61 replies to this topic

[Loomis]

Have finished ZMT. I enjoyed the Outback sequence. I really liked the idea of Bond cheating death only to find himself stranded in the middle of nowhere (I'm not sure I'd ever seen Bond in that situation before, in the novels or films).

I also found the ending unexpectedly moving. Part of the reason is that I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong and some of ZMT's locations in southern China, including Shenzhen and Guangzhou, around the time of the handover, and was therefore around to witness the "new chapter in the history of Asia, and mankind" that Benson describes.

I felt Benson researched the book well, and admired the way he touched - appropriately lightly - on such issues as the UK's betrayal of the people of Hong Kong and the uncertainty of how the People's Republic would treat its new possession.

If only ZMT had also been the 1997 Bond film, rather than TOMORROW NEVER DIES!

Anyway, it's good to know that Benson has bettered ZMT with his subsequent novels. I'll definitely read them.

[marktmurphy]

I always think of ZMT as his best, probably because it was the first I read, before his mistakes and shortcomings started to irritate me. I won't go back in case I find I hate it now- but the outback sequence is certainly a very nice idea and well executed as I remember.

I've got to say though, the idea put forward earlier in this thread about cooperation between Benson and Purvis/Wade gets my vote if it turns up a book of the quality of Wood's books. These strike a perfect middle ground between fans of the books and the films, which any new Bond books have to do now that Fleming's Bond has become a brand which must offer all of the qualities the films present. Benson recognises this but as of so far has not quite managed it.

Can PurvisWade write prose?

[Simon]

Originally posted by Felix's lighter

I still think, however, that EON and Glidrose need to get together and decide what exactly is involved in the continuity of James Bond, if only for the sake of good storytelling.

While that idea sounds perfect in concept, I think that introducing a third wheel into the film making machine will only confuse and delay matters while three separate parties, Glidrose, Eon and MGM all put their thoughts and wishlists into the pot. Combine this with the product placmement gang and their demands and all of a sudden, the idea that making a film was "comparatively" difficult will almost certainly be dashed.

It will "definitely" be difficult.

If the books had as large a following as the films, then maybe there would be confusion. As it is, the books would appear to be largely ignored so - no confusion. Those that read them will know the contexts; those that don't, don't, and don't care.

[rafterman]

there's no reason to end the literary Bond, it's a seperate entity from the films and has marginally impact on them, especially since it's pretty clear no one but us here know they still publish Bond novels...

[Tehuti 004]

I Bond books are one of the only books that are readable today. But at the rate we are going, the literacy Bond will be dead soon enough.

I am probably one of the few Bond fans who actually read the books. I have some friends, and the say they are Bond fans, I would say to them, "Have you read any of Fleming's books?" and I have heard them reply; "Who's he?".

Unfortunatly, once us lot pass on, so will Bond books. -_-

[marktmurphy]

Originally posted by rafterman
there's no reason to end the literary Bond......it's pretty clear no one but us here know they still publish Bond novels...

Sounds more like a reason to end them to me.

Originally posted by Tehuti 004
the literacy Bond

How ironic.

[zencat]

Shouldn't we as Bond fans be discussing how to revitalize the literary Bond instead of asking for its demise? I find this thread depressing and dangerous. I would be careful what you wish for. Certainly as Bond fans we have good ideas

[General Koskov]

Good point, Zencat, but I think the fact that there is an asking for the demise of the 'literary Bond' (never liked that phrase as it says that the Bond we see on screen if different) says something of the direction Benson et al are taking him.

That's why I came up with my corroboration idea. I don't want the books to end, but I don't wish for them to become a parody of the earlier books. Remember the phrase 'stop while you're ahead'? That's what Glidrose must do before it goes behind.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by zencat
I find this thread depressing and dangerous. I would be careful what you wish for.  

Personally, I'd find it far more depressing and dangerous if we weren't discussing these matters. Isn't that what these forums are for? Besides, I'm sure Raymond Benson has in his time coped with far harsher criticism than anything to be found on this thread. It's something all writers must learn to take in their stride. And I certainly don't believe Glidrose will decide to wind up the series purely on the basis of these posts.

I do not accept that "Calling for the death of the literary Bond is like calling for the end of the film series because they don

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

Originally posted by Tehuti 004
I Bond books are one of the only books that are readable today. But at the rate we are going, the literacy Bond will be dead soon enough.

I am probably one of the few Bond fans who actually read the books. I have some friends, and the say they are Bond fans, I would say to them, "Have you read any of Fleming's books?" and I have heard them reply; "Who's he?".

Unfortunatly, once us lot pass on, so will Bond books. -_-

NOOOOO! i'm not sure i agree. to tie this in with Zencat's post below, this new generation literary Bond audience needs to be grabbed by the shoulders, shaken and stirred to the new wave of post Fleming Bond authors. i have an idea that the makers of Bond should start adapting some of the early Gardners and Bensons for the screen - a good adaptation always has a great potential to make ppl want to read the books (or does it only work the other way around?) - well it works on me, anyway. for example, the first Bond movie i remember seeing was TSWLM and when i read the book, i was amazed to find the 2 totally different, and thats what encouraged me to read more. and the sequence in Dr No when Bond crawls through the pipe to get to Honey - i felt that didn't really come off in the movie.

what i'm saying here is that the literary Bond needn't end with Fleming, or indeed Ray Benson. like the many actors who have played Bond, Roger Moore et al are no Sean Conneries, just as Benson is no Fleming. every post Fleming author has revealed new and different aspects of the Bond persona, and perhaps (for example, in gardners "never send flowers") wrongly referred too much to the Bond movies and not the books. but that doesn't mean there should be an end to the literary Bond - they just need more publicity.

[Blue Eyes]

Unfortunatly, once us lot pass on, so will Bond books.

No way, not with sites like CBn knocking around. I've known that some of the discussion in these forums have seen members read Fleming for the first time. As long as fans come to the films, then a fair percentage will eventually come to Fleming and the other authors.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

plug that site, Blue Eyes!! but yeah ur totally right. I mean, if we can get a whole new generation of fans reading Fleming for the first time, they are likely to discover that indeed the literary Bond doesn't stop with fleming and discover Gardner, Benson et al. , which must be a good thing!!

[zencat]

If Glidrose would ever reprint the Gardners, that is.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

they can't be that bad! plus i've seen them in shops. anyhow, Benson's still going strong. they are sold in mainstream UK bookshops such as Waterstones and Ottakars, but bizarrely not in places like WHSmiths (which reminds me, i was at the WHS in san fransisco - at the airport!! - last yr and they had such a wide range for such a little store!)

[Turn]

I rarely see Bond novels in stores these days or ever see reviews. How are the sales of Benson's books?

I can find the hardback editions when they come out and sometimes when they reach the overstock sales section, but you never see the paperback versions of Bensons at retail stores or at some of the chain stores for that matter, save for the movie adaptions.

The early Gardner releases used to always make the top 10 of the bestseller list, and were readily available throughout the '80s. Benson's titles are hard to find anywhere. Or is it just where I live?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Turn
I rarely see Bond novels in stores these days or ever see reviews. How are the sales of Benson's books?

I can find the hardback editions when they come out and sometimes when they reach the overstock sales section, but you never see the paperback versions of Bensons at retail stores or at some of the chain stores for that matter, save for the movie adaptions.  

The early Gardner releases used to always make the top 10 of the bestseller list, and were readily available throughout the '80s. Benson's titles are hard to find anywhere. Or is it just where I live?

The real reason is that no one but some members of this group reads then . Unlike Garnder 's early books Benson will never be on any ones best sellers list.

[Tehuti 004]

I have not seen any Gardner books in my stores. The only Bond books I have seen are the occassional Fleming and the info sort of books. (Books like The Essential Bond). However I saw the papaerback of DAD when I was last in a shop in Southampton.

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by Tehuti 004
I have not seen any Gardner books in my stores. The only Bond books I have seen are the occassional Fleming and the info sort of books. (Books like The Essential Bond). However I saw the papaerback of DAD when I was last in a shop in Southampton.

All of the Gardner Bond books are in mostly second hand bookstores . most if not all are out of print. Outside of the Fleming's , which are all being re-issued . It just the Benson books , and even they are removed to the off-price section.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

Originally posted by Turn
Or is it just where I live?

well, where do you live? that is, if u don't mind my asking. UK or US?

[kevrichardson]

Originally posted by The Girl With The Golden Gun


well, where do you live? that is, if u don't mind my asking. UK or US?

Northeastern USA, New Jersey . Next to NYC , 15 minutes bye train. I go to all the major second hand bookstores in Manhattan. Strands etc, only the later Gardner books are availble. I have been looking for a copy of "For Special Services". Can not find one hardcover or paperback copy . Did find a copy of OHMSS and Thunderball. And a use paperback of Colonel Sun by Robert Markham (Kingsley Amis) . Most of the local library have a few copies of some of the earlier Gardner novels. Just re-read "license Renewed and Icebreaker , Role of Honor . All the major bookstores , Barnes and Nobles , Tower , Borders, carry only Fleming . especially the paperback re-issues . Some do not carry even carry Benson.

[The Girl With The Golden Gun]

ah i see. i'm always on the look out for extra copies of Gardners and Flemings, so if u like u could send you some out. i've got a few books and videos for sale on CBn forums in the "buy and sell" section , ur welcome to check it out (although the vids might not work, owing to their being PAL format). my grandad also buys and sells books on our local market so i could ask him to help me out.

[Kingdom Come]

I haven't read any of the novels! I can't stand reading fiction - I'm a faction man myself.

[Nixon007]

I hate every novel after Colonel Sun and think that Gardner and Benson are untalented and unworthy to continue the tradition of Fleming. They are "professional" writers, but this means nothing. Their plots are absolutely idiotic and unentertaining. I consider them apocryphal, regardless of what the "official publishers" say. The literary James Bond died with Fleming, but he can live again.

Yes, you heard me right. I think that James Bond can return, in some form at least. Somebody will come along and write some new books, probably unofficially, and they will be worthy of Fleming. I have already had the pleasure of reading some excellent fan fiction which I feel is better than the so-called official Bond series.

Keep searching the web and it will come along, the fanfic to end all fanfics. All I know is that the official dudes will never produce a book to live up to FRWL or LALD. They aren't even close.

Hell, I might even write one myself... but that's no reason to get excited.

[clinkeroo]

Come on, Nixon, they're not all that bad. Certainly they don't approach Fleming, or even Amis, but several of the continuation novels (Nobody Lives Forever or High Time To Kill just to name a couple off the top of my head) are certainly entertaining reads and worth the effort.

[Icephoenix]

I think some fans or critics are a little ignorant when it comes to post Fleming books. "Fleming's were the only Bond books, he was Bond" yadda, yadda, yadda. Well that's too bad, and no reason to call Benson a HACK, which is just a cheap insult. I think even if fleming was reincarnated and started writing the books again, some people would call him a hack, blinded by the fact that Fleming started the books. And 16 books just to out do Fleming? You know this for a fact?. And your obsurd Benson comment (another one).He destroyed the literary Bond? Bull****. Complete bull****. He did far better then Gardner in terms of restoring the character, giving Bond back his tools of the trade, and most importantly - his persona. He kills, has sex, drinks and is bored by it all. That's Fleming's Bond.

[Loomis]

Originally posted by Nixon007

I hate every novel after Colonel Sun and think that Gardner and Benson are untalented and unworthy to continue the tradition of Fleming. They are "professional" writers, but this means nothing. Their plots are absolutely idiotic and unentertaining. I consider them apocryphal, regardless of what the "official publishers" say.  

While I do not believe that Gardner and Benson are untalented (quite the reverse, actually), I have a lot of sympathy with your views, Nixon007. They have both written some very entertaining books (as well as some dogs), but - to paraphrase something Jim once wrote on these forums - I cannot bring myself to see them as continuing something Fleming started. I have particular trouble accepting any connection between Gardner's works and Fleming's (from what I've read so far of Gardner, I get the impression that he would have preferred Bond to have worked for the SAS, not the SIS).

Read, say, "Scorpius", and ask yourself whether you can accept the protagonist as the same chap who had the adventures described in, say, "You Only Live Twice". Doesn't work, does it?

From a purist's point of view, the literary Bond died in the 1960s, and all the king's horses and all the king's men....

[zencat]

Originally posted by Nixon007
I hate every novel after Colonel Sun and think that Gardner and Benson are untalented and unworthy to continue the tradition of Fleming. They are "professional" writers, but this means nothing. Their plots are absolutely idiotic and unentertaining...

Can't agree. I actually think some of the Gardner and Benson continuation novels (like Icebreaker, High Time to Kill, Never Dream of Dying) are better than some of the Fleming novels (like TMWTGG, DAF, Thunderball).

[Loomis]

Originally posted by zencat

I actually think some of the Gardner and Benson continuation novels (like Icebreaker, High Time to Kill, Never Dream of Dying) are better than some of the Fleming novels (like TMWTGG, DAF, Thunderball).  

:eek:

HERESY!



zencat, if you had the choice of taking either either all the Fleming novels or all the Benson novels to a desert island, which collection would you choose? Be honest.

[zencat]

Well...Fleming. But only because I could trade them with the pirates for rum and women.

[Loomis]

LOL!