man in the movies, however they have been tweaked, is still Ian Fleming's James Bond. And Ian Fleming's Bond was not black or asian. His dad was Scottish and his mom was swiss. Do you know any black people with that family heritage??? No. I know it sounds like the same old argument but it's true.

That's because it is the same old argument. When was the last time it was mentioned in the films that Bond was half Scottish and half Swiss? And no, I don't know any black people with that heritage, and I imagine it would be pretty rare. But it's perfectly possible, so I don't see why it would be a problem.

So you would say that changing the brand of Bond's razor or cologne or whatever changes him more than making him black??

[Stephenson]

Nobody would be shocked at a suave and charming black MI6 agent.

They would be if you called him James Bond.

I tried to make this point before: you are trying to approach this from a logical position and as right as you may be on certain points, it is irrelevant because this isn't a logical issue, it is an emotional one. Why wouldn't a black James Bond work? Because as soon as the general audience saw they advertising they would almost collectively say, "What the HELL? THAT'S not James Bond; Bond is a white guy!" You speak as though race wouldn't be an issue at all in this transition, but you know as well as I do that the media wouldn't be able to let this go for a second. "How does it feel to be the first black Bond? Is there a lot of pressure attached to this role?" And if the movie failed at the box office? What factor do you think would get the blame?

As for the not so subtle accusations of racism that have been posted: Bond has always displayed the personality (such as it is), affectations and mannerisms of a character born into priveleged, white male, heterosexual British society, no matter what brands he chooses. What makes you think a black man would want to display those same character traits? "Sure a black man could play Bond, because he can act just like a rich white guy!" Not recognizing the differences in our respective cultures is just as much racism as belittle them.

And Rogermoore007, I agree with you: no I don't think they could call it "Ian Fleming's James Bond", because he was definitely white.

[Mister Asterix]

...He's not fixed in his period in the same way as Sherlock Holmes...

[mra]You never saw Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon, I take it?

However, the

[Monsieur B]

Here's what I don't understand, I've seen numerous times on these forums that James Bond doesn't need to follow the Batman path and reboot the whole series since it's fine the way it is (just needs better scripts, IMO I say get new scriptwriters). Wouldn't changing Bond's skin colour ultimately reboot the series? Bond has been white for almost 50 years, why change he skin colour? What would that gain or accomplish? I say, if it isn't broken then why fix it? Besides, I doubt The Powers That Be at EON would dare tamper with something like that. Bond has been white for his whole existence, why should he suddenly become black? I don't think that EON is that stupid because the public wouldn't buy it and EON would lose a lot of money. Not a wise choice, I say.

Edited by K. A. B, 23 June 2005 - 05:01 PM.

[spynovelfan]

So you would say that changing the brand of Bond's razor or cologne or whatever changes him more than making him black??

No. I'd say just what I said, rather than reducing it to a more facile and un-nuanced argument that would miss out most of my reasoning.

[spynovelfan]

#49 Stephenson

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 07:39 PM

"because Bond's colour is pretty ireelevant"

And that's where we disagree. The skin color is irrelevant only if the black actor plays Bond the way he's been played for the last forty years: as a heterosexual white man from a privileged British background. Sure, certain characteristics have been changed according to the actors, but they have all shared that common background. So the black actor needs to check any ethnicity he would bring to the role, anything that would made Bond "black" in the eyes of the audience.

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#50 spynovelfan

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 07:44 PM

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='23 June 2005 - 16:55']You never saw Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon, I take it?
[/quote]

No. Does it work? How is it viewed by Conan Doyle fans? I have seen some dire film in which Sherlock Holmes is in modern-day New York. And some time travel film with Biggles in the present day, too. But you don't think my point was that it wouldn't be possible to make a film with these characters in other periods, surely? My point was that it would not be artistically advisable. It would be *possible* to cast a black actor as Bond, and then I could say 'You never saw PROPERTY OF A LADY starring Chris Rock as James Bond?' Surely what we are discussing is whether or not it would work.

[quote]However, the

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#51 spynovelfan

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 07:59 PM

"because Bond's colour is pretty ireelevant"

And that's where we disagree. The skin color is irrelevant only if the black actor plays Bond the way he's been played for the last forty years: as a heterosexual white man from a privileged British background. Sure, certain characteristics have been changed according to the actors, but they have all shared that common background. So the black actor needs to check any ethnicity he would bring to the role, anything that would made Bond "black" in the eyes of the audience.

I don't really understand what you mean. What would checking his ethnicity involve, exactly? Leaving aside a visit to Africa, where the world around him would raise it, why would the actor have to change a thing? I think the way Bond has been played for the last forty years is as a heterosexual male from a privileged British background. I don't see where the white bit has ever been relevant, apart from tangentially in LIVE AND LET DIE - but that was in another country, and besides the henchman is dead. In the recent films, Colin Salmon has played a tall, handsome, efficient MI6 officer with received pronunciation. Was he playing the character 'white'? Of course not! Was he playing the character 'black'? Of course not! Colour is just irrelevant to that character. Granted, it's a pretty small part, and there's not a lot to the character. But there's not a hell of a lot to James Bond, and all he'd really have to add was a few dry one-liners, order some Martinis, look a bit sad when someone mentions his wife and just do a lot more stunts than Robinson. If Salmon was playing Bond - in my hypothetical world - in CASINO ROYALE, where do you think he would go wrong? How would he have to 'check his ethnicity'? What would he have to change from Robinson to 'play the character white'?

Did Bernie Casey's performance of Felix Leiter create a storm of protest? No, because he was playing Felix Leiter, not Bond, so it wasn't quite as radical. But surely the same thing applies. Leiter is a chum of Bond's. A CIA agent. A good guy, easy-going. He was white in Fleming. But it was basically irrelevant. Ignoring all the legal reasons they did it, I see no real difference between Casey being Leiter as any of the other characters who have played that part. In 1962, casting a black actor as Leiter probably wouldn't have worked, because it would have invited comment that a black man had made it as a CIA officer, and the spy thriller would have been hijacked by some needless political stuff. But 21 years later, it's unremarkable that a CIA officer is black, and so it's unremarkable that the character has changed colour. Leiter's hardly a complex character, either - and certainly not in NSNA. But I think the point still stands. We're 22 years after NSNA, and I really don't think - in *theory* - it would make much difference if Bond were black.

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#52 Stephenson

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:40 PM

Sorry, but I don't find that valid at all. Both Felix and Leiter are minor characters and not at all at the center of the action, as you yourself say. The fact that they can be invented, re-invented, eliminated or re-introduced shows how unimportant they are. However we are talking about the star of the franchise, whom the public has seen as a white British agent for forty years now. They don't want to follow Robinson or Leiter around for an entire movie, they want Bond because they know him and they know he's fun.

You yourself say it: "I think the way Bond has been played for the last forty years is as a heterosexual male from a privileged British background." The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given. Granted, this is rightly changing today, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie? There's the "exotic" Bond girl and .... Robinson? Yes, now I can see why we keep coming back to him

As for the issue of ethnicity, for this transition to work, by your own admittance, the actor would have to play Bond so that the skin color was a non-issue. In other words, Bond's behavior could not change any more than it has in the past when the actor has changed, and definitely could not change in any way that would indicate that he is ethnically different than he has been in the last forty years. Well, of course ethnicity hasn't been an issue in the past: you've had white men playing a white character. Except now you are asking a black actor to step into that role and to pretend like he is just the same as those that came before him. And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode? Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

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#53 spynovelfan

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:54 PM

And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode?

I don't know - he suddenly starts acting 'black'?

Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

Well, I'd have hoped that after you worked for a few years in MI6, you wouldn't have your colour raised every single day. But even if it were raised, it's a film. We don't see his whole day. Do you honestly believe that James Bond never masturbates? It's either that or sticky sheets (copyright Viz, circa 1991). We don't see Bond masturbating, or going to the loo, or scratching his behind, or losing track of what he was saying, or reading a book - doesn't mean he's never done any of it.

The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given.

Indeed.

Granted, this is rightly changing today,

And there's my point.

but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie?

In the average Bond movie? Very few - all the more reason why there should be more, surely? Bond has to keep up with the times, no? Hold your horses! I am not. Repeat not. Saying they should cast a black actor as Bond. But why wouldn't it work on film? Taking as a given that Colin Salmon could project suaveness, dry wit, arrogance, disrespect for authority and Q Branch gadgets in particular, and leaving aside the problem that he's already in the series - what would be unBondish about him? How does race affect Bond *now*? And yes, I know the public wouldn't accept it - I've made that point several times, a couple of times on this page. That's not what I'm looking at.

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#54 hcmv007

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:16 PM

Just one more question to throw out there: Why is it necessary for Bond to be black?

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#55 Mister Asterix

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:18 PM

Sorry, but I don't find that valid at all. Both Felix and Leiter are minor characters and not at all at the center of the action, as you yourself say. The fact that they can be invented, re-invented, eliminated or re-introduced shows how unimportant they are.

[mra]Not to mention the fact that some don

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#56 Mister Asterix

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:24 PM

Just one more question to throw out there:  Why is it necessary for Bond to be black?

[mra]It

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#57 Bondian

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:26 PM

Honor A. Blackman.

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#58 Double-Oh-Zero

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 09:49 PM

Fascinating discussion, this.

The issue of James Bond being played by a black man has always been a tricky one. I think, spynovelfan, that you are partially correct in saying that Bond *could* be played by a black man (theoretically, mind) in today's films.

Assuming, however, that it was the first Bond film, and the novels never picked up beyond the Flemings. I know you hate this sort of answer, spy, but it's just a fact that people have been used to Bond being white for 50+ years. If people hadn't known about Bond for this long, it could work fine. As a side note, Jackie Brown is a great example of this; Jackie was white in the novel, but made black in Tarantino's film. Not a lot of people cared, because not a lot of people knew that when they saw the film. Again, it could be done today with Bond, but it'd be pretty freakin' awkward to most people. And therein lies the problem. It probably wouldn't work because audiences wouldn't accept it that easily.

But I'm straying from your point there, for which I apologise. On the whole, I agree that it *could* work theoretically, but it'd be iffy. What I don't entirely agree with, however, is that "his race isn't all that important." You mention that smoking or other character traits from the originals are more important, but at the same time, Bond could just as easily start wearing Savile Row suits again and take up smoking again without too much of a hassle. It's easy to accept that Bond quit smoking or changed his suit preferences. It's harder to believe that Bond "changed his race preference" or "quit being white."

On the whole, I think it'd be perfectly feasible if Bond was black, if you disregarded the 50+ years of continuity. But I reeeeally don't think they should try it. Interesting points you make, though.

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#59 Stephenson

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 11:11 PM

And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode?

I don't know - he suddenly starts acting 'black'?

Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

Well, I'd have hoped that after you worked for a few years in MI6, you wouldn't have your colour raised every single day. But even if it were raised, it's a film. We don't see his whole day. Do you honestly believe that James Bond never masturbates? It's either that or sticky sheets (copyright Viz, circa 1991). We don't see Bond masturbating, or going to the loo, or scratching his behind, or losing track of what he was saying, or reading a book - doesn't mean he's never done any of it.

The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given.

Indeed.

Granted, this is rightly changing today,

And there's my point.

but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie?

In the average Bond movie? Very few - all the more reason why there should be more, surely? Bond has to keep up with the times, no? Hold your horses! I am not. Repeat not. Saying they should cast a black actor as Bond. But why wouldn't it work on film? Taking as a given that Colin Salmon could project suaveness, dry wit, arrogance, disrespect for authority and Q Branch gadgets in particular, and leaving aside the problem that he's already in the series - what would be unBondish about him? How does race affect Bond *now*? And yes, I know the public wouldn't accept it - I've made that point several times, a couple of times on this page. That's not what I'm looking at.

Having fun with this, so I'll keep going

First, of course he starts acting "black"; he's a black man. Our ethnic or cultural identity infuses too many of the varied elements that make us "who we are" to begin to count, including our values, motivations, hobbies, who we are attracted to. I'm not saying that this makes us all caricatures or stereotypes. What I am saying is that Bond comes from a very specific background, white upperclass privilege, and this goes a long way to making him who he is. It is also a background that shares a very specific relationship with the background of a black male, no matter what time period we are discussing. I think you are trying to suggest that a black actor would be able to step into the Bond universe of today, where (suspend disbelief!) he hasn't changed or aged in any fundamental way in forty years, where the events of Moonraker or LTK or GF happened just a couple of years ago, and the people he works with will accept that he has been black that entire time. I'm sorry, but the time on the Kentucky ranch would have been much different if Bond were black. As would his time in Mexico, or North Korea. Never mind Jamaica or India. If this was a one-off movie, then maybe, but we are talking about a franchise and character that has spanned decades, and the only real constant has been the "idea" of Bond, within his universe and without. Even within his universe, because of social conditions, a black man would not have been able to accomplish what a white Bond did.

As for scratching, touching and otherwise indulging our urges, we don't see him do this things (aside from obvious reasons ) because they are not specific to the character. We all do it. However, walking around like you're the toughest player in the game because you kicked some guy's in Jamaica, or Mexico or Russia or Haiti is fundamental to the character, and all things a black Bond would have had a harder time doing because of the colour of his skin. As you well know, South Africa isn't the only country with racism.

So why wouldn't it work in the Bond universe? Because a 40 year old black man would not share the same history, have the same outlooks, carry himself in the same way as a 40 year old white man would. And we don't know enough about Robinson to say that he would. Bond's universe has been built around a white man, with all that that entails, and to force a black man to assume that his experiences have been the same would be false (if not insulting). It wouldn't be better, it wouldn't be worse, it would just be different and that means it wouldn't be Bond.

Minor characters? Sure, why not? Make Moneypenny Asian, make Q Indian, make Felix and Leiter ( gotme Mr.* ) black. It won't really change a thing.

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#60 Tarl_Cabot

Tarl_Cabot

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 01:53 AM

His socio-political-economic world view would be totally different if his race were changed.

I don't think that would necessarily be the case. Of course it would be different - but perhaps not so different it couldn't simply be ignored. A black 35-year-old man could have been raised his entire life in the UK. He could have attended Eton, Fettes and Cambridge, and then joined MI6. He could be right-wing, drive an Aston Martin, wear tailored suits, live in Chelsea, be a member of a London club, have had a string of girlfriends after the tragic death of his wife an unspecified number of years ago, have no discernible taste in culture and yet know all about it, be dry, arrogant and charming, but essentially soulless. He could save the world on demand every few years. All we have in the films of Bond's socio-political-economic world view is this kind of thing - it's not exactly gone into in tremendous detail, is it? I think race *is* a superficial attribute... to the character of James Bond. I don't favour the idea, for reasons gone into, but I don't find it nearly as outrageous as some do. I'd find the casting of Colin Salmon as Bond infinitely preferable to Colin Farrell, Dougray Scott or Adrian Paul, for example. I think he's a lot more Bond-ish than any of them.

There was a guy on the shortlived 80's TV series return of 'Mission Impossible'(actually pretty damn good show-much better than those crappy Cruise vanity project$) who looked like a Black James Bond.Ok, so you can imagine a high class brittish african guy but he will still be a desendant of africa...it's not Fleming's vision of Bond. He is a brittish white guy and his socio-political-economic world view reflect a white caucasion who serves the Queen of a country which was the superpower in the world during the 19th centry. Sorry, but race isn't superficial when you bring heritage into the discussion.I agree the white men you selected all are awful for Bond, btw.

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[Stephenson]

"because Bond's colour is pretty ireelevant"

And that's where we disagree. The skin color is irrelevant only if the black actor plays Bond the way he's been played for the last forty years: as a heterosexual white man from a privileged British background. Sure, certain characteristics have been changed according to the actors, but they have all shared that common background. So the black actor needs to check any ethnicity he would bring to the role, anything that would made Bond "black" in the eyes of the audience.

[spynovelfan]

[quote name='Mister Asterix' date='23 June 2005 - 16:55']You never saw Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon, I take it?
[/quote]

No. Does it work? How is it viewed by Conan Doyle fans? I have seen some dire film in which Sherlock Holmes is in modern-day New York. And some time travel film with Biggles in the present day, too. But you don't think my point was that it wouldn't be possible to make a film with these characters in other periods, surely? My point was that it would not be artistically advisable. It would be *possible* to cast a black actor as Bond, and then I could say 'You never saw PROPERTY OF A LADY starring Chris Rock as James Bond?' Surely what we are discussing is whether or not it would work.

[quote]However, the

[spynovelfan]

"because Bond's colour is pretty ireelevant"

And that's where we disagree. The skin color is irrelevant only if the black actor plays Bond the way he's been played for the last forty years: as a heterosexual white man from a privileged British background. Sure, certain characteristics have been changed according to the actors, but they have all shared that common background. So the black actor needs to check any ethnicity he would bring to the role, anything that would made Bond "black" in the eyes of the audience.

I don't really understand what you mean. What would checking his ethnicity involve, exactly? Leaving aside a visit to Africa, where the world around him would raise it, why would the actor have to change a thing? I think the way Bond has been played for the last forty years is as a heterosexual male from a privileged British background. I don't see where the white bit has ever been relevant, apart from tangentially in LIVE AND LET DIE - but that was in another country, and besides the henchman is dead. In the recent films, Colin Salmon has played a tall, handsome, efficient MI6 officer with received pronunciation. Was he playing the character 'white'? Of course not! Was he playing the character 'black'? Of course not! Colour is just irrelevant to that character. Granted, it's a pretty small part, and there's not a lot to the character. But there's not a hell of a lot to James Bond, and all he'd really have to add was a few dry one-liners, order some Martinis, look a bit sad when someone mentions his wife and just do a lot more stunts than Robinson. If Salmon was playing Bond - in my hypothetical world - in CASINO ROYALE, where do you think he would go wrong? How would he have to 'check his ethnicity'? What would he have to change from Robinson to 'play the character white'?

Did Bernie Casey's performance of Felix Leiter create a storm of protest? No, because he was playing Felix Leiter, not Bond, so it wasn't quite as radical. But surely the same thing applies. Leiter is a chum of Bond's. A CIA agent. A good guy, easy-going. He was white in Fleming. But it was basically irrelevant. Ignoring all the legal reasons they did it, I see no real difference between Casey being Leiter as any of the other characters who have played that part. In 1962, casting a black actor as Leiter probably wouldn't have worked, because it would have invited comment that a black man had made it as a CIA officer, and the spy thriller would have been hijacked by some needless political stuff. But 21 years later, it's unremarkable that a CIA officer is black, and so it's unremarkable that the character has changed colour. Leiter's hardly a complex character, either - and certainly not in NSNA. But I think the point still stands. We're 22 years after NSNA, and I really don't think - in *theory* - it would make much difference if Bond were black.

[Stephenson]

Sorry, but I don't find that valid at all. Both Felix and Leiter are minor characters and not at all at the center of the action, as you yourself say. The fact that they can be invented, re-invented, eliminated or re-introduced shows how unimportant they are. However we are talking about the star of the franchise, whom the public has seen as a white British agent for forty years now. They don't want to follow Robinson or Leiter around for an entire movie, they want Bond because they know him and they know he's fun.

You yourself say it: "I think the way Bond has been played for the last forty years is as a heterosexual male from a privileged British background." The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given. Granted, this is rightly changing today, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie? There's the "exotic" Bond girl and .... Robinson? Yes, now I can see why we keep coming back to him

As for the issue of ethnicity, for this transition to work, by your own admittance, the actor would have to play Bond so that the skin color was a non-issue. In other words, Bond's behavior could not change any more than it has in the past when the actor has changed, and definitely could not change in any way that would indicate that he is ethnically different than he has been in the last forty years. Well, of course ethnicity hasn't been an issue in the past: you've had white men playing a white character. Except now you are asking a black actor to step into that role and to pretend like he is just the same as those that came before him. And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode? Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

[spynovelfan]

And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode?

I don't know - he suddenly starts acting 'black'?

Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

Well, I'd have hoped that after you worked for a few years in MI6, you wouldn't have your colour raised every single day. But even if it were raised, it's a film. We don't see his whole day. Do you honestly believe that James Bond never masturbates? It's either that or sticky sheets (copyright Viz, circa 1991). We don't see Bond masturbating, or going to the loo, or scratching his behind, or losing track of what he was saying, or reading a book - doesn't mean he's never done any of it.

The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given.

Indeed.

Granted, this is rightly changing today,

And there's my point.

but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie?

In the average Bond movie? Very few - all the more reason why there should be more, surely? Bond has to keep up with the times, no? Hold your horses! I am not. Repeat not. Saying they should cast a black actor as Bond. But why wouldn't it work on film? Taking as a given that Colin Salmon could project suaveness, dry wit, arrogance, disrespect for authority and Q Branch gadgets in particular, and leaving aside the problem that he's already in the series - what would be unBondish about him? How does race affect Bond *now*? And yes, I know the public wouldn't accept it - I've made that point several times, a couple of times on this page. That's not what I'm looking at.

[hcmv007]

Just one more question to throw out there: Why is it necessary for Bond to be black?

[Mister Asterix]

Sorry, but I don't find that valid at all. Both Felix and Leiter are minor characters and not at all at the center of the action, as you yourself say. The fact that they can be invented, re-invented, eliminated or re-introduced shows how unimportant they are.

[mra]Not to mention the fact that some don

[Mister Asterix]

Just one more question to throw out there:  Why is it necessary for Bond to be black?

[mra]It

[Bondian]

Honor A. Blackman.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Fascinating discussion, this.

The issue of James Bond being played by a black man has always been a tricky one. I think, spynovelfan, that you are partially correct in saying that Bond *could* be played by a black man (theoretically, mind) in today's films.

Assuming, however, that it was the first Bond film, and the novels never picked up beyond the Flemings. I know you hate this sort of answer, spy, but it's just a fact that people have been used to Bond being white for 50+ years. If people hadn't known about Bond for this long, it could work fine. As a side note, Jackie Brown is a great example of this; Jackie was white in the novel, but made black in Tarantino's film. Not a lot of people cared, because not a lot of people knew that when they saw the film. Again, it could be done today with Bond, but it'd be pretty freakin' awkward to most people. And therein lies the problem. It probably wouldn't work because audiences wouldn't accept it that easily.

But I'm straying from your point there, for which I apologise. On the whole, I agree that it *could* work theoretically, but it'd be iffy. What I don't entirely agree with, however, is that "his race isn't all that important." You mention that smoking or other character traits from the originals are more important, but at the same time, Bond could just as easily start wearing Savile Row suits again and take up smoking again without too much of a hassle. It's easy to accept that Bond quit smoking or changed his suit preferences. It's harder to believe that Bond "changed his race preference" or "quit being white."

On the whole, I think it'd be perfectly feasible if Bond was black, if you disregarded the 50+ years of continuity. But I reeeeally don't think they should try it. Interesting points you make, though.

[Stephenson]

And don't give this Robinson defense: you yourself say we only see him for a few minutes in a movie. How do we know what he's like on assignment? When he's seducing a woman? How his behavior may change when MI:6 isn't in crisis mode?

I don't know - he suddenly starts acting 'black'?

Do you honestly believe that at no point during this man's day, the issue of his ethnicity comes up?

Well, I'd have hoped that after you worked for a few years in MI6, you wouldn't have your colour raised every single day. But even if it were raised, it's a film. We don't see his whole day. Do you honestly believe that James Bond never masturbates? It's either that or sticky sheets (copyright Viz, circa 1991). We don't see Bond masturbating, or going to the loo, or scratching his behind, or losing track of what he was saying, or reading a book - doesn't mean he's never done any of it.

The reason his ethnicity has never been an issue before is because traditionally the vast majority of people from this particular background were white. It was just a given.

Indeed.

Granted, this is rightly changing today,

And there's my point.

but let's not fool ourselves into thinking it is happening rapidly. How many people of different ethnicities with major parts to play do you count in the average Bond movie?

In the average Bond movie? Very few - all the more reason why there should be more, surely? Bond has to keep up with the times, no? Hold your horses! I am not. Repeat not. Saying they should cast a black actor as Bond. But why wouldn't it work on film? Taking as a given that Colin Salmon could project suaveness, dry wit, arrogance, disrespect for authority and Q Branch gadgets in particular, and leaving aside the problem that he's already in the series - what would be unBondish about him? How does race affect Bond *now*? And yes, I know the public wouldn't accept it - I've made that point several times, a couple of times on this page. That's not what I'm looking at.

Having fun with this, so I'll keep going

First, of course he starts acting "black"; he's a black man. Our ethnic or cultural identity infuses too many of the varied elements that make us "who we are" to begin to count, including our values, motivations, hobbies, who we are attracted to. I'm not saying that this makes us all caricatures or stereotypes. What I am saying is that Bond comes from a very specific background, white upperclass privilege, and this goes a long way to making him who he is. It is also a background that shares a very specific relationship with the background of a black male, no matter what time period we are discussing. I think you are trying to suggest that a black actor would be able to step into the Bond universe of today, where (suspend disbelief!) he hasn't changed or aged in any fundamental way in forty years, where the events of Moonraker or LTK or GF happened just a couple of years ago, and the people he works with will accept that he has been black that entire time. I'm sorry, but the time on the Kentucky ranch would have been much different if Bond were black. As would his time in Mexico, or North Korea. Never mind Jamaica or India. If this was a one-off movie, then maybe, but we are talking about a franchise and character that has spanned decades, and the only real constant has been the "idea" of Bond, within his universe and without. Even within his universe, because of social conditions, a black man would not have been able to accomplish what a white Bond did.

As for scratching, touching and otherwise indulging our urges, we don't see him do this things (aside from obvious reasons ) because they are not specific to the character. We all do it. However, walking around like you're the toughest player in the game because you kicked some guy's in Jamaica, or Mexico or Russia or Haiti is fundamental to the character, and all things a black Bond would have had a harder time doing because of the colour of his skin. As you well know, South Africa isn't the only country with racism.

So why wouldn't it work in the Bond universe? Because a 40 year old black man would not share the same history, have the same outlooks, carry himself in the same way as a 40 year old white man would. And we don't know enough about Robinson to say that he would. Bond's universe has been built around a white man, with all that that entails, and to force a black man to assume that his experiences have been the same would be false (if not insulting). It wouldn't be better, it wouldn't be worse, it would just be different and that means it wouldn't be Bond.

Minor characters? Sure, why not? Make Moneypenny Asian, make Q Indian, make Felix and Leiter ( gotme Mr.* ) black. It won't really change a thing.

[Tarl_Cabot]

His socio-political-economic world view would be totally different if his race were changed.

I don't think that would necessarily be the case. Of course it would be different - but perhaps not so different it couldn't simply be ignored. A black 35-year-old man could have been raised his entire life in the UK. He could have attended Eton, Fettes and Cambridge, and then joined MI6. He could be right-wing, drive an Aston Martin, wear tailored suits, live in Chelsea, be a member of a London club, have had a string of girlfriends after the tragic death of his wife an unspecified number of years ago, have no discernible taste in culture and yet know all about it, be dry, arrogant and charming, but essentially soulless. He could save the world on demand every few years. All we have in the films of Bond's socio-political-economic world view is this kind of thing - it's not exactly gone into in tremendous detail, is it? I think race *is* a superficial attribute... to the character of James Bond. I don't favour the idea, for reasons gone into, but I don't find it nearly as outrageous as some do. I'd find the casting of Colin Salmon as Bond infinitely preferable to Colin Farrell, Dougray Scott or Adrian Paul, for example. I think he's a lot more Bond-ish than any of them.

There was a guy on the shortlived 80's TV series return of 'Mission Impossible'(actually pretty damn good show-much better than those crappy Cruise vanity project$) who looked like a Black James Bond.Ok, so you can imagine a high class brittish african guy but he will still be a desendant of africa...it's not Fleming's vision of Bond. He is a brittish white guy and his socio-political-economic world view reflect a white caucasion who serves the Queen of a country which was the superpower in the world during the 19th centry. Sorry, but race isn't superficial when you bring heritage into the discussion.I agree the white men you selected all are awful for Bond, btw.