28 replies to this topic

[Tarl_Cabot]

I rented DAD last night so my roomate could see it. I only saw it once and I hated it(I usually see a Bond film at least a few times) but I thought a second look might change my mind. In fact,I found more reasons to trash it(Maddonna's song is the least of my problems with DAD).Asside from bad CGI non-stunts,The plot has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese:

Assuming it were even theoretically possible,Why would Moon change himself into the westerner Gustav Graves? Everyone thinks he's dead so There's no need to do that; in percieved death he gains liberty.He seems to hate westerners too so why become one? If he wants anominity from the law why become a CELEBRITY and still pursue terrorist/criminal plots? Makes no sense but to make a pathetic attempt to add a TWIST.What were the writers thinking? That is too cheesy, even for a Roger Moore era Bond film.Why would Zao also need a makeover? The NKs let him go so he's at no risk really to be captured if he stays in N Korea.

How was Moon/Graves able to escape NK, discover Diamonds in Iceland, get a genetic makeover and become an English aristocrat and win a knighthood in just 14 months! MI6 has no idea he just appeared out of nowhere? He has no history. Isn't that just a little bit curious? Isn't MI6 supposed to have INTELLIGENCE on people, especially presumed U.K. citizens? How did Neal Purvis and Robert Wade get this monstrocity of a script passed MGM? Why are these films so poorly written? Why don't they hire people who know how to weave a coherent plot?

Why does Graves have the ice palace melted? Why not just kill Jinx and save some $$ invested? I assume that place cost billions of dollars. Why can't Bond villians have understandable motivations and purposeful intentions, even if they are criminal?

Why is Pierce Brosnan continuing? It's obvious he's never going to get a great film.He's done a good job but he's starting to look too old for this ****! He said he'd retire after four films. I think it's time for a change.The whole franchise needs an overhaul...

My roomate is a diehard Bond fan and he agreed with me that DAD is the worst Bond film in the entire series. I'm not gonna compare this to XXX or MI1 and 2-those films are terrible but these aren't much better.That is tragic...

[JimmyBond]

Instead of asking a simple queston, you instead ranted about how you hate the film. I won't dignify that with a response. If you did'nt like the flim fine, but to rant on and on about it endlessly while giving the pretense of asking a question is inane, no one who would even try to answer that question would want to read through all that (I wish I had'nt).

[brendan007]

Originally posted by Tarl_Cabot
Why does Graves have the ice palace melted? Why not just kill Jinx and save some $$ invested? I assume that place cost billions of dollars. Why can't Bond villians have understandable motivations and purposeful intentions, even if they are criminal?

Because its a Bond movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you not been paying attention for the previous 19 films? Bond villians plan elaborate deaths for the heroes, if your looking for simple shooting deaths go watch die hard or lethal weapon.

[marktmurphy]

And it would melt anyway. Made of ice you see. Ice-Palace. Clue's in the name.

[mkkbb]

And both Graves and Zao have genetic treatment so they can move around outside North Korea without attracting attention. Pretty obvious really.

[Mr.Rijnveld]

"Isn't MI6 supposed to have INTELLIGENCE on people, especially presumed U.K. citizens?"

The thing is: Graves wasn't English, he came out of Argentine.

[homerjbond]

I always thought Gustav Graves was a real person, who became a multi-billionaire diamond guru, who gave to charity, then was kidnapped by Moon, killed, and have Moon take over his identity.

Does that hold water?

[Mr.Rijnveld]

IMO it does. Never thought of it that way. On the other hand when Graves tells Bond in Iceland who he really is he mentions to Bond that he modelled Graves after Bond himself. So I can't totally explain it.

[homerjbond]

Yes, but I think Graves meant he modeled his behavior and fascial expression (not look) after Bond...personally, he didn't do a good job of it.

[Tarl_Cabot]

I'm sorry if it was a rant but I saw some huge holes in the plot and wondered how people who loved the film would process it all.I also wanted to bring up flaws that aren't "CGI" related.I know "it's
a Bond film" but usually these films offer us a chance to suspend our disbelief, just a little.Nothing about this film works for me.:mad:

The treatment: It's obvious they got them to move around anomonously outside of NK-fair enough but they still remain involved in terrorist scemes;If you're trying to not get caught you stay out of trouble, right?Instead, they bring huge attention to themselves. What's the point of getting the makeover if as soon as you're done you unleash a satilite laser weapon that you've already introduced to the public? Makes no sense.

Graves: MI6 assigned Frost to investigate him; she obviously did not volunteer any info but if they were that interested they should have some background info on him, even if he was from Argentina...

Anyway,it's in the can. Bring on Bond 21...

[SPECTRE No. 7]

I think that the idea behing Gustav being a prominent figure is so that no one questions his large satellite. By being a supposedly public philanthropist, who will use his satellite for good, that puts him above the law. The writers made Gustav famous do-gooder so that it would explain why NASA (or the like) hadnt questioned the satellite

[Jamie007]

Originally posted by brendan007


Because its a Bond movie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you not been paying attention for the previous 19 films? Bond villians plan elaborate deaths for the heroes, if your looking for simple shooting deaths go watch die hard or lethal weapon.

Exactly. You're into the wrong movie series if things like plot holes and unrealistic villains bother you.
Sure Graves was over the top and unrealistic, but any more so then someone who wants to destroy all mankind and build a city in space? Or a man who can bite through metal bars with his steel teeth?

Originally posted by homerjbond
I always thought Gustav Graves was a real person, who became a multi-billionaire diamond guru, who gave to charity, then was kidnapped by Moon, killed, and have Moon take over his identity.

Does that hold water?

Wow, I've never thought of that before. Puts a new spin on things, and answers some questions (like how Gustav could have a plausible past).

[Jriv71]

I think Tarl_Cabot's right. That song did suck.

[Jriv71]

Actually, I do wish that the next villain would find a better way of pulling the old, "I won't kill you, I'll let my laser/ice/scorpion/time-warp/bla-bla/vice-grip machine do it, while I leave you unsupervised for a while."

But, that is very Bond, though. That leaves Bond to figure a clever way out, and that's the fun part.

[israeljamesbond]

Ok.. first of all the CGI in DAD was great compared to many movies.. even Star Wars. Second there were stunts! Look at the sword fight.. Zao's jump from the window.. Bond fighting over the overcraft with Moon(even though some of it was made with the blue/green screen element) the sword fight between jinx and miranda etc etc. Madonna's song didnt match the other 19 movies but it worked alright with this movie.. I am not saying it is good nor great but what I am saying is.. what other song could work with this movie?

Now about the plot holes you mention...

1) Why would Moon change himself into the westerner Gustav Graves?
Graves might have been rich already, so Moon decided to kill him, change himself with the DNA therapy and voila... easy money for his Icarus Satellite and to dominate both koreas! Or maybe he just was from those people Doctor Alvarez mentions in his clinic to Jinx 'People that wont be missed'[Killing someone unimportant so that you can have that person's appearance, in this case my theory of Graves being rich is destroyed.. but hey! Moon has the diamonds from Bond!]

2) He seems to hate westerners too so why become one?
Talking about 'People that wont be missed'.. Gustav could have been the first option.. anyway he tells you how disgusting Gustav is! An by the way Gustav is from Argentina.. maybe a mix of English and Argentinian parents.

3)If he wants anominity from the law why become a CELEBRITY and still pursue terrorist/criminal plots?
Who says Gustav Graves was a celebrity? Remember Bond says 'From nothing to everything in NO TIME AT ALL.' that means Gustav rises not so much time before Bond escapes![Less than a year] So maybe he just lied about finding diamonds in Iceland and used that as an excuse to have the african Conflict Diamonds with no one having any suspicions about them. Bond says it in Cuba to Raoul! 'Theres some kind of mug in here. GG.' then Raoul says it is from the GG Corp. in Iceland and then Bond says again 'They are chemically identical to African Conflict Diamonds.. What an amazing coincidence!'. So there my theory of using the Iceland mine as an excuse comes true.

4)Why would Zao also need a makeover?
He probably wants to get rid of his damaged sparkling personality[or his expensive acne according to Jinx]. He probably just would have liked to follow what his boos did.. or maybe he just wants to hide from Bond! Remember he knows bond will go after him right when they are traded.. so maybe he just wants to hide his true self to have some fun with Bond just like GG did. Remember GG's line 'Watching you flailing around in your ignorance. Granting you life day by day, just to see if you get wise. Its been fun you know?' then Bond says 'Th fun is about to come to a dead End.'

5) How was Moon/Graves able to escape NK, discover Diamonds in Iceland, get a genetic makeover and become an English aristocrat and win a knighthood in just 14 months!
Easy... just like Saddam and Mini-Bin escaped from their countries for the invasions! lol. Even easier when you think no one was looking for him! ;-D. He didnt discover Diamonds in Iceland.. like I said that is his excuse. Genetic makeover maybe is not posible yet but it might be someday and it wont take more the some weeks or months for sure. For the aristocrat and knighted stuff... Money buys everything! ;-D

6) MI6 has no idea he just appeared out of nowhere?
That is exactly why M gives Bond his license to kill back.. to investigate weird and suspicious Graves!

7) Isn't MI6 supposed to have INTELLIGENCE on people, especially presumed U.K. citizens?
Yes of course.. BUT if you remember back in TND, MI6 has some fear investigatin politically connected men.. this means Elliot Carver, the mediamogul and Gustav Graves, the King of Diamonds. So they just send bond to allow them to know that.. even M tells Bond 'We need to go carefully, Graves is politically connected' plus M doesnt tell her superiors if she is investigating any of those politically connected men because theyll never approve it.. remember from TND 'I didn't want to discuss it in front of the admiral, but that mysterious signal came from one of Elliot Carver's satellites.'

8) Why does Graves have the ice palace melted? Why not just kill Jinx and save some $$ invested?
The Ice Palace will melt eventually, also he just wanted to destroy any evidence against him.. plus he maybe doesnt care anout money and he wanted an amusing death for Jinx!

9) Why is Pierce Brosnan continuing?
All the Brosnan films are great! Goldeneye, Tomorrow Never Dies, The World is Not Enough, DAD... my #1 is TND. the only movie from another bond that could match any of the 4 movies from Mr. Brosnan is Goldfinger. About him getting old.. uhh I dont think it matters. He looks Bondish plus bond isnt a young kid. I personally think Brosnan should continue until he has 8 movies.. we dont need a new Bond every 4 films! Also I dont think there is any good replacement for Pierce Brosnan! And please dont start posting names! By the way! How can you call Bond movies *****?! You better get out of these forums because bond is not something like that at all! Plus that means you simply hate Bond.

10) My roomate is a diehard Bond fan and he agreed with me that DAD is the worst Bond film in the entire series. I'm not gonna compare this to XXX or MI1 and 2-those films are terrible but these aren't much better.That is tragic...
DAD is one of the best for me, no other movie has such great action sequences, such great music and such a great car! Plus bond's real style is shown on this movie(Smokes, Lonely, Dies for his country, etc)
Also Like you said xXx and Mission Impossible[1 and 2] are terrible movies and this is a billion times better! Bond rules and always will!

[israeljamesbond]

By the way I am sorry for the spelling errors! I tried to type fast and didnt had time to recheck! If something is messed up just ask me!

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by homerjbond
I always thought Gustav Graves was a real person, who became a multi-billionaire diamond guru, who gave to charity, then was kidnapped by Moon, killed, and have Moon take over his identity.

Does that hold water?

Makes much more sense. Slipping a couple of lines into the script to that effect would have tidied up a lot of loose ends. Or how about a scene where Bond goes snooping around the diamond mine and stumbles across the remains of the real Gustav Graves?

[White Tuxedo]

About how Moon got the diamonds, they were the diamonds in the exchange in the beginning. He was trading weapons for conflict diamonds, and Graves' diamonds are identical to conflict diamonds because they ARE conflict diamonds. They are the same diamonds from the beginning. Atleast that's what I've always thought.

Or atleats some of Graves' diamonds are the same ones. The diamond mine is fake, remember?

[Tarl_Cabot]

"Ok.. first of all the CGI in DAD was great compared to many movies.. even Star Wars."-IsraelJamesBond

Bond is not Star Wars. CGI can be used to enhanced scenes and hide safety harnesses, cables/wires..etc.but to totally replace a stuntan/actor is a mistake. The new Star Wars films suck now because Lucas is more engaged in using CGI effects than telling a story or writing dialogue that doesn't make you cringe. <"A special effect without a story is pretty boring"-George Lucas >I agree. I hated Yoda in AOTC because he wasn't a three dimensional physical character(CGI Yoda in fight scene is fine). A puppet is more convincing..Anyway that's Star Wars. Bond should not use CGI as a crutch.But my thread was about DAD flaws not including the CGI stunt that mostly everyone here seems to unite in dissapproval.

I'll give you credit for a defense of DAD Johnny Cochran would be proud of! I still think it's a terribly flawed script that had enormous potential (Bond's capture was fresh). I hope they get better execution of ideas and plot devices the next time around. I rip on DAD because I'm a fan and want so much more from these films.Passionate fans are always the toughest critics.

[DLibrasnow]

Originally posted by Tarl_Cabot
I rented DAD last night so my roomate could see it. I only saw it once and I hated it(I usually see a Bond film at least a few times) but I thought a second look might change my mind. In fact,I found more reasons to trash it(Maddonna's song is the least of my problems with DAD).Asside from bad CGI non-stunts,The plot has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese:

Assuming it were even theoretically possible,Why would Moon change himself into the westerner Gustav Graves? Everyone thinks he's dead so There's no need to do that; in percieved death he gains liberty.He seems to hate westerners too so why become one? If he wants anominity from the law why become a CELEBRITY and still pursue terrorist/criminal plots? Makes no sense but to make a pathetic attempt to add a TWIST.What were the writers thinking? That is too cheesy, even for a Roger Moore era Bond film.Why would Zao also need a makeover? The NKs let him go so he's at no risk really to be captured if he stays in N Korea.

How was Moon/Graves able to escape NK, discover Diamonds in Iceland, get a genetic makeover and become an English aristocrat and win a knighthood in just 14 months! MI6 has no idea he just appeared out of nowhere? He has no history. Isn't that just a little bit curious? Isn't MI6 supposed to have INTELLIGENCE on people, especially presumed U.K. citizens? How did Neal Purvis and Robert Wade get this monstrocity of a  script passed MGM? Why are these films so poorly written? Why don't they hire people who know how to weave a coherent plot?

Why does Graves have the ice palace melted? Why not just kill Jinx and save some $$ invested? I assume that place cost billions of dollars. Why can't Bond villians have understandable motivations and purposeful intentions, even if they are criminal?  

Why is Pierce Brosnan continuing? It's obvious he's never going to get a great film.He's done a good job but he's starting to look too old for this ****! He said he'd retire after four films. I think it's time for a change.The whole franchise needs an overhaul...

My roomate is a diehard Bond fan and he agreed with me that DAD is the worst Bond film in the entire series. I'm not gonna compare this to XXX or MI1 and 2-those films are terrible but these aren't much better.That is tragic...

The small blessing of DAD is that it wasn't an abomination on the scale that TWINE was.

[Jazzy Bond]

Tarl Calbot, You seem to be a great fan of the Bond series like we all are, but don't get too anal with the plot dude! The explanation of GG being Moon works for me! The writers and directors can't spell every little thing out or the movie will be 3 hours plus! Obviously Moon survived the crash! When I saw it with friends they were totally surprised when GG started speaking Korean! the genetic therapy took 3-4 months to get over, in the novelization (hate to mention this to all of you guys thinking there was a real GG) Moon/Graves goes to Argentina and befriends a diamond smuggling guy that Moon had known through his trades. He doesn't let on that he's Moon, this individual befriends Graves and says that he doesn't have many friends and if he were to die he would leave a diamond mine he has to Graves. Graves kills him and takes over the mine. In the movie they can't get into all of this for time purposes and I'm happy they didn't, it doesn't matter. He has diamonds from th beginning of the movie. Don't forget Bod was sent to investigate Moon for just this type of activity, Moon may have several of cosignments of diamonds just like the one Bond brought! As far as him being famous quickly, being in the U.S. I will tell you it doesn't take long to be famous. We have these stupid reality shows, these folks will be on these programs for a month or two and come out of them as America's sweethearts. My point is if you have money looks and you do outrageous stunts you will get famous and quickly. don't forget the reporter who asks Graves about his elaborate stunts and publicity stunts. It also stated that Graves gave half of his "fortune" to charity. That could be a hell of a lot. I mean Sean Connery is a great guy but they made him a knight for being an actor primarily and representing the U.K. in a dignified manner. I mean is it that hard to believe that money can't buy you a knighthood if it goes to a good cause? The fact that Graves is in the public eye is based on the novel Moonraker which I'm sure you've read. Right? The villain Hugo Drax is planning the first rocket for England. He really is a Natzi, can't remember his real name but he wants to bomb England! So the idea of a well known villain supposedly doing something good for humanity and in essence doing quite the opposite is straight from Fleming, the writers even stated this in the DVD! So blame Fleming if you want to rant about that plot twist. i always thought zao was changing to get rid of the diamonds and to then join his boss in iceland. the diamonds around his neck were his payment to the clinic for the procedure. They came from GG so he was still in contact with him and was going to hook up with him after his surgery. again Tarl, don't hate DAD, I mean look at all of the real Bondian monents! The Blades club scenes th Cuba sequences with Raul the holdover and the trade on the bridge. the Hong Kong scenes I mean great stuff, Right? Give it another shot and just let escapism take over!!

[ray t]

sour grapes, old boy!

the only implausable thing was the 14 months from nothing to knighthood...but NOT IMPOSSIBLE.

also this is James Bond...even Dr No had a chance to kill 007 on the spot...why didnt he, old boy?

[Genrewriter]

Plot works great for me. If I want a believable, realistic spy thriller I can always watch The Whistle Blower with Michael Caine.

[Tarl_Cabot]

"Tarl Calbot, You seem to be a great fan of the Bond series like we all are, but don't get too anal with the plot dude!"

Sorry but this film is a logistical disaster. It doesn't work at all. I don't care "if it's a James Bond film"! I want this great series to be made for adults again.If I want a banal action movie I'll go watch Bad Boys II or 'Too Fast too Furious'.These films can and should be great but they aren't. They are terrible! Other recent thrillers are so much better than Bond movies. The series is a @#$%^&* joke now.

The Bourne Identity is better than DAD and TWINE.
Proof of Life is better
The Sum of all Fears (gulp) is better

[Jazzy Bond]

Tarl Calbot, looks like you are looking for FRWL type of Bond movie. The producers are in a TSWLM, YOLT phase right now! I for one love all of the phases of Bond movies! That in my opinion is what puts this series so far above the films you mentioned! Getting off track for a sec. I loved Bourne Identity and Proof of life but to compare them to a Bond movie is like comparing apples and oranges. It's like comparing T-3 to Alien for ex. Both are science fiction but they are nothing alike. One takes place on Earth with humanoids and one takes place in space with creatures. Get my point, even if it is clouded, LOL! Anyway, I'm saddened by your comments. You do seem to be a great fan of the series. But you seem to like more realistic stories. I can understand that. But enjoy DAD for it's good points like I mentioned before (Blades club, handover, Hong Kong, Cuba) don't dwell on the negatives. I think the responders of your topic, including myself have given approriate answers to your questions. But if you can't get over DAD being bad than like I said just wait the producers go in cycles and the FYEO, TLD types are probably right around the corner!

[Tarl_Cabot]

"I'm saddened by your comments."

No need to be. It's just a movie, one I happen to dislike but in the end just a movie.DAD was such a bummer because it had such potential in the first half. It's a really schitzophrenic film. It also annoyed me that I had to wait an extra year for such a dud!


I hope we get a down to earth story next time. I'm a huge fan of FRWL.I also loved The Living Daylights. That film was fresh and entertaining. The story was smart and believable.Bond was a human being and a secret agent! The stunts were great.The locations were beautifully shot, the score was magnificant.Brosnan really lost out as that would have easily been his best film but I think the right actor at the time got the job (Brosnan was too young then).Anyway, I hope we get a great film. I think Brosnan deserves to go out on a high note.

[Icebreaker]

Graves didnt find the diamonds in Iceland...remember they are African Conflict diamonds, he uses that fake mine in Iceland as a front. The diamonds he has are all from African, but in order to maintain that he is a self made billionare, he came up with the phony claim of finding diamonds in Iceland. As for him having no history and such...Im sure its just plot-holes like you said...I just wanted to point out that there WAS an answer for this particular question





~ICeBReaKeR

[Tarl_Cabot]

Thank you and well done.I've only seen it twice, once in November and in June on Video. I still think it's a very poorly concieved screenplay.I'm over it...The good news is history says the series will make a very different type of film, like FYEO after MR.Bring on Bond 21!

[freemo]

Originally posted by homerjbond
I always thought Gustav Graves was a real person, who became a multi-billionaire diamond guru, who gave to charity, then was kidnapped by Moon, killed, and have Moon take over his identity.

Does that hold water?

Interesting theory, although a little Diamonds Are Foreverish. It doesn't look like there was a real GG though. I was thinking along the lines that Col. Moon was already planning, setting the groundwork to disappear and become "Gustav Graves", and that it was really luck on his part that Bond gave him the perfect oppurtunity to fake his death.