25 replies to this topic

[Byron]

Picking up on a point from the change the title back to Licence Revoked thread, which of the two Dalton 007 films appears more dated and why? Or if you prefer in years to come which one will look fresh and relevant?

Although i prefer TLD slightly over LTK, i have to say TLD appears more dated due to the Afghanistan plot line.

[Xenobia]

I'd have to agree with you Bryon, especially because of one particular detail I have heard.

The character played by Art Malik, Kamran Shah, is alledgely based on Osama Bin Laden. Go figure.

-- Xenobia

[Loomis]

THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS is far more dated than LICENCE TO KILL, for a number of reasons:

- In the film, the Cold War is still in full swing. It's a film of defections, eastern European sleepers, Czechs under communism, safe houses, KGB villains, etc. There's even a jokey reference to THE THIRD MAN that makes it far more dated than it needed to be (I believe John Glen worked on that film as a youngster). And there's the fact that the Afghan freedom fighters are the good guys (they wouldn't have made Kamran Shah nice and sympathetic if they'd thought he was the sort of chap who a decade or so later would be banning all forms of music and blowing up ancient Buddhist statues).*

- The very 80s synth pop of a-Ha's title song has not aged well.

- Neither have Q's quip about ghettoblasters and Moneypenny's reference to her Barry Manilow collection. Heaven knows what today's equivalents would be (I'm getting old and out-of-touch, I guess) - maybe jokes about MP3s and Moneypenny listening to Robbie Williams?

In addition, the Brits' use of Gibraltar in the pre-credits sequence will probably make the film look even more dated before long.

As for LICENCE TO KILL, I can't think of anything in particular that makes it seem dated. With hindsight, it seems to have anticipated the 90s very well. Although I'm sure that other members will join this thread to make the usual predictable and tired references to "Miami Vice":rolleyes:.

*Not to mention even worse things, like calling for and helping to plot the mass-murder of "infidels", of course.

[rafterman]

I don't think either is dated, but the story to The Living Daylights is the most period specific....it couldn't happen today that's for sure....

[White Tuxedo]

This whole issue about some Bond movies being dated, and that it's a bad thing is totally bogus. ALL Bond films are dated, granted some more than others (Afghans, boomboxes, and pink ties). 99.9 percent of all films anyway are dated. I think it makes watching the movies much more interesting IMHO. You see how it all evolves.

I would agree with TLD being slightly more dated. LTK is as well, but TLD wins out.

Also, I think the songs from both have aged quite well. They are both among my favorite Bond songs. This whole about aging is... ehhh.

[Dr Noah]

While events may have dated TLD, the movie "looks" better than the "Miami Vice" feel of LTK. The European scenes of TLD have a nice "fairy tale" feel to them.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
While events may have dated TLD, the movie "looks" better than the "Miami Vice" feel of LTK.  The European scenes  of TLD have a nice "fairy tale" feel to them.

One would think that this tired discussion of a Miami Vice element in LTK would be finished .Since TLD has a element of Soviet communism and the Afgan/Soviet War. while the Drug problem in America still exsist.

[Daltonitus]

I think the plot points of TLD are dated, but the film doesn't look dated - it could all easily be reshot today with little to no differences.

LTK on the other hand has 1990 written all over it in terms of looks, style and 'feel', not to mention the drugs baron plot.

[Johnson Galore]

Just on style and looks alone, LTK is more dated. TLD fits more closely with that sumptuous, worldly look of AVTAK, OP MR, TSWLM, etc. LTK is an oddity for so many reasons not the least of which is it's lack of globe-hopping. Could there be less attractive locations in a Bond film?

[Dr Noah]

"Could there be less attractive locations in a Bond film?"

Thats a good point. I wonder how many Americans watch the Bond movies because they usually offer different locations to the majority of the other action movies on offer?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Daltonitus
I think the plot points of TLD are dated, but the film doesn't look dated - it could all easily be reshot today with little to no differences.

Replace the Afghanstan rebels with AlQaida ?

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Loomis

I'm sure that other members will join this thread to make the usual predictable and tired references to "Miami Vice":rolleyes:.

Originally posted by Dr Noah
While events may have dated TLD, the movie "looks" better than the "Miami Vice" feel of LTK.

*Sigh* Originality, anyone? Anyone?

Originally posted by Daltonitus
I think the plot points of TLD are dated, but the film doesn't look dated - it could all easily be reshot today with little to no differences.

LTK on the other hand has 1990 written all over it in terms of looks, style and 'feel', not to mention the drugs baron plot.  

I don't understand, Daltonitus. How is LICENCE TO KILL more dated in terms of "looks, style and 'feel'" than THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS?

I think LTK is timeless. As you claim of TLD, I believe that LTK "could all easily be reshot today with little to no differences." Why is the drugs baron plot old hat? Have the drug lords of Central and South America gone away? News to me if they have.

Originally posted by Johnson Galore

Could there be less attractive locations in a Bond film?  

Er, yes! Just think of St Petersburg in GOLDENEYE, Hamburg and a Bangkok-shot Saigon that looks nothing like Saigon whatsoever in TOMORROW NEVER DIES, rainy London, Central Asian underground bunkers and an "Istanbul" the filmmakers manage to make the very least of in THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH, a North Korea that bears a strong resemblance to the Herfordshire countryside in DIE ANOTHER DAY, etc.!

LICENCE TO KILL has WONDERFUL locations in the Florida Keys and Mexico, with things like the Main Post Office Building in Mexico City standing in for the Banco de Isthmus, the palatial retreat of one of Cubby Broccoli's billionaire pals for Sanchez's home (my vote for the single most striking Bond location ever), the Olimpatec Meditation Institute for Professor Butcher's HQ, etc. How anyone can claim LTK has unattractive locations is beyond me. Just watch the movie and decide whether most people in the audience would dream of going to the places it shows them or to the dreary locales of the Brosnan Bond films.

Okay, I'm done. I'll leave everyone to get on with going on about Crockett and Tubbs.

[Dr Noah]

"I'm sure that other members will join this thread to make the usual predictable and tired references to "Miami Vice"

It's only predictable because it is obvious.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
"I'm sure that other members will join this thread to make the usual predictable and tired references to "Miami Vice"

So in your mind Bond is Crockett and Felix Leiter is Tubbs ? And Sanchez was just a cheap Latin Drug craz ? . What then was LALD ? Bond as Al Jolson !

[Dr Noah]

"What then was LALD"

A great Bond movie??

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
"What then was LALD"
A great Bond movie??

I like LALD also feel that it's one of Moore's best . Still it has the Drug element . Plus a non-white super villian . Kananga want's to do is increase the demand for heroin .

[doublenoughtspy]

Why the complaints about Miami Vice comparisons? Not only are they valid - but most of the critics at the time (Playboy, Variety. etc.) specifically mentioned that LTK was more like an episode of the show than what we expect from a Bond film.

While I'll agree that some of the LTK sets are interesting - the locales are all the same climate type - Mexico & Key West are not that different - warm, palm trees etc.

What happened to globe hopping and climate changing - for example OHMSS - snows of switzerland contrasted with the warmth of portugal.

SWLM - snows of austria contrasted with the desert of egypt, etc.

LTK was shot in mexico to save money and it shows. What sort of Bond movie doesn't have him at least for a few scenes in London or Europe?

I think the thing that most dates LTK is Dalton's horrible dracula haircut.

Yes, the cold war is over - but the european & middle east & london action of TLD, along with the elegant wardrobe, and the John Barry score - make it timeless rather than dated.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr Noah

"I'm sure that other members will join this thread to make the usual predictable and tired references to "Miami Vice"

It's only predictable because it is obvious.    

Well, if you want to parrot the same old lazy comparisons to "Miami Vice" that we've read a million times before, go ahead.

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy

Why the complaints about Miami Vice comparisons?  Not only are they valid - but most of the critics at the time (Playboy, Variety. etc.) specifically mentioned that LTK was more like an episode of the show than what we expect from a Bond film.

Silly me, of course they're valid comparisons. I mean, Bond does drive a Testarossa and strut around in sunglasses, a cream designer suit with the sleeves rolled up and a T-shirt underneath, and loafers with no socks. Jan Hammer's synthscapes play over every scene. There are dozens of cameos by 80s pop stars. I mean, it's astonishing that the people behind "Miami Vice" didn't sue the makers of LICENCE TO KILL.

While we're at it, why don't we compare TOMORROW NEVER DIES to "The Avengers", since the film is about a gentleman spy from England who teams up with a karate-kicking babe in black leather, or THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH to "Dallas", since both are about dysfunctional family relations and scheming within the oil industry?

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy

While I'll agree that some of the LTK sets are interesting - the locales are all the same climate type - Mexico & Key West are not that different - warm, palm trees etc.

So? Personally I prefer the Bond films that tend to stay in one place and really explore it (YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE being the best example) to those that seem to want to squeeze in as many countries as possible purely for the sake of it. And I can do without any scenes of Bond in London or Europe (in any case, there is a London scene in LTK, albeit without 007).

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy

I think the thing that most dates LTK is Dalton's horrible dracula haircut.

Hey, at least he didn't have a mullet. Look at the haircuts people like Mel Gibson and Patrick Swayze were sporting at the time. And if Connery had continued as Bond well into the 1970s, the character would probably have ended up with a handlebar moustache and enormous sideburns.

Originally posted by doublenoughtspy

Yes, the cold war is over - but the european & middle east & london action of TLD, along with the elegant wardrobe, and the John Barry score - make it timeless rather than dated.  

What's wrong with the clothes in LTK? Some of the best costume design of the series, IMO. And while I feel Barry was one of the handful of people who really made the Bond series what it was, and that he's ten times the composer someone like David Arnold will ever be, I'd say that Michael Kamen's LTK score (which is more Barry than Barry) is far superior to Barry's work on TLD.

Anyway, I know I'll never convince the Crockett and Tubbs lobby. Maybe some day you'll all see the light about the masterpiece that is LICENCE TO KILL.

[Dr Noah]

"Well, if you want to parrot the same old lazy comparisons to "Miami Vice" that we've read a million times before, go ahead."

Ok, LTK borrows its generic modes from several late '80s sources, Miami Vice being one, replacing the serie's ideology with the generic conventions of the then current "action movie". These modes being recogonisably '80s (from a modern perspective) dates the movie.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr Noah

replacing the serie's ideology with the generic conventions of  the then current "action movie".  

Which is standard operating procedure for the Bond series, no? LIVE AND LET DIE took inspiration from the then-hot blaxploitation thrillers, while THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN looked to the Hong Kong martial arts movies of the Shaw Brothers and others, and MOONRAKER got made thanks to STAR WARS and the late-70s sci-fi boom. LICENCE TO KILL is no more a product of its time or dated than any other Bond movie is or will be.

[Dr Noah]

"Which is standard operating procedure for the Bond series, no?"

No.

The Bond series has,maintained a specific ideological and generic identity. It may assimalate other genre's (such as blaxploition) but in each case the ideology is maintained ie the Bond elements are still to the fore in TMWTGG, despite the martial arts bit.

LTK abandons the Bond ideology and the key elements of the series, Bond is no longer a professional instead becomes a vengence driven vigilante, a "rogue cop" with a hostile relationship with his superiors. In other words, Bond becomes a "typical action hero of the late '80s".

There are hundreds of 'eighties movies with the same narrative pattern as LTK, whereas TLD stands apart, hence I see LTK being typical of it's time and being the most dated of the two.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
"Which is standard operating procedure for the Bond series, no?"

No.  

The Bond series has,maintained a specific ideological and generic identity.  It may assimalate other genre's (such as blaxploition) but in each case the ideology is maintained ie the Bond elements are still to the fore in TMWTGG, despite the martial arts bit.

LTK abandons the Bond ideology and the key elements of the series, Bond is no longer a professional instead becomes a vengence driven vigilante, a "rogue cop" with a hostile relationship with his superiors.  In other words, Bond becomes a "typical action hero of the late '80s".  

I disagree. LICENCE TO KILL does not abandon "the Bond ideology and the key elements of the series".

The film overflows with Bondian elements. There are gorgeous and willing women whom our hero goes to bed with. There are incredible stunts and exotic locations. Bond goes to a casino. He uses clever gadgets from Q Branch. Q turns up for the usual banter and comedy (with an X-ray of a photograph oddly revealing a skelton). Moneypenny still fancies Bond. And Bond is still as sexy, dangerous and heroic as ever. As far as I'm concerned, "the Bond elements are still to the fore". So I don't believe LICENCE TO KILL = ROAD HOUSE (to name one 80s action movie).

Originally posted by Dr Noah

I see LTK  being typical of it's time and being the most dated of the two.  

Well, that's a matter of personal opinion, so I can't disagree with you, but I certainly don't agree that LTK trashes the Bond series' "ideology".

[Dr Noah]

"Well, that's a matter of personal opinion"

Well isn't everything here?

Personally I don't think LTK is a Bond movie, I think it is a typical American movie of it's period (perhaps that's why it bores me silly, Bond is just some silly generic American hero who just happens to be Welsh).

But really, my opinion doesn't really matter much and you obviously love the movie and its nice to see people being eutheastic about movies.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Dr Noah
"Well, that's a matter of personal opinion"

Well isn't everything here?

Of course, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't query each other's opinions. These forums would be very dull if we did nothing but agree with each other.

Originally posted by Dr Noah

Personally I don't think LTK is a Bond movie, I think it is a typical American movie of it's period (perhaps that's why it bores me silly, Bond is just some silly generic American hero who just happens to be Welsh).

But really, my opinion doesn't really matter much and you obviously love the movie and its nice to see people being eutheastic about movies.

Well, I'd say that Brosnan's Bond is far more of a "silly generic American hero" than Dalton's ever was (he speaks in a mid-Atlantic drawl and seems to be permanently blasting away at things like Rambo), but my opinion is of no more value than yours, Dr Noah. Yes, I love LICENCE TO KILL, but I don't hate those who don't.

And I know exactly where youy're coming from on LTK. Some see a joyless, run-of-the-mill 80s action movie that goes against everything the Bond series was supposed to be about, while others see the universe of Ian Fleming and a daring attempt to breathe new life into the Bond franchise. Some see "Miami Vice" crossed with A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET, while others see the best Bond film since FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE. It all comes down to personal taste, and therefore no one is "right" or "wrong".

So no hard feelings, Dr Noah:).

[Dr Noah]

So no hard feelings, Mr Loom

Like I said, it is nice to see people who are enthusistic about a movie that they obviously love

LTK seems to one movie people either love or hate, I don't think any other Bond movie has this reaction on fans.

PS

I still think it has dated more than TLD

[Turn]

I'm going to partially agree with Dr. Noah that LTK does have something in common with a lot of '80s films about drug dealers. I think at the time I may have even wondered why Bond was involved in something as common as drug running.

But I will differ in that I believe there are elements that make this unmistakably a James Bond movie. As I said in another post, the series was hardly aping Miami Vice, but again dipping into the reality of the time in making Sanchez the Bond equal of Manuel Noriega, a South American drug lord who had his own fortress and army protecting him at that time.

As for whoever mentioned the critics of the time comparing LTK to Miami Vice, well, that's a pretty useless blanket statement that lacks creativity. These are the some of the same people who think DAD was a reaction to XXX. The fact so many say the same thing says more about their ability to critique rather than their ability to say something in a unique way.