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Rumor is True: Cubby said that Fleming wanted Roger as 007..first


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#1 4 Ur Eyez Only

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Posted 22 May 2003 - 08:00 PM

John Glen's Book: "For my eyes only"

Chapter 10 (page 156)

"Cubby told me (John Glen) that Fleming had always seen Roger Moore as James Bond and took a while to be won over by Sean Connery. Fleming's Bond was something of an upper crust figure, a former public schoolboy with a taste for the finer things in life. Sean Connery had enjoyed incredible success in the role - partly because he introduced a rough element which co-existed with Fleming's characterisation - but Roger's interpertation was probably a little closer to what Fleming had in mind."

~ So the Living Daylights Special Edition Featurette on Fleming..and a bunch of these older ladies trying to spin Fleming's thoughts on Sean are all False..

I think I believe John Glen who have No axe to grind.. when he says that CUBBY told him Fleming's real feelings...

#2 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 04:02 AM

There has been NO better interpretation of Bond than Roger Moore delivered in For Your Eyes Only. Sean may have been first and he may have delivered a few less duds, but there's no escaping the facts: Moore's performance in FYEO cancels all of the cinematic semi-mistakes he may have made.

The guy is a bloody good actor - and it's time he was given his due.

#3 BONDFINESSE 007

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 04:32 AM

he should have been bond first, he was very good as bond, dont be dissing roger

#4 4 Ur Eyez Only

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 05:51 AM

Just to make sure..

"For MY eyes only" is the name of John Glenn's book..

Cubby's Statement to John was during the filiming of A View to a Kill in 1985..

#5 1q2w3e4r

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 05:52 AM

he also wanted David Niven and we know how that turned out...

#6 Dr.Carl Mortner

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 05:56 AM

"he should have been bond first, he was very good as bond, dont be dissing roger"

Bondfinesse - every post on this thread has been PRO-Roger. Who are you talking to?

#7 Blofeld's Cat

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 06:33 AM

Originally posted by 1q2w3e4r
he also wanted David Niven and we know how that turned out...

And don't forget that 2 years prior to that Niven starred in the so-so "Where The Spies Are" based on the James Leasor spy series of novels. So he wasn't doing too well in that department.

It's hard to say if he would have done a good job in Dr. No, but I'd say that his Bond character would have been played more debonaire and less ruthless.

Hmmm, reminds me of another Bond actor.


#8 BONDFINESSE 007

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Dr.Carl Mortner
"he should have been bond first, he was very good as bond, dont be dissing roger"

Bondfinesse - every post on this thread has been PRO-Roger. Who are you talking to?

so far it has been...........

#9 DLibrasnow

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 11:30 AM

[Roger is] a great man who helps raise money for children in the Third World as well as doing some great charity work for the Variety Club of Great Britain.
So don't worry Bondfinesse, the people who diss Roger only wish they had that kind of class. They are losers Bondfinesse, we know that and, more importantly, so do they!

#10 Mister Asterix

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 12:16 PM

Okay, I am not trying to dis Rog. Rog was great. And I do not doubt that Fleming liked Roger over Sean.

What I do doubt is that Roger was Fleming’s ‘choice’ for Bond. I am sure that Roger was one of Ian’s choices to play his spy, but why would we ever have heard about the other choices? It played no PR value for Cubby to say that Actor X was Fleming’s number one choice when Cubby had Roger Moore as his new Bond, and Cubby could easily use ‘Ian liked Roger better than Sean’ as a bit of positive PR. I am sure that Fleming liked a lot of people better than Connery, since he hated Sean at first.

If anyone has any more info that proves me wrong please post it, but I haven’t seen it yet.


#11 Kara Milovy

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 05:34 PM

I have read John Glen's book. It is a highly unreliable source. If we are to believe John Glen, Michael Wilson is Cubby's son-in-law, and there is a Berkeley University in California. Glen fudged facts and didn't check them; he wrote based on memories many years in the past and made no effort to verify.

#12 DLibrasnow

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Posted 23 May 2003 - 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Kara Milovy
I have read John Glen's book. It is a highly unreliable source. If we are to believe John Glen, Michael Wilson is Cubby's son-in-law, and there is a Berkeley University in California. Glen fudged facts and didn't check them; he wrote based on memories many years in the past and made no effort to verify.


But there is a Berkeley University, it's called the University of California at Berkeley..

#13 Dr Noah

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 02:34 PM

"And don't forget that 2 years prior to that Niven starred in the so-so "Where The Spies Are" based on the James Leasor spy series of novels. So he wasn't doing too well in that department."

Oh, I watched that movie the other month, very enjoyable, Niven was good as the amatuer spy.

I'm sure that if a Bond movie was made in the late '50s, say, Niven would have been perfect in the role (after all, he was a very good Sir James ten years later!).

#14 Mister Asterix

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 02:43 PM

Originally posted by DLibrasnow
But there is a Berkeley University, it's called the University of California at Berkeley..


Yes, but the point is Glen got the name wrong. There is no university named Berkley University.

#15 4 Ur Eyez Only

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Posted 24 May 2003 - 07:35 PM

For one thing.. IN John's Book.. this is just a very quick paragraph..NOT a full chapter ripping on sean..

he just said it in passing..

HOW can anyone compare making a minor mistake of the name of a School of the Kid of Cubby.. yes of course the guy Michael Wilson worked on Bond.. and was a major part..

* BUT WHO knows everyone's Bio/Resume off hand.. and saying the name of the school off isn't bad.. He was pretty close..

******* HOW does that compare to CUBBY saying TO John..directly!!! That Fleming told him.. He wanted Roger first.. and wasn't into Sean?

Face Facts.. This has been REPORTED in many places.. Fleming's feelings.. There has been a PUBLIC RELATIONS move.. for years with the owners of 007 NOW.. They want to rewrite history with what the REAL People who made the series felt.. CUBBY & FLEMING!

~I have seen they have made an effort to "spin" the past.. just listen to the actors who worked with sean..old interviews ..they give a feeling he was a complete moddy azzhole! NOW with the kids running everything..and these old people want to still be heard and seen with Bond.. they go with "the NEW spin".. for the dvd's (but stuff I have taped on cable specials in the past they say the 100% oppisite)

The whole Pierce "PR" is insane! As soon as he started they have tried to keep drilling it into your head ..that this guy is Sean Connery.. (that is a total INSULT to sean.. and US, that we are that dumb/stupid to believe your spin.. as the Producers.. that he is amazing.. BUt when we watch the pierce movies he is a complete joke)

Example: a few years ago Pierce started to pipe up about "problems" with the 007 movies.. and that he wanted MORE money & say... ALL OF A SUDDEN ..The 007 Kids/Producers.. started to put in the papers a "Smear Campain" just like they did with Timothy Dalton!

all of a sudden.. Pierce wasn't important.. and we didn't need him.. there was a BUNCH of small blurbs/articles.. on Pierce not being that great..

Pierce shut up.. and NOW they "Spin" it back to him being a Sean Connery GOD???

:)

Soooooo anything said by the Kids of Cubby means nothing..

and John Glen giving in passing THE TRUTH which is known by everyone.. Fleming's People said this in the PAST.. WE all know Fleming's Feelings on Sean.. not liking his ONE Rough Style of playing Bond.. There is and WAS more to the Character.. and Fleming THE CREATOR of the WHOLE ball of wax.. wanted and LIKED Roger.

#16 1q2w3e4r

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 03:27 AM

Actually Fleming didnt like Connery till he met him. He thought he was just going to be far to rough around the edges. But Young polished him up and Fleming took to him greatly and couldn't really see anyone else in the role. He even adjusted parts of Bond's background to tie him and Connery in more.

#17 Turn

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 04:16 AM

Unless he had seen him screen test for Bond first, my question is where would Fleming have seen Moore? Before that time, much of his work at the time was done on television in America and he was in some little-seen films. Not exactly David Niven-type of exposure.

#18 1q2w3e4r

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 09:45 AM

Fleming lived in the UK. Most likely saw him in The Saint television series. Or in one of those MGM films or which ever studio he used to be signed to as a contract player.

#19 4 Ur Eyez Only

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 04:38 PM

it does look like the bond people when casting wanted basically a unknown actor.. because Sean was pretty much unknown as well..

so Roger would make perfect sense as well.. unknown basically in the movies..

well lets say wasn't type cast yet.. or known for a major role...in movies

#20 Dr Noah

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 05:38 PM

To be honest, I suspect Fleming wouldn't have been happy with any one who played Bond, as, in Fleming's mind, Bond was himself and he was Bond..

#21 Kara Milovy

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 08:51 PM

Originally posted by DLibrasnow

But there is a Berkeley University, it's called the University of California at Berkeley..

That's exactly my point. He wrote about one of the largest, most famous universities in North America, and he got the name wrong. UC Berkeley is no more called "Berkeley University" than Rutgers is called "New Jersey University" or "New Brunswick University."

#22 DLibrasnow

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 09:14 PM

Originally posted by 4 Ur Eyez Only
it does look like the bond people when casting wanted basically a unknown actor.. because Sean was pretty much unknown as well..

so Roger would make perfect sense as well.. unknown basically in the movies..

well lets say wasn't type cast yet.. or known for a major role...in movies


Well the discussion is redundant because its even covered in one of the DVD documentaries...

#23 Kara Milovy

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 09:16 PM

Originally posted by 4 Ur Eyez Only
For one thing.. IN John's Book.. this is just a very quick paragraph..NOT a full chapter ripping on sean..

he just said it in passing..

HOW can anyone compare making a minor mistake of the name of a School of the Kid of Cubby.. yes of course the guy Michael Wilson worked on Bond.. and was a major part..


I am a writer by trade. The basics of writing a book include fact-checking, especially on minor things that you say in passing. The basics of research (i.e. finding out what happened!) is know your source. If your source gets facts wrong, then by definition he becomes an unreliable source. John Glen got numerous facts wrong. Don't tell others to "face facts" is you can't accept something this basic.

* BUT WHO knows everyone's Bio/Resume off hand.. and saying the name of the school off isn't bad.. He was pretty close..  

"Pretty close" is okay in conversation, not in print, and we are not talking about something really obscure or difficult to check. By "everyone's bio/resume" are you referring to Michael Wilson? Do you mean that it's minor and unimportant that Glen can't accurately state the relationship between two people with whom he worked closely on over a half-dozen films?

Somewhere around here I have a list of about 7 facts that I found in error in Glen's book -- and those were just things I happened to know! How many others got by me?

Here's a crazy paragraph typical of the book:

[b]Joe Don Baker...had appeared in Dick Donner's Lethal Weapon and the excellent BBC drama Edge of Darkness, but he came to Barbara [Broccoli]'s attention in David Lynch's offbeat series Twin Peaks. Brad Whitaker's co-conspirator General Pushkin was played by John Rhys Davies, who had been an Egyptian wide boy in a couple of the Indiana Jones films.


Facts:
1. Joe Don Baker was not in Lethal Weapon.
2. Joe Don Baker was not in Twin Peaks
3. Brad Whitaker and Gen. Pushkin were not co-conspirators in TLD, they were enemies.
4. John Rhys-Davies hyphenates his last name.
5. John Rhys-Davies did not appear in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, so that by the time that TLD was made, he had been in one Indiana Jones movie, not "a couple."

These are all basic, simple facts, most of which Glen should have known, and all of which Glen could have easily checked but didn't bother. He is completely wrong about Barbara Broccoli's casting decision in this paragraph, Yet we are expected to believe he accurately remembers Cubby's? I think not.

******* HOW does that compare to CUBBY saying TO John..directly!!! That Fleming told him.. He wanted Roger first.. and wasn't into Sean?


Glen doesn't remember what Cubby said directly, he just pieces together what he thinks he remembers without checking. If you know that he doesn't check his facts (and his book establishes that), then all you know is that Glen is reporting, from memory, a conversation that happened over 25 years ago. How can you believe its accuracy?

#24 DLibrasnow

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Posted 25 May 2003 - 11:48 PM

Like I said it's all academic because the fact that Fleming had wanted Roger Moore is covered in one of the DVD documentaries.

#25 4 Ur Eyez Only

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 12:49 AM

How do you research and "check" facts.. on a direct conversation with that person? where and how do you do that???

he had the conversation with cubby.. cubby told him this.. It was a One on One conversation..

here's the quote in the book again:
"Cubby told me (John Glen) that Fleming had always seen Roger Moore as James Bond and took a while to be won over by Sean Connery...."

Cubby TOLD ME..

How does anyone research what he told John? He didn't write it in the book as FACT.. he wrote it as "He TOLD me"..

John is not the only one to have this type of conersation with Cubby.. there has been many other people over the years.. saying the same exact thing.

#26 DLibrasnow

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 03:55 PM

Originally posted by 4 Ur Eyez Only


John is not the only one to have this type of conersation with Cubby.. there has been many other people over the years.. saying the same exact thing.


Hey chill....everyone knows its true that Fleming had always wanted Roger Moore as Bond and took awhile to be won over by Sean Connery. No one is disputing that fact because its common knowledge amongst the Bond fan community.

#27 Kara Milovy

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 04:17 PM

First of all, let's acknowledge that outside sources have confirmed this particular fact. The topic as to whether the Moore rumor is true is essentially closed, we have multiple sources. But I want to continue to answer the other issue raised:

Originally posted by 4 Ur Eyez Only
How do you research and "check" facts.. on a direct conversation with that person? where and how do you do that???  


Understanding how to research and how to check facts is an essential skill. If we don't have this skill, it impairs even our ability to read the newspaper. Every day, we are bombarded with people who tell us things, or we read things in print or on the 'net, or we see it on TV. How do we determine if it is true? It is a really important question to ask. Snopes.com is chock-full of utterly false rumors that reasonable people believe. Why? Because the source said that they heard it in direct conversation, or that someone told them, or that it happened to a friend, blah blah blah. How do you straighten out such a mess?

Some basic methods:

1) Check with external sources. How many people say it is true, and does anyone say it is false? Are there witnesses to the conversation? External sources confirm that the Moore rumor is true.

2) Check with documented facts. Were all the people in the same place at the same time? Are other proven facts in agreement with this one? For instance, in that persistent rumor about a bill before Congress to tax the Internet, anyone can check the Congressional Record and find it is false.

3) Check the reliability of your source. In court (or on court dramas on TV), you often hear about "discrediting the witness." What this means is, if you can demonstrate that a source has been unreliable about other things, it makes it unreasonable to believe the source about the issue in question. This was my point about John Glen. External sources confirmed this particular information, but by himself, Glen is not a reliable source. He says that Barbara Broccoli first saw Joe Don Baker in Twin Peaks. Documented facts prove that Baker wasn't in Twin Peaks. If he got this conversation wrong, it sheds doubt on reportage about other conversations.

Again, my point is not about the particular story about Roger Moore, my point is about understanding how to check facts.