30 replies to this topic

[chronicliar]

Hey everyone. As a webmaster I get these e-mails asking q's about jb for people's term papers (I try to help if I can) and now its my turn.

Well in my "Minorities and the Media" class I need to write a 9 page paper. I am writing on the progression and sterotypes of women and minorities in the 50 years of the 007 series (books & film).

I obviously know a lot and this paper won't be to hard. Anyways does anyone off the top of thier head know of any racist or sexist remarks in any of the Flemings (Book, Chapter, etc.). I have all of them. Also do any of the books about JB like Legacy or Licence to Thrill say anything. I have all these books and I forget what is in which.

Any help would be great. I plan on putting my essay on my website when I finish.

Also what chapter was originally called "Nıgger Heaven" in L&LD?

Thanks so much!

[Loomis]

Racist or sexist remarks? Where does one start? I'm reading "Live and Let Die" at the moment, and have just started chapter 17 ("The Undertaker's Wind"), in which Bond is introduced to Quarrel, the Cayman Islander:



'Good morning, Captain,' said Quarrel. Coming from the most famous race of seamen in the world, this was the highest title he knew. But there was no desire to please, or humility, in his voice. He was speaking as mate of the ship and his manner was straightforward and candid.

That moment defined their relationship. It remained that of a Scots laird with his head stalker; authority was unspoken and there was no room for servility.



Not exactly a relationship of equals, then.

[Righty007]

In 'Dr. No' the book, Fleming used the name "chigroe" when talking about people who are Chinese/Black. I don't know if "chigroe" is racist but I do know it wouldn't be accepted in todays society.

[Coop]

Not sure if this is racism as such, but early in DAF, Bond is pretty scathing about Italian-American mobsters. It's quite funny actually. He says "They're not Americans. Mostly a lot of Italian bums with monogrammed shirts who spend the day eating spaghetti and meat-balls and squirting scent over themselves." (Chapter 3)

He he he

[Righty007]

Originally posted by Coop
Not sure if this is racism as such, but early in DAF, Bond is pretty scathing about Italian-American mobsters.  It's quite funny actually.  He says "They're not Americans.  Mostly a lot of Italian bums with monogrammed shirts who spend the day eating spaghetti and meat-balls and squirting scent over themselves."  (Chapter 3)

He he he

Thats more of a sterotype than it is racism.

[Coop]

Yes, and how does one define racism in a book anyway? Just because a character acts in a certain way, doesn't mean he is fully endorsed by the author. Bond's opinions on Italian-Americans may not have been Flemings.

In fact, Fleming's portrayal of blacks in LALD was very advanced for the time. Compare it with other thriller writers of his generation- Sapper and WE Johns for example- to see how lacking in racism the Bond books are.

PS> Chronicliar, have you thought about using Bond's 'conversion' of the lesbian Pussy Galore? That would make a good paragraph in your paper.

[Coop]

Oh and don't forget the wonderful Mr Wint and Mr Kidd (film versions)

[Mister Asterix]

Originally posted by chronicliar (edited)
Also what chapter was originally called "Nıgger Heaven" in L&LD?

Chapter 5 – Seventh Avenue

There is about two and a half pages of dialog left out of that chapter in the US version. There are also several other small edits in the US version. For instance, at one point Felix calls one of the thugs a ‘a big black ape’, where the US version he says, ‘a big ape’. Either would be considered racist by today’s standards, however in 1954 it is hard to say. Like a lot of the ‘racist’ passages in the Fleming books, they could have been quite innocent at the time.

For your information, I understand it the new US release of Live and Let Die will have the original UK text, Nıgger Heaven and all. Though that may be why the books are delayed.

[Dr Niles Crane]

Live and let Die:

What about all that stuff about the Negroes being ok until they got drunk and ran amok..? I think it was somewhere a long the lines of that they are generally placid people until they get some liquour into them, they are easily lead and easily frightened by superstition - unlike heducated white people. Holy Smoke Felix!!!

[Mister Asterix]

Yes, but we are talking about a white guy who has a generally positive view of black people in 1954. And yes, it is prejudice to paint in such broad strokes, but in that time practically nobody was saying that there was anything wrong with racial stereotypes. Felix, I would assume comepletely on his own, decided that there really is not anything wrong with black people. In 1954 that was darned liberal.

[Agent 0011]

PS> Chronicliar, have you thought about using Bond's 'conversion' of the lesbian Pussy Galore? That would make a good paragraph in your paper. [/B][/QUOTE]

I would think this could make an interesting part to the paper too.....the whole view of gays/lesbians at the time of Goldfinger shows that it was mostly thought to be an issue of pure preference for a person who just hadn't happened to meet the "right person" to change their mind.


and as an Italian-American...i do find it mildly offensive to stereo-type people as that type sitting around eating spaghetti all day..(not that I don't eat my share)...wouldn't find it racially insenstive, but a bit much of a stereo-type yes. Do think that is one of the commone misconceptions that is repeatedly shown thru the media for many many years now. From bond to the Sopranos...i think it would consitute that.

[Turn]

The most notorious film racist example is in Dr. No when Bond tells Quarrel to fetch his shoes.

Here's an interesting note a friend pointed out to me. Eon Productions has actually done a lot to give work to actors of various races over the years since the films have such international settings.

[Stuart]

In one of the novels (can't remember which), Fleming writes of Bond's disdain for women drivers.

Something along the lines of two women in a car are dangerous as they have to look at each other when they talk. Four women are doubly hazardous as the driver must look at the women in the backseat as well.

[Bondpurist]

I love this sexist remark from the novel Thunderball:
"Women are meticulous and safe drivers, but they are very seldom first class."
And his comment to Domino in the film Thunderball:
"Most girls just paddle around. You swim like a man" is classic.
As for racism, well, there isn't much serious racism in Fleming Bond novels. At the time, they were probably quite enlightened. Judging books of the 50s and 60s by todays overreactionary and kneejerk standards is silly anyway; the 'racism' in Fleming's novels is normally no more than slight racial condescendation or patronisation, which, as stupid as it is, isn't particularly offensive, and is blown out of all proportion by today's PC obssessed morons who create more problems than they solve.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

I'm not really too sure if this is racist, but throughout the novel LALD, Fleming constantly has his black characters talk with sort of a slur or stereotypical accent. "Ahm tahd," "Yo' next, Fatso," "Yassuh" are just a few examples. He was pretty sexist in some cases as well, even in the first novel Casino Royale: "These blithering women who thought they could do a man's work. Why the hell couldn't they just stay at home and mind their pots and pans and stick to their frocks and gossip and leave men's work to the men." It kind of rubbed off in the films, most notably in OP, which today coud be conseidered really racist today: "That should keep you in curry for a few weeks." It wasn't so bad in the 80's, but today it could be considered one of the most racial comments in a Bond film. Well, that's what I read in a thread here at CBn, anyway. So, yes, the Fleming novels were prevalent with bigotry, like racism and sexism. Hope that helped.

[Mister Asterix]

Originally posted by Double-Oh-Zero (edited)
I'm not really too sure if this is racist, but throughout the novel LALD, Fleming constantly has his black characters talk with sort of a slur or stereotypical accent. "Ahm tahd," "Yo' next, Fatso," "Yassuh" are just a few examples.

I wouldn’t say that was racism since people actually talked that way. Fleming may have exagerated the speech for effect, and yes that to could be considered racist.

To me, particularly when we are talking about the 50s and 60s, racism is not the action or statement rather it is in the intent. For instance, you cannot say that Connery ordering Quarrel to ‘fetch my shoes’ is racist unless you can say that he said it that way because Quarrel was black. Remember Quarrel was working under Bond’s command, so Bond wouldn’t have to say please. Plus haste was in order, and the word ‘fetch’ quickly and perfectly described what Bond wanted. The question becomes would Bond have asked Lieter to fetch his shoes? I don’t see why not. Of course, Lieter wasn’t there. Quarrel was.

Was Bond’s order insensitive? Yes. Was Bond’s order demeaning? Yes. But was it racist? I can only say maybe. And maybe is not enough to accuse racism.

[chronicliar]

This paper is actually going to be a lot of fun.

I don't think Fleming was racist it just that he lived in a different time. I just want to show the progresion of the film and characters and how over the 50 years the role of women and minorites has changed with the times.

Thanks again. If you can think of anything else feel free to write!

Also what chapter in L&LD does it say how black people are good till they drink?

[Bondpurist]

the Fleming novels were prevalent with bigotry, like racism and sexism.

I hardly agree. The racism was, if there at all, pretty tame by the standards of the time. I really don't think Fleming's description of the negroes' parlance is very racist. How is describing the way in which people talk racist? I think that's just contriving something out of very little. As far as I remember Fleming described Quarrel in a pretty good light, and, let's not forget, Mr Big was a negro and one of Bond's most formidable allies. If Fleming was so racist he'd have hardly created such a powerful and strong black character.
As for the sexism; well, it's undeniable, but I must admit I actually enjoy it. I'm so sick of ultra-sensitive ultra-reactionary ultra politically correct ravings and rantings denouncing anything even vaguely resembling differentation between the sexes (let alone sexism) that Fleming is a very refreshing antidote.

[chronicliar]

What book about the Bond novels and films talk about the racism and sexism in the 007 media? I have most of them.

Could Bond be portrayed by a black actor? Brosnan and Moore have both made comments.

Where else is Bond's opinion or homosexuals? Is there a quote in DAF?

Thanks again. You all have made research really easy. It is hard to go through 14 books and look for the quotes you know are somewhere in there.

[Mister Asterix]

Off the top of my head the most obvious example of Bond and homosexuality is in the novel Goldfinger. Most people remember Pussy Galore who was a lesbian until she met the right man, but Tilly Masterson is an actual lesbian. I felt Fleming—and Bond—treated Tilly’s lesbianism with a lot of respect. Tilly was the major Bond girl in the novel and Bond was obviously attracted to her, but Bond could see his attempts to seduce her hit a wall and never forced himself upon her.

[marktmurphy]

Homosexuals can't whistle. (Fleming) fact.

[MrDraco]

I'm Am the Black James Bond (LOL) but anyways..
I've read most of the fleming books and Colonelsun i've watched the movies etc.. and i don't really find it all that bad because thats what it was like living in those times but if you think about it Fleming had a pretty worldly view because after all he did live in Jamaica...He wrote spy stories about places most American's have hardly ever been so he had to have some since of the culture,

[solitaire]

Ian Fleming was a product of his times.....and in that respect he was a racist. Any honest person can see that in his novels,and certainly any black person will see it jumping off the page. I doubt he hated black people,but he certainly showed his annoying british colonial attitude in the novels.

As for his views of homosexuality....they were also a product of his time.
The character of "Pussy Galore" was a typical male fantasy of a lesbian.
True lesbians are'nt looking for the right man.

[Coop]

>>Ian Fleming was a product of his times.....and in that respect he was a racist. Any honest person can see that in his novels<<

I don't find this a particularly persuasive argument. Fleming took great care to represent non-whites in a non-stereotypical manner. How many other genre novels of that period had 'ethnic' characters as sympathetically portrayed as Quarrel or Tiger Tanaka? Even Mr Big was well- written. Try reading some Biggles books from the 50s to see how it could have been.

[Mister Asterix]

Originally posted by solitaire (edit)
As for his views of homosexuality....they were also a product of his time.
The character of "Pussy Galore" was a typical male fantasy of a lesbian.
True lesbians are'nt looking for the right man.

And like I said Tilly Masterson is a real lesbian, and more of a major character. Yet it is Pussy that gets all of the attention.

[Coop]

>>As for his views of homosexuality....they were also a product of his time.<<

It should also be remembered that Fleming was friends with Noel Coward and Coward's male partner.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by Coop
>>As for his views of homosexuality....they were also a product of his time.<<

It should also be remembered that Fleming was friends with Noel Coward and Coward's male partner.

So what......is that supposed to mean he loved gays:rolleyes:

[Righty007]

I think Coop mean't that Fleming had nothing against gays not that he loved them.

[Coop]

>>I think Coop mean't that Fleming had nothing against gays not that he loved them.<<

Yes, exactly. I don't think anyone could suggest that Fleming had gay leanings; he was too much of a womaniser. But that doesn't mean he couldn't count gay people among his friends.

[St John Smythe]

There is a paragraph of Chapter 5 in Dr. No, where Playdell-Smith comments to Bond about the Jamaicans wanting self-determination:

"Self-determination indeed! They cant even run a bus service. And the color problem! My dear chap, there's far more colour problem between the straight-haired and the crinkly0haired jamaicans than there is between me and my black cook"

Again, this probably didnt seem racist for the time, but with a 21st century view, it does seem racist.