31 replies to this topic

[ray t]

all these fans grumbling about the para-surfing scene as the glacier collapsed in DAD take a good look at the matrix

as the oracle leaves the courtyard, neo is confronted by an ever-expanding army of hugo weaving "smith" clones.

the sections with keanu reeves' neo being air borne are so rediculously cheesy they make the 007 para-surfing look real. well i'm exaggerating a bit but the point is clear:

the matrix's SFX is SUPPOSED to be avant-garde...yet keanu reeve's neo looked like a cartoon

spider-man, harry potter 2 and now matrix reloaded have shown that DAD's cgi isnt all that bad.

the only debate should be whether there should be any scenes in a bond where real stunts are replaced by cgi. perhaps if a scene is TOO DANGEROUS, then dont have it in the movie period.

btw, the motorbike chase with the carrie anne moss (a fellow canadian!) character as the rider was great fun.

i think we need a uniqe bike chase scene in Bond 21 as well as a scuba diving set piece with sharks....but NO CGI sharks, please!!!!

[MrDraco]

havent seen the Matrix-2 yet but the other CGI is low grade, DADs i wasnt all that saddened by i though it was 'ok' and didn't have this CGI Delimia

[The Admiral]

Seeing The Matrix tomorrow at 8pm.

As for:

perhaps if a scene is TOO DANGEROUS, then dont have it in the movie period.

I totally agree.

[Double-0 Six]

^^
My feelings exactly - if it can't be done "real", don't do it at all.

As for the Matrix, I've only seen the trailers and a few clips and I can't say I'm that impressed. Mind you, aside from the last half hour or so I didn't think the first film was that good anyway.

[ray t]

Originally posted by ray t


the only debate should be whether there should be any scenes in a bond where real stunts are replaced by cgi. perhaps if a scene is TOO DANGEROUS, then dont have it in the movie period.

i hate to take a HOLIER THAN THOU stance but 007 need not follow the fantasy/science fiction methodology of movie-making entirely.

admittedly they havent. DAD has a significant amount of real action (jinx dive/para-surfing the only exceptions) which does ground it significantly in reality.

its too bad that the mega-blocbusters are based beyond reality (lort, matrix, harry potter, star wars, spidey) because it definitely comes into play when a bond goes into production...the reason the goldeneye plane dive was put in is because they wanted to go one better than the arnie airplane sequence in TRUE LIES.

to eon: go the real route ...for my money, the avalanche in OHMSS beats the XXX scene in terms of tension/suspense hands down because u knew there was NO element of REAL danger in the XXX sequence

[ChandlerBing]

Just to comment on one of the other postings above...

I always thought Keanu Reeves was a cartoon.

[gkgyver]

"its too bad that the mega-blocbusters are based beyond reality (lort, matrix, harry potter, star wars, spidey) because it definitely comes into play when a bond goes into production... "


So you think it's the fault of other blockbuster- movies that the latest 007 adventures become more and more silly?
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Just because the movies mentioned above are fantasy- and science-fiction movies doesn't mean that Bond has to leave reality, simply because it's a completely different genre.

Movies like LOTR, Harry Potter or Star Wars are based in a whole other world and therefore require a much higher scale of technology.
And the mistake the Bond producers make is that they want to mess with these epic productions like LOTR or Star Wars by replacing things with CGI or cram in completely unnecessary stuff like the glacier stunt.
A movie like The Two Towers, with which DAD without a doubt had to compete with in many countries, has a literaric background and requires huge models and lots and lots of CGI, but for Bond this technology isn't necessary at all and that's what the producers have to realise.
The James Bond series is on the best way of ignoring its roots completely only because it wants to be equal to the movies mentioned above.
You don't have to rebuild London on the computer because London already exists.

[kevrichardson]

The people who hated the CGI in Die Another Day should be happy!

[ray t]

Originally posted by gkgyver
"its too bad that the mega-blocbusters are based beyond reality (lort, matrix, harry potter, star wars, spidey) because it definitely comes into play when a bond goes into production... "


So you think it's the fault of other blockbuster- movies that the latest 007 adventures become more and more silly?
Sorry, but this is ridiculous. .

did i say that....

NO

did i even imply it?

NO

i never said it WAS THE FAULT of the mega-blockbusters...simply that the success of those movies comes into play in the minds of the producers when a new bond comes into production.

[[dark]]

Originally posted by ChandlerBing
I always thought Keanu Reeves was a cartoon.

Don't be stupid - - cartoon characters can act.

[gkgyver]

Well, maybe I misunderstood you...

[solitaire]

Bond films should'nt try competeting with Sci fi/Fantasy epics.......because Bod will always lose and look foolish trying. Even though the character and situations in Bond films often srch the boundaries of credibility,they still have to be grounded in a some sort of reality the audience can relate too. As for the Matrix.....I have seen the film and I have to say the effects were awesome for that genre,and the scene with the "Mr Smith's" was spectacular.

[ray t]

Originally posted by solitaire
Bond films should'nt try competeting with Sci fi/Fantasy epics.......
Bond films ...still have to be grounded in a some sort of reality the audience can relate too.  

As for the Matrix.....I have seen the film and I have to say the effects were awesome for that genre,and the scene with the "Mr Smith's" was spectacular.

i totally agree that the bond films MUST be grounded within the bounds of reality. i'd go so far as to say even MOONRAKER (a movie i was blown away and amazed by when i was a kid) was grounded in reality and was, IN MY OPINION, plausable

as for the matrix, given the first matrix, one would EXPECT leading edge effects. the mr smiths scene in the said courtyard was ridiculous. i was yawning and rolling my eyes during that 'confrontation'. looked unbelievably C.H.E.E.S.Y....

the dance sequence in Zion, the chateau fight and the bike chase, however, were all awesome and all three had MESMERIC dance/tecno pieces in the soundtrack which i d-loaded within hours of seeing the flick:cool:

[solitaire]

Now I have that awful "Moonraker" theme song by Shirley Bassey stuck in my head:eek:

[MuratBond]

The thing I didnot like about DAD CGI is the idea itself: using CGI in a Bond movie. I have always loved how "they really did it" in Bond movies. TND motorcycle stunts are my favorites. Even despite its stupid sound effect TMWGG car roll is great since "they really did it". And in DAD they used CGI. It may have been the best and most realistic CGI of the whole cinema history and I still would like it.

[Doubleshot]

CGI was employed in the motorcycle stunt in Tomorrow Never Dies. The skyline of the city was expanded and computer generated blades were added to the helicopter. CG blades were also added to the scenes in which the helicopter blades are used to chop up parts of the street - and that's only the beginning of the CGI in the film. It's amazing that when CGI is used in little amounts, nobody notices. Technology had developed so far at that point that nobody noticed when it was used. I have to say, though, it seems like the parasailing stunt was a couple of steps back. I'm sure Cinesite had no difficult in expanding a skyline, adding helicopter blades, or making inconvenient barges in the distance dissappear, but taking on a fully computer generated stunt was perhaps too ambicious for today's technology. The stunt didn't ruin the film for me - as so many other fans let it ruin the experience for them - but I would have prefered for a smaller stunt or a couple of dialogue scenes to fill in. Ultimately, it wasn't just Tamahori's fault - it was overambition on the producers and Cinesite's parts as well.

[Tarl_Cabot]

"the sections with keanu reeves' neo being air borne are so rediculously cheesy they make the 007 para-surfing look real."

Dude! The Matrix is supposed to be an artificial environment. I'll admit the fight looked worse when I saw the film a second time but don't even bring up that atrocious scene in DAD.That was James Bond's official moment of jumping the shark.Bond films should be made for adults but accessable to kids. Cartoons don't belong in James Bond films, period.

[Doubleshot]

Of course... so The Matrix is SUPPOSED to look fake. That clears it up.

[ray t]

Originally posted by Doubleshot
Of course... so The Matrix is SUPPOSED to look fake. That clears it up.

touche':cool:

[Mourning Becomes Electra]

The Matrix may suppose to be an artifical environment but the fact that for 90% of the scenes inside it real actors (OK as real as Keanu can ever be) and not computer generated cartoons were used except in fight/action scenes makes the use of CGI just as glaring and out of place as it is in Bond. The Burly Brawl CGI use looked silly and gratuitous, especially as it went on and on and on and on.... (much longer than the DAD scene) And it didn't help that much of the stuff looked like it could have been done with wire, undercranked film and blue screen, and some later computer enhancement instead of having a computerized Neo and Agent Smiths playing out in what amounted to a very long video game scene. All claims to the contrary by the Matrix makers, the SFX were not groundbreaking... they didn't look any better than Spiderman or DAD (and at least those films used CGI for stunts that couldn't be done w/o it)

The worse piece of character CGI was the scene in the highway chase where one of the agents jumped out and landed on the hood of the car pounding it in... he was 100% CGI and and he was basically a bouncing cartoon in the midst of the huge rather realistic looking chase sequence.

CGI rendered humans NEVER look anything near realistic and they shouldn't be used until they do, in Bond or any other film unless it happens to be an animated film. I'm not even thrilled by the overuse of CGI for huge sets like in The Mummy or LOTR (they did it better though), they never look as good as the real thing but it's not as off-putting and glaring as animated characters.

[Brix Bond]

I disagree and say that the Smith scene was FAR superior to the Die Another Day one. I enjoyed it and DIDN'T cringe throughout it.

[ray t]

Originally posted by Brix_Bond_007
I disagree and say that the Smith scene was FAR superior to the Die Another Day one. I enjoyed it and DIDN'T cringe throughout it.

er, sure...

and what planet is your 'secluded country hideout' on?

i'm in total agreement on MBE on this one.

Mourning, u r the Queen!

[Jim]

ray t, do you really expect people to always agree with you? Tended to notice that if they don't, they get this sort of thing bunged back at them. Stylish.

[ray t]

sorry jim...apologies:(

[Brix Bond]

"er, sure...

and what planet is your 'secluded country hideout' on?"

You know it always surprises me that you people, having watched Bond films for years, your wit on the forums always remains rather lacklustre.

If you had read my comment on the matter you would have seen that I was not calling them groundbreaking, I was saying that they were far more realistic to DAD. However, it is obvious, in your rush to raise a 'laugh', that you did not read what I wrote. Perhaps you should move to where I am to think things over?

[Robinson]

Originally posted by Mourning Becomes Electra

The worst piece of character CGI was the scene in the highway chase where one of the agents jumped out and landed on the hood of the car pounding it in... he was 100% CGI and and he was basically a bouncing cartoon in the midst of the huge rather realistic looking chase sequence.    

CGI rendered humans NEVER look anything near realistic and they shouldn't be used until they do, in Bond or any other film unless it happens to be an animated film.  I'm not even thrilled by the overuse of CGI for huge sets like in The Mummy or LOTR (they did it better though), they never look as good as the real thing but it's not as off-putting and glaring as animated characters.

I agree but I believe CGI characters work in "comic book" adaptations(except Spider-Man). One of the great things about Blade II was the use of CGI for the film's climax. It gave the film a "Marvel Comics" element. I gave Matrix Reloaded some leeway since the Matrix was a computer generated simulation and therefore, the effects didn't have to be 100% photo-realistic. That being said, I'm sooo leery of what I can expect when "The Hulk" is released.

DAD, IMHO could acheived the parasailing scene by rear-projection(which was used to great effect in the hovercraft scene and Bond's arrival on the N.Korean shore), compositing and minimal CGI. I'd think the avalanche scene in OHMSS would serve as a proper template. I also think the producers could've gone the forced perspective route for Jinx's cliff jump in Cuba/Cadiz.

I still think the best CGI scene in a Bond film was Bond's fall from the balloon in TWINE.

[Doubleshot]

Originally posted by Robinson:
I still think the best CGI scene in a Bond film was Bond's fall from the balloon in TWINE.

I agree. It's so realistic to the point that some of the more casual fans don't even recognize that it's a computer composited shot. I also like the work Cinesite did on Thialand/Frogmore to make them combine and feel like Siagon. They did excellent work on the banner fall and the helicopter chase.

[Robinson]

Originally posted by Doubleshot


I agree. It's so realistic to the point that some of the more casual fans don't even recognize that it's a computer composited shot. I also like the work Cinesite did on Thialand/Frogmore to make them combine and feel like Siagon. They did excellent work on the banner fall and the helicopter chase.

My only beef with the helicopter chase was that when a 'copter's in that "nose down" position, it moves forward- not hover like it did in TND.

In any case, I think CGI should be used to enhance the live action scenes and stunts- not replace them.

[Brix Bond]

I don't think CGI should be used at all to enhance stunts in 007 films. It looks very out of place.

[Agent Lee]

I, for one, do not object too much to the CGI in the new Matrix film. After all, as others have already pointed out, if you are in the Matrix world, then you are in a computer simulation.

However, after that show ended, I had the definite impression that I had seen the Director