205 replies to this topic

[WC]

If Bond is going to be anything other than white, it would be Japanese, NOT Black. YOLT was the closest Bond came to becoming another nationality. Remember Tiger Tanaka's words: "You must become Japanese". And he did.

[BlackFelix]

If I stand corrected than theres no shame in admitting that. However, point still stands that his charcter wouldn't be diminished if a Black actor played the part. As long as the movie dosen't overly display his color as black. Little known fact is the original Captain America charcter was a Black chacter that was later changed White and that hasn't stopped the popularity of the character. The writers never once changed the integrity or moral makeup of the charcter, just the color. And I still say however diminshed my argument may be, that the Felix role was once played by a black actor and felix has always been acepted universally as a white charcter. So there is definitly nothing wrong with a Black actor in the role.

[Frostyak]

If I stand corrected than theres no shame in admitting that. However, point still stands that his charcter wouldn't be diminished if a Black actor played the part. As long as the movie dosen't overly display his color as black. Little known fact is the original Captain America charcter was a Black chacter that was later changed White and that hasn't stopped the popularity of the character. The writers never once changed the integrity or moral makeup of the charcter, just the color. And I still say however diminshed my argument may be, that the Felix role was once played by a black actor and felix has always been acepted universally as a white charcter. So there is definitly nothing wrong with a Black actor in the role.

That is because Felix isn't Bond. Moreover people only accepted Felix being black in a movie that was not part of the regular series at the time. People also accepted Robin being a girl...in a special series that was not part of the regular Batman line.

My point is not that secret agents can't be black, or that a superhero can't be a woman. It is simply that when you change a fundamental characteristic of a leading character, you are changing not only that character, but people's memories.

What purpose do you believe that serves?

- Chris

[WC]

Now that Live and Let Die is mentioned, I can't see how Bond isn't considered specifically white. If he could be black, then he would've had no trouble going undercover in Mr Big (or Kananga's) operation in either the book or the film. He could've easily infiltrated that organisation and gained his trust. But that wasn't the case at all. Bond was pretty much a fish out of water in a different world of voodoo and (at least in the movie) the blaxploitation genre. The same really with Dr No actually. He could've blended in as one of the locals in Jamaica. No-one would've known he wasn't Quarrel's assistant or Quarrel Jr. But he obviously DIDN'T have that cover in reality. He was perceived as a non-black.

So, even aside from the line in LALD about 2 white men, while it may not specifically define Bond's whiteness, it is often defined in relation to, and by his interaction with other characters.

Edited by Welshcat, 21 September 2005 - 06:41 PM.

[Bon-san]

It seems that most of the opposition to the notion of a black James Bond is based on the idea that:

Fleming made Bond white. Whiteness is essential to the character. One cannot change the whiteness or Bond as a character is so fundamentally changed as to be unacceptable.

In contrast, spynovelfan has articulated quite a number of aspects of Bond

[Frostyak]

For me it still comes down to this...Where is the white John Shaft?

Bond being anything but white is like Bond being short and fat. If you were to cease production of the books and movies, stop showing them on TV and stop making video games, then in a hundred years you may be able to market Bond as such. There is nothing preventing Bond being black exept for the overall consensus that he is a tall white male. Ask nearly anyone on this planet to describe James Bond, and whether or not they have seen a movie they could probably tell you that he is a white Englishman. He is not bald, nor fat. He does not carry a sword, he carries a gun. He does not wear a cape, he wears a suit. These are the characteristics of James Bond as decided by the author.

- Chris

[spynovelfan]

For me it still comes down to this...Where is the white John Shaft?

For me it comes down to this... this thread will go on forever with no resolution, especially if new people keep joining it and, without reading the thread, simply make the same points that have already been argued back and forth in previous pages. Re Shaft:

"But Fleming never created a character who wore Italian-made off-the-peg suits and didn't smoke, either, did he? The character has been changed over the years, in various ways. The point about any change is: does it fundamentally alter the character? In the case of skin colour, because it's such a visible change, the knee-jerk reaction is 'Yes! Of course changing his colour makes a difference to the character!' But does it? *How*? Instead of endless parroting that Shaft is black so Bond must be white, try and think why it's important for Shaft to be black - his outlook on life, his history, where he grew up, the language he uses, none of which would be plausible if acted by a white actor - and then ask how the same applies to James Bond. I contend that making Bond wear Brioni alters the character more than casting a black actor would have to.
Convince me otherwise, with *arguments that are reasoned* and then I will sign on the line that is dotted."

I wrote that on page 2 of this thread. Read the thread and you'll see that some people did come up with reasons for it, and that the argument moved on beyond 'Where's the white Shaft, Bond's white he's always white, LISTEN TO ME HE'S WHITE I HAVE NO OTHER POINT AND I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU'.

Yeah?

You might also discover the rationale behind the person who started the thread, and discover that his views about human nature were, dash it, right in many ways. Because it is a knee-jerk reaction, and you haven't bothered to read or think beyond it.

Read the thread read the thread read the thread.

Then see if you have anything to say.

[Frostyak]

I have read the thread and my point remains. The initial post pretty well ended with "I think it's high time for a black Bond.".

But why? What end would it serve? I agree that many arguments may be fueled by elements that would need to be discussed not here, but in a politically oriented forum. But it was started here, so within the confines of a James Bond related message board, I shall argue. And if that means making analogies to other fictitious characters then I shall do so. You argue that there cannot be a white Shaft due to his background, origin, history, etc. But for whom can there not be a white portrayal of John Shaft? You? America's youth? I think if you really look at that, then you will realize that for the same reason, a Black Bond will not work.

- Chris

[spynovelfan]

I have read the thread and my point remains.  The initial post pretty well ended with "I think it's high time for a black Bond.".

Nice post, but this is simply implausible. It would have taken you a week.

Your post on Shaft didn't acknowledge that that issue has come up and been raised oh, about 12 times in this thread. You still haven't answered the questions I asked about it in my last post, either, but simply played Answer a Question with a Question. If you do read the thread, you'll have seen that I wasted about 398 hours in this thread already. So,um... not inclined to get into it again. I've made my points. Several times already.

[hartley_bond]

While I'm violently against choosing an actor just because they're black, I've always thought Adrian Lester gave off the Bond vibe perfectly.

[Donovan Mayne-Nicholls]

For me it still comes down to this...Where is the white John Shaft?

For me it comes down to this... this thread will go on forever with no resolution, especially if new people keep joining it and, without reading the thread, simply make the same points that have already been argued back and forth in previous pages. Re Shaft:

"But Fleming never created a character who wore Italian-made off-the-peg suits and didn't smoke, either, did he? The character has been changed over the years, in various ways. The point about any change is: does it fundamentally alter the character? In the case of skin colour, because it's such a visible change, the knee-jerk reaction is 'Yes! Of course changing his colour makes a difference to the character!' But does it? *How*? Instead of endless parroting that Shaft is black so Bond must be white, try and think why it's important for Shaft to be black - his outlook on life, his history, where he grew up, the language he uses, none of which would be plausible if acted by a white actor - and then ask how the same applies to James Bond. I contend that making Bond wear Brioni alters the character more than casting a black actor would have to.
Convince me otherwise, with *arguments that are reasoned* and then I will sign on the line that is dotted."

I wrote that on page 2 of this thread. Read the thread and you'll see that some people did come up with reasons for it, and that the argument moved on beyond 'Where's the white Shaft, Bond's white he's always white, LISTEN TO ME HE'S WHITE I HAVE NO OTHER POINT AND I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU'.

Yeah?

You might also discover the rationale behind the person who started the thread, and discover that his views about human nature were, dash it, right in many ways. Because it is a knee-jerk reaction, and you haven't bothered to read or think beyond it.

Read the thread read the thread read the thread.

Then see if you have anything to say.

It was rumoured after LTK that EON were considering the "brilliant" idea of having all four actors appear in the following movie and explain something along the lines that James Bond has always been an alias given to diferent star agents through the years. Thankfully, that rumour was either a rumour or else never came to fruition.
Changes such as Bond wearing Brioni suits are merely cosmetical. However, in spite of the logistics of having to continue a series with different actors who may or may not look like very similar, the choice of these actors has always repected a visual archetype that makes the average fan accept that yes, maybe this could be the same character than in the previous movie. When you break from that archetype: make Bond black, bold, short, blonde, etc., you break that illusion. Be certain that if the powers that be were to treat these threads as more than intellectual discussion, such a movie'd create a lot of initial talk but would end up killing the franchise for good. Apart from some people who think changing landmark characters' ethnicity (please, people don't come here comparing Bond to Captain Americas and Harvey Dents, we're talking mayor league!) is a sign of not being racist, the average audience, fans or not, would avoid it like the plague.
A similar thing happened with the Pink Panther series (MGM is so desperate they're still trying to resurrect the corpse). They tried Clouseau w/o Sellers and it bombed, so they went back to Sellers. After he died and they couldn't bring him back for more they were still so scared after Alan Arkin they decided to create a different protagonist character rather than hire another actor for the role. In essence they didn't change the character: it still was a half-wit detective screwing things up while others saved the day for him but with a different name, a different nationality (ethnical stereotype) it became different enough for people to be unable to embrace it and the series died.
I stand by my previous post: if you want to change something is because you really don't like it that much to start with. Just by browsing through this thread I find clues as to how little people know about the character: Bond did smoke in Fleming's stories, he had blue eyes and was white!

[trs007]

Yes, agreed! Bond was a caucasian and that is who is to portray Bond. What next, having a caucasian suggested to play Malcolm X or Martin Luther King???

[doublenoughtspy]

Ah, the thread that never dies.

Black Felix, you are ret-conning comic history. Your "Little known fact" about Captain America being originally black is a RECENT attempt by the current copyright holders to have an alternate take on stories written in the 1940s. Neither Joe Simon nor Jack Kirby created a black Captain America.

Spynovelfan, I am not sure why you say Bond's clothing and smoking is 27 times more important than his ethnicity.

I don't recall Bond's tailoring in the Brosnan films being brought up anywhere in the films themselves.

Can you honestly say that a percentage of the cinema audience can tell that there are any significant differences between Connery's dress clothing and Brosnan's?

[spynovelfan]

Spynovelfan, I am not sure why you say Bond's clothing and smoking is 27 times more important than his ethnicity.

I don't recall Bond's tailoring in the Brosnan films being brought up anywhere in the films themselves.

Can you honestly say that a percentage of the cinema audience can tell that there are any significant differences between Connery's dress clothing and Brosnan's?

No, I can't. But what I was saying was that clothing and smoking are more important to Fleming's character than his colour. Ie, to the character not the audience. Obviously, if you change his tailor, very few people in the audience will notice, and if you change hs colour everyone will. But from the start I've argued that this would be a disastrous proposition commercially (something Donovan Mayne-Nicholls would know if he read my comments, rather than skimmed them), and I've never advocated actually doing this. I was simply asking a hypothetical, because people get so stressed about this issue, and the hypothetical was 'In what way is Bond's colour important to the character'. I'll admit that it varies. Clearly, in Fleming's LIVE AND LET DIE, it's very important. It's not important at all in most of Fleming's books, though. It's who he is, and who he had to be at that time, but if we're accepting that the film-makers can change things that are very important to Bond's character, like his sexism and, to a lesser extent, smoking and so on, then why not this?

I don't advodate it happening. I was simply trying to get people to look at the issue in a different way.

Needless to say, it didn't work.

I'd rather you answered my post in the thread about fan fiction, though. I'm rather tired of this particular topic, and it's not going anywhere, repeatedly.

[freemo]

I see no reason for a black Bond. Conversly, if Bond had always been black, I would see no reason for a white Bond.

If, at some point, they're looking for a new Bond and the standout candidate happened to be black, then sure, sign him up, but I need a better reason than "it's high time".

And as for the arguement that "they've already made changes to the character", well, I didn't particular like those changes, so there you go. Just because somethings been done before doesn't make it right.

But what I was saying was that clothing and smoking are more important to Fleming's character than his colour.

Agreed.

[tbp82]

For all the Colin Salmon as Bond fans out there we have already had him as Robinson so if they wanted to go that route why not just make a MI6 movie with him playing Robinson as the main character?

[spynovelfan]

For all the Colin Salmon as Bond fans out there we have already had him as Robinson so if they wanted to go that route why not just make a MI6 movie with him playing Robinson as the main character?

...Has already been suggested 3,217 times in this thread.

[doublenoughtspy]

spynovelfan,

I understand you don't want a black Bond. But I do have a problem when people think that his clothing and his smoking habit is more important than his race.

So, when Bond is naked and not smoking - he isn't Bond to you then?

I'm not clear on how importance is judged.

Do we go by the frequency it is mentioned in the novels - and therefore assign importance to it that way?

I know that you dislike what Gardner did with Bond & cigarettes - is it because of the self distructive nature of smoking or ?

[spynovelfan]

Doublenoughtspy,

Why is smoking important to Fleming's character? It occupies a great deal of his time. He smokes *70 cigarettes a day*. His choice of cigarettes - handmade from a specıalıst shop in London - says a great deal about his character, and shows that it is important to him. It speaks of a refined taste - but also of someone who is a 'man's man'. Imagine the smell that surrounds someone who smokes 70 cigarettes a day. In the novels, Bond sometimes struggles to quit. It's a leitmotif of the character, just as his lean physique, comma of hair and cruel look are, his love of scrambled eggs and Sea Island cotton. All are given more emphasis and discussion and thought by Fleming than the colour of Bond's skin.

In the opening of THUNDERBALL, we learn what Bond's lifestyle is doing to him. Bond is a highly efficient secret agent, but his lifestyle choices, even in that era, were seen to be unhealthy and possibly affecting his performance. Again, that says something about him - while he may technically be a little less healthy than other agents, or even double O agents, we know that Bond can still do the job better. It's that extra damn-it-all-to-hell element. The clothes are important in that they establish a fussiness over the finer points in life, and they establish that he lives *stylishly*. In the highest possible style - the precise brand of a product in Fleming is *important*. He chose them very carefully. Bond is a snob and a hedonist, and both are integral elements of his character - elements that are shown to the reader through things like his smoking habit and his taste in clothes. This is a man who gets the most out of life, takes what he wants, what he sees as the very best and the most enjoyable despite the consequences; a man who defies death on a regular basis and yet contributes to his own early demise knowingly and gladly - a man who will not waste his days in trying to prolong them; an old-fashioned man who will not bow to trends but who will make his own way, despite what his doctors, M's latest fad or Q Branch tell him. All this is James Bond, and it is much more importantly James Bond than the incident in LIVE AND LET DIE where Mr Big refers to him and Leiter as 'two white men'.

Have I convinced you yet?

And perhaps you could explain to me how his colour is important to his character?

[Felix_Leiter]

Didn't P.Diddy say something on 'Conan O'Brien' once about creating a black 'james bond'-type character?

[00Twelve]

*Rolls eyes at thread*

[Jim]

This seems a little redundant now. (Not commenting on whether it always was). OK folks, democracy time, shall we close it?

[00Twelve]

Yes, please. Oy.

[Mona Lovesit]

This seems a little redundant now. (Not commenting on whether it always was). OK folks, democracy time, shall we close it?

Yeah, we should concentrate on the "Black Hair Vs Blonde" issue instead.

[killkenny kid]

Daneil Craig is James Bond. Can we put this to bed?

[Pam Bouvier]

You're right, it's been settled for now. I must say, though, asfleming wrote Bond as a clearly white European, it seems to me that we either:
1. Replace Bond as some point and 007 BECOMES another person using the 007 number.
2. Create another double 0