182 replies to this topic

[marktmurphy]

Sorry; 'Ian Fleming's Robinson'?

[Truman-Lodge]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
Here is a interesting question . Was Benson know that is verision of literary Bond was not selling ?  What are the number in the USA and worldwide for all of Benson's books ,excluding the novelizations of the films( TND ,TWINE ) .  Is ther anyone would could do what GArdner did inthe early 80's.  Revive Literary Bond or are we stuck with just re-prints of Fleming.

Please please please read over your post before hitting "Submit".

1) Yes, Benson knew his books weren't selling as well as everyone hoped.

2) That would be very difficult to figure out. I imagine the novelizations sold slightly better though.

3) I'm not sure what the question is.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Xenobia
So what we have here is Fleming the name sells more than Benson the name, James Bond be damned.

I can not now remember the name of this genius, (some Sci-fi fans, help me out), but he leased to other Sci-Fi writers the rights to the universe he created, and the characters that "live there."  As long as the writers followed very loose guidelines, they could do what they want.  The books were sold under the banner of "Author Icantremember's Universe."

Why not then, "Ian Fleming's Secret World" where authors can work not only with James Bond, but with Tanner, Robinson, etc.  Even Felix can come back.

I think this could work with certain conditions:

1) Expectations are based on the author and his following.
2) There is an understanding among fans that what one writer does will not be repeated by another author.
3) It will renew interest in Bond as he is seen through different authors.

These different authors could put him back in the fifties, or keep Bond contemporary.    

It's a thought.

It could be a bad thought, but I wouldn't mind the experiment of this, particularly if it is presented online where people pay for the privledge of accessing the site with the chapters.  (And this site of course, would not be downloadable or printable.)

The "Fleming Universe" would  have a finite time period, no more than five years.  If at the end of that period, it appears that one writer really has captured the fans interest, then he (or she) is given the Bond copyright, and we are back the old Fleming / Amis / Gardner / Benson model.

-- Xenobia

Doesn't Tom Clancy lease his name out to other writers, with a series of novels called "Tom Clancy's Special Ops", or "Tom Clancy's Taskforce", or something like that?

Not sure I like the online idea of yours, Xen. For one thing, I hate the idea of sites charging, and if you can't even download or print something once you've paid to access it, well....

Let's face it, folks, the literary series is as dead as a doornail.

BTW, I believe kevrichardson is asking whether we think there are any authors out there capable of being the next John Gardner.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Jim
...In May, according to this scale, The Man with the Red Tattoo sold 377 copies...

...In May 2002 Dr No sold 554 copies.

Wow. Ouch.

[Blue Eyes]

At the end of the day the Bond novels should always mentioned Ian Fleming anyway, imo.

[Simon]

Originally posted by marktmurphy
But surely most established good writers have their own ideas- why play with somebody else's when you can create your own?

I think if only the writers have a burning itch to try a totally different approach, ie to have Bond in situations a la 007 in New York, or Quantum of Solace (as examples).

To try stories that didn't revolve around saving the world but were more quirky or home grown. A sort of Spy Who Loved me where for the most part, something else is the focal point and Bond pops up with a talented and trained contribution.

Anyway, a situation where the writing and author are the srongest points, not the Brioni suit and ready made film script.

Perhaps.

I'd welcome it.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Loomis


BTW, I believe kevrichardson is asking whether we think there are any authors out there capable of being the next John Gardner.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't have the confidence to put money on it.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Simon

I think if only the writers have a burning itch to try a totally different approach, ie to have Bond in situations a la 007 in New York, or Quantum of Solace (as examples).
To try stories that didn't revolve around saving the world but were more quirky or home grown.  A sort of Spy Who Loved me where for the most part, something else is the focal point and Bond pops up with a talented and trained contribution.
Anyway, a situation where the writing and author are the srongest points, not the Brioni suit and ready made film script.

This will not happen since the Fleming estate (The Ian Fleming Publications ) will continue to want to tie into the Cinematic Bond . And not have that much of a difference between the two . So as not to confuss the reading public . Look Benson got a raw deal. He replaced a author who just over stayed his welcome. Which lead to a drop in interest in the series . I would like to compare the numbers for sales of Gardner book over his Tenure . I am sure the trend started during his time , and continued under Benson.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by Xenobia
I can not now remember the name of this genius, (some Sci-fi fans, help me out), but he leased to other Sci-Fi writers the rights to the universe he created, and the characters that "live there."  As long as the writers followed very loose guidelines, they could do what they want.  The books were sold under the banner of "Author Icantremember's Universe."

Why not then, "Ian Fleming's Secret World" where authors can work not only with James Bond, but with Tanner, Robinson, etc.  Even Felix can come back.

Xen, I suspect your thinking about 'Michael Moorcock's Multiverse'. it was a comic book line from a few years back. When Mike was editor of 'New Worlds' magazine he let some of the other regular contributors write stories about his Elric and Jerry Cornelius characters. (Though he got a bit miffed when Grant Morrison pinched some of the Cornelius stuff for an issue of 'The invisibles' and never credited the source.)

The idea of an "Ian Fleming's Secret World", with a rotation of guest authors (or something like that) would hopefully keep the series fresh.

[marktmurphy]

Mmm..yes Xen- Tanner, Felix and (Ian Fleming's [?]) Robinson being such interesting and well rounded characters.
Thats sarcasm 'folks'.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by marktmurphy
Mmm..yes Xen- Tanner, Felix and (Ian Fleming's [?]) Robinson being such interesting and well rounded characters. Thats sarcasm 'folks'.

Point taken. But what's to say a new author(s) couldn't find ways to put an interesting spin on some of the supporting cast?

[Xenobia]

Originally posted by marktmurphy
Mmm..yes Xen- Tanner, Felix and (Ian Fleming's [?]) Robinson being such interesting and well rounded characters. Thats sarcasm 'folks'.

Yes, I am aware it is sarcasm...but guess what? With my idea, folks get a chance to make them well rounded characters. Would that be such a bad idea?

To address another point that I believe you made, good writers appreciate other good writers, and God only knows, I bet there are a lot of them out there who would have loved to have written about Bond. When given the chance (under my plan), I suspect their contributions would be outstanding.

As for paying for sites....I am with you Loomis. I don't like it either, but the online sites for newspapers and magazines charge people (albeit for a nominal fee) to access their archieves. It's not great, but it is understandble.

Besides...if you are paying per chapter for a book, and you start to not like the book, you stop paying for it! Isn't that better than paying for a whole book and not liking it?

-- Xenobia

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Xenobia

As for paying for sites....I am with you Loomis.  I don't like it either, but the online sites for newspapers and magazines charge people (albeit for a nominal fee) to access their archieves.  It's not great, but it is understandble.

Besides...if you are paying per chapter for a book, and you start to not like the book, you stop paying for it!  Isn't that better than paying for a whole book and not liking it?

Well, not all newspaper and magazine sites charge for access to their archives. I know that nearly all of us would like to have 100% free online content 100% of the time, and I understand why that's not possible, but I personally boycott sites that do charge.

I'm not sure that it would be better to stop paying for chapters once you begin to dislike an online "book" than to pay for a whole book and not like it, especially if the online content you're paying for is not downloadable or printable (I dislike reading long works of fiction on a screen). In any case, you have plenty of opportunities to browse a book in a shop before buying, to get a fair idea of whether it's worth your money, and in the event of not liking it after getting down to read it properly, you can always give it away, or use it to support a wonky tableleg, or something;).

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Truman-Lodge

Please please please read over your post before hitting "Submit".
1) Yes, Benson knew his books weren't selling as well as everyone hoped.
2) That would be very difficult to figure out.  I imagine the novelizations sold slightly better though.
3) I'm not sure what the question is.

Then you should do the same also pal ! If the book aren't selling ,why are you and other crying about his being fired! I guess you are part of the eleven people worldwide who purchased his last novel (paperback of course)

[Simon]

Kevin,

I think he was referring to your sentence construction regarding "Submit".

The eleven people were UK based and just for the month of August.

Oh dear.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Jim
OK

1. 11 in August is nationwide. This is a nation of sixty million people. As explained above the figures are juggled about (and I've never understood how they're juggled) so technically it may have been more than eleven BUT the position doesn't change because all books are subject to it. So it still was on a par with the trams and behind the badgers, regardless of what they sold.

2. I picked August because it is - December aside - the biggest book selling month in the UK. In May, according to this scale, The Man with the Red Tattoo sold 377 copies.

3, Which still isn't brilliant - Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire 17,854 copies that month (it sold 36,822 copies in August) A three year old biography of Brian Clough (former British (cough) soccer club manager) sold 412 copies (although admittedly that was in paperback). Never Dream of Dying sold 32 copies (and that was in paperback)

4. But what that probably goes to show is that people who were waiting for the book to come out waited for the book to come out and then it was practically dead in the water after the first month or so. No word of mouth generated.

5. In May 2002 Dr No sold 554 copies.

Thank you for these figures, Jim. Do you have any figures on paperback sales? Any revealing incites there? How about total print run? Or do publishers keep print run figures secret?

[Felix's lighter]

"The novelty of the updates novels - Bond in the modern world - just wore off. The James Bond name, no matter how high it was printed on the dustjackets, didn't go anywhere. Its value is now practically nil."

It's a little disturbing to think that the same people who spent $160 million to see a poorly-marketed Bond film of increasingly questionable quality are the same people who never read books. I guess that's a true testament to what EON has created; DAD rakes in $160 million with MGM barely trying, yet Benson's books can't even be given away. Ladies and gentlemen, observe the dumbing-down of the Bond audience.

[zencat]

Originally posted by Felix's lighter
"The novelty of the updates novels - Bond in the modern world - just wore off. The James Bond name, no matter how high it was printed on the dustjackets, didn't go anywhere. Its value is now practically nil."

It's a little disturbing to think that the same people who spent $160 million to see a poorly-marketed Bond film of increasingly questionable quality are the same people who never read books. I guess that's a true testament to what EON has created; DAD rakes in $160 million with MGM barely trying, yet Benson's books can't even be given away. Ladies and gentlemen, observe the dumbing-down of the Bond audience.

While I think that's a bit cynical (maybe because I was one of those dummies who loved DAD ), I observed something interesting at a Bond event with John Cork that ties in with what you

[Xenobia]

Oh my God Zencat! People reading....that's scary! And God forbid they write something -- now there is a real horror.

Loomis...you are right, not all newspaper / magazine sites charge for access to archieves...but the big ones do.

And it is true, you can always return a book...but that requires the physical exersion of getting up, going to the store, buying the book, sitting down, reading it, not liking it, getting up, going to the bookstore, returning the book.

In other words, I suspect people would enjoy my theory only because it is does not require that much physical action.

-- Xenobia

[Loomis]

I'm sure this also applies to you, Xen, but:

I love books as things I can hold and use in various locations: in bed, on trains, etc. I'd much prefer having a tangible product - and one that doesn't require internet access and a credit card (which we can't assume all Bond fans have) - to the convenience of something that's online 24 hours and doesn't require my leaving home to obtain.

I guess my wider point is that, if the literary Bond will ONLY have further adventures online, and never again on paper, then the literary Bond is dead. In my opinion, anyway, although I acknowledge how ironic it would be if the literary Bond, having become increasingly "niche", was forced into an online-only, "fan-only" existence resulting in its reaching far more readers than is the case with the continuation novels as printed matter available in shops.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

Originally posted by marktmurphy
Ian Rankin anyone? Try his Jack Harvey books.

this is indeed a v sad day for the Literary Bond canon
a few thoughts, however -
Ian Rankin? No! It would be like Hitchcock directing Bond (yes i know Hitch is dead!!)..too different a style. I'm not dissing Rankin, he's one of the best modern writers around, i love his work, it's just his style is totally separate from that of the Bond authors. granted, they all had their own individual style when it came to writing Bond, but very rarely does one find a post-Fleming bond that echoes that Fleming-esque flair (what i'm saying here, very inarticulately, is that although each author found their niche with bond, they were all essentially trying to capture the original essence of Fleming's 007).

i wonder if its possible that some of the fan fiction writers here on CBn could give it a try? or if we have any full time writers on the forums at all (as i don't know everyone, and so don't know what they do as an occupation!) i'm sure we have some very talented writers who have been reading and/or writing bond for some time, and that one of us could take up the mantle.

lastly, don't you think its ironic how the literary bond has (for now) died out, the very thing which made the films a global success?

[Dr Noah]

"lastly, don't you think its ironic how the literary bond has (for now) died out"

The pastche Bond has died...but the original Fleming novels still sell well.

I can't honestly see what the fuss is all about. Bond isn't going to go away just because new books are not being writen about him. Fleming died in '60's but his novels are always going to be around.

[Truman-Lodge]

Originally posted by The Girl With The Golden Gun


this is indeed a v sad day for the Literary Bond canon  
a few thoughts, however -  
Ian Rankin? No! It would be like Hitchcock directing Bond (yes i know Hitch is dead!!)..too different a style. I'm not dissing Rankin, he's one of the best modern writers around, i love his work, it's just his style is totally separate from that of the Bond authors. granted, they all had their own individual style when it came to writing Bond, but very rarely does one find a post-Fleming bond that echoes that Fleming-esque flair (what i'm saying here, very inarticulately, is that although each author found their niche with bond, they were all essentially trying to capture the original essence of Fleming's 007).

Actually, Hitchcock was approached to direct From Russia with Love, which he refused. And I think Ian Rankin would be acceptable too. Did you ever read what Gardner and Benson wrote before Bond, Golden Girl? I wouldn't in my life associate Boysie Oakes with Bond, but there you go...

i wonder if its possible that some of the fan fiction writers here on CBn could give it a try? or if we have any full time writers on the forums at all (as i don't know everyone, and so don't know what they do as an occupation!) i'm sure we have some very talented writers who have been reading and/or writing bond for some time, and that one of us could take up the mantle.

No offense to any writers here, but I don't think they're quite up to scratch. Besides, they'd get the same psychotic hate mail as Benson got. Who would want that?

lastly, don't you think its ironic how the literary bond has (for now) died out, the very thing which made the films a global success?

It hasn't "died", unless you consider what happened to the movies between 1989-1995 a "death" as well.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Truman-Lodge

It hasn't "died", unless you consider what happened to the movies between 1989-1995 a "death" as well.

If "GoldenEye was not a success it would have been the death of cinematic Bond . Look it's sad !! Why not concentrate on what author can revive the literary Bond series. Does any one have any person in mind ? Since Benson was American . Should the next writer be British ?

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
[BSince Benson was American . Should the next writer be British ? [/B]

Nationality isn't really an issue. Another American author, Robert R. McCammon, wrote a WW2 spy story (all be it one with a 'horror' twist) called 'The Wolf's Hour'. Stylistically that book owes a lot to Fleming. So finding a writer who can produce a quality product isn't as problematic as getting IFP to show the needed degree of commitment to the project.

[BONDFINESSE 007]

someone who might write bond and could write bond is sam claney

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Roebuck

Nationality isn't really an issue. Another American author, Robert R. McCammon, wrote a WW2 spy story (all be it one with a 'horror' twist) called 'The Wolf's Hour'. Stylistically that book owes a lot to Fleming. So finding a writer who can produce a quality product isn't as problematic as getting IFP to show the needed degree of commitment to the project.

Well is he . Robert R.McCammon free. Since there is a opening for a writer at Ian Fleming Publications. Look once they (IFP) revamped it website , changed it's name perhaps that was a message the no one took notice off. Also i could care less about the nationality of the next writer , i agree there needs to be more of a marketing push. I never saw one ad in the New York Times Review of Books . For any Benson novel.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

Truman Lodge said "Did you ever read what Gardner and Benson wrote before Bond, Golden Girl?" yes i have, actually.

i knew that about hitch - no wonder he declined!!

i agree that nationality isn't important, although it would be good to have another Brit on board.

[Roebuck]

Originally posted by kevrichardson
Well is he . Robert R.McCammon free.  Since there is a opening for a writer at Ian Fleming Publications.

Well technically he's retired. He never made a terrific livelihood from writing and eventually the pressure of dealing with his publishing house became more hassle than he felt it was worth. Besides, his reputation is almost exclusively based on his work as a horror novelist, so he'd be unlikely to bring much of his fanbase to Bond.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Roebuck

Well technically he's retired. He never made a terrific livelihood from writing and eventually the pressure of dealing with his publishing house became more hassle than he felt it was worth. Besides, his reputation is almost exclusively based on his work as a horror novelist, so he'd be unlikely to bring much of his fanbase to Bond.

Look i am not trying too be sacastic . But do you have any one in mind to replace Benson . I am not one to gloat over a persons problem . I was and still interested in giving him a whirl . As i wrote you could not find a book of his in NYC . Discover one(1) used book store in the upper westside that specialized in paperbacks . It only keep one copy and that was "ZMT" . Which i toyed with buying . Just looked up the Strand bookstore website www.strandbook.com . found only 3 titles. One of them "The Man with Red Tattoo"(2002) . Hey the guy is a great Bond fan . He had the ultimate Bond fan fantasy job , short of writing the screenplay . He it hurts' to see people invest themselves in something . Only to see it falter.