40 replies to this topic

[marktmurphy]

But surely, by your logic, he is famous because he is good. Isn't that your thinking towards Fleming or have I misunderstood your earlier statements?

[Xenobia]

I suppose my point is, Shakespeare is famous, not because he is good, he surely is, but because someone somewhere decided to use more Shakespeare than any other Elizabethian writer. I am not sure if "Good" or "Bad" came into play, so much as whose work they could keep getting their hands on.

-- Xen

[marktmurphy]

Well then Fleming is considered good because of a lucky combination of events which saw his books inspire a successful film series. Not because of his talents. He is good at what he does, namely prose- the stories and characters have nothing to make them stand out from the rest of the crowd.
So if your point is that famous writers must be good, but yet some reasonably talented writers are famous because of quirks of history, then I fail to see your point.

And if you are really saying that Shakespeare is judged great simply because it was easier for one bloke to reach a portfolio of his stuff than of Marlowe's on a higher shelf, then I think the older and wiser Xen will have a shock when she thinks back to 2004.

[B007GLE]

Shakespeare is chosen more than other Elizabethan writers because he is one of the greatest (if not the Greatest) dramatist ever.

Just as EON uses Fleming elements more than Gardner or Benson because he is the better writer.

Of course Fleming was a writer of thrillers. These are never taken as seriously.

Graham Green wrote both thrillers and serious fiction. He called his thrillers "entertainments" so as to distinguish them from his other more serious and lauded work.

John LeCarre may be the only thriller writer who is considered a wrtier of great quality. (Probably because his books use espionage only as a stage for constant stories of betrayal and base human emotion/deeds.)

[doublenoughtspy]

It's interesting you should bring up John LeCarre.

When LeCarre was first starting out, in interviews he always said Fleming was a much more talented writer.

After he became more famous, and Fleming passed away..he said Fleming was a hack and that Bond would be the first person to defect if the Russians gave him more booze, money and sex.

Personally I think it refelected a bitterness that Fleming's creation will always be more popular than anything LeCarre came up with.

"oooh his plots are so realistic...a delving into the human condition...the true grittiness of espionage...etc. etc."

Yay. If I want that I'll turn on the 6 o' clock news.

[Xenobia]

Mark....when the evil Literary Canon is finally destroyed once and for all, I think it will be you who is in for a shock when someone other than a white anglo-saxon protestant is hailed as the greatest writer of all time, let alone, of the Elizabethian era.

Mark, by the way, tell me again what literary and teaching degrees you have? I seem to have forgotten. I ask you this, not to boast about myself, but to find out if there is some degree that you have that makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else's here. Please remind me what that degree is.

-- Xenobia

[Four Aces]

...when the evil Literary Canon is finally destroyed once and for all, I think it will be you who is in for a shock when someone other than a white anglo-saxon protestant is hailed as the greatest writer of all time, let alone, of the Elizabethian era...

Oh please, none of this anti-DWM stuff.

And I think some of the ancient Greek stuff trumps Shakespeare already anyways, like the Iliad and the Odyssey.

4A

[Jim]

Dear all

The topic is "Fleming not appreciated enough?" (Perhaps Fleming insufficiently appreciated? would be smoother, but hey ho), not "What I fink of Shakespeare".

Thanks.

[brendan007]

You know what guys, here's the bottom line: Since day one when Mark and I first went toe to toe, he has valued his opinion over mine and anyone elses, and frankly, I am sick and tired of him constantly asking me to prove my point of view when no one else is asking him to do the same.

So yes, I am asking him for his degrees, I am asking him for ANYTHING that gives him the right to hold himself above anyone else on this board. My point is, I am sick of his behavior, and I know I am not the only one. Enough is enough.

IMHO, Shakespeare is a great writer, that is true, and he would be a part of the canon no matter what, but his preemience is not due to his writing only, but also in great portion to prevalance of English literature throughout the world in deteriment to other literatures.

No offence, but you have just done the exact same thing you accused Mark of doing. Just because you have a degree does not make your opinion more worthwhile than anyone else's.
Please excuse the lowly beings who didnt attend universtiy for having opinions different to yours.

[Xenobia]

Brendan, you are absolutely right, I'm sorry. I was very angry last night and tired of the way MarkTMurphy treats me. I lost my temper and I said lots of things I shouldn't have said.

I am going back in deleting a lot of my comments and try to make amends.

I am leaving up yours and Four Aces just to keep myself in line, so I don't do it again.

Apologies to one and all, and most of all, as Jim said, this is about Fleming. Let's get back to Ian, so he is appreciated as he should be.

-- Barbara

[philbowski]

Getting back to Fleming.... I've never read any of his non-Bond work, but I have to say that his books are the most entertaining I've ever read.