22 replies to this topic

[The*SPY*]

I think one of the things that made the Daniel Craig movies more believable than previous entries is how beat-up and dirty he got in his movies.  

 

It seemed he spent most of his first three movies with facial cuts, bruising, and bandages. However in SP, despite receiving some beating, he appears as if he didn't get pummeled by Sciara or Hinx.  Even Madeline gets two harsh smacks from Hinx on the train and recovers pretty well.  And how about getting a drill in your head twice!  I figured Bond would be dripping blood after that scene.

 

 

[DaveBond21]

Ha ha, good point, although I was a little tired of seeing him scarred all the time.

[tdalton]

This is definitely one of the (many) problems with Spectre.  

[thecasinoroyale]

Don't get me started on the drilling scene.

 

As you say first, Hinx gives DC a beating worse than any other in his current 4 run, and looks just fine after, the drilling scene makes Blofeld look inept when it shouldn't.

 

All that talk about the crucial points the drill hits, and the after effects affecting sight, memory, balances etc all built up with good drama and nasty VFX, and then after, Bond simply gets up, runs away and has perfect aim to shoot the bad guys. NO after effects at all to make things a little more dangerous in their escape, or having Swann to help him more.

 

That always annoyed me and I feel made Blofeld look like he didn't get ANY pressure points and just wasted time, and made the whole scene pointless. Hell, the torture scene in 'CR' at least had some scenes where he had to recover and focus on character relations, he didn't just get up and run away and shoot people. It made him human.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Yeah, Bond not having holes in his head after the drilling is unrealistic, as is his quick reflex, motor, and visual recovery to make his escape from Blofeld's lair--although that does make it more cinema-friendly.

 

As for Bond not losing his recognition faculties, I have no problem with that. Blofeld said that "if" the drill hits the right spot then Bond will not recognize Madeleine. He did not definitively say that Bond would not recognize her. I simply took it as Blofeld taking another opportunity to psychologically (and physically) torture Bond (and Madeleine for that matter). He was toying with him like a cat with a mouse before eventually going in for the kill.

[Guy Haines]

Yeah, Bond not having holes in his head after the drilling is unrealistic, as is his quick reflex, motor, and visual recovery to make his escape from Blofeld's lair--although that does make it more cinema-friendly.
 
As for Bond not losing his recognition faculties, I have no problem with that. Blofeld said that "if" the drill hits the right spot then Bond will not recognize Madeleine. He did not definitively say that Bond would not recognize her. I simply took it as Blofeld taking another opportunity to psychologically (and physically) torture Bond (and Madeleine for that matter). He was toying with him like a cat with a mouse before eventually going in for the kill.

It looked to me as if Blofeld was about to make sure Bond didn't recognise Madeleine, or anyone else. Forget that drilling into the side of his head - just before the watch exploded, wasn't ESB lining up two needles to puncture Bond's eyes?

As for the Bond/Hinx fight mentioned further up - it doesn't quite chime with the blood, guts and gore scraps of the earlier Craig movies. It was a good one, but you got the impression this was Craig's equivalent of a typical Roger Moore movie scrap - not a drop of blood spilt, not a hair out of place! ;-)

[sharpshooter]

I'd say Bond's body was bruised, though. He was more thrown around the train and charged at, than directly punched on his face, if I recall. 

[RMc2]

 

Yeah, Bond not having holes in his head after the drilling is unrealistic, as is his quick reflex, motor, and visual recovery to make his escape from Blofeld's lair--although that does make it more cinema-friendly.
 
As for Bond not losing his recognition faculties, I have no problem with that. Blofeld said that "if" the drill hits the right spot then Bond will not recognize Madeleine. He did not definitively say that Bond would not recognize her. I simply took it as Blofeld taking another opportunity to psychologically (and physically) torture Bond (and Madeleine for that matter). He was toying with him like a cat with a mouse before eventually going in for the kill.

It looked to me as if Blofeld was about to make sure Bond didn't recognise Madeleine, or anyone else. Forget that drilling into the side of his head - just before the watch exploded, wasn't ESB lining up two needles to puncture Bond's eyes?

As for the Bond/Hinx fight mentioned further up - it doesn't quite chime with the blood, guts and gore scraps of the earlier Craig movies. It was a good one, but you got the impression this was Craig's equivalent of a typical Roger Moore movie scrap - not a drop of blood spilt, not a hair out of place! ;-)

 

 

I think you got it. There's too much Roger Moore in SP. And as much as we love Moore, his style of Bond doesn't belong in the Craig Era. It's a shame Mendes is such a fan, because all the non-Mooreish moments in SF and SP were the best.

[DaveBond21]

You can never have to much Roger! 

[RMc2]

Always after a little Moore

[SecretAgentFan]

I think no other actor mastered what Roger Moore did - not even Craig.

[Gobi-1]

Nobody does it better.

[jaguar007]

yes, SP was the Craig film to give all the fans who felt the series had ventured too far away from "earlier Bond films" what they were looking for. OF course some of Criag's earlier films gave fans who felt the series had ventured too far away from the books and the very early films something they were looking for.

[bonds_walther]

Having rewatched it on Blu-Ray, it really struck me how 'comic-book-ish' this Bond film is. For reasons stated above, such as insta-recovery (ala Wolverine and Deadpool) to shooting down a helicopter with a Walther PPK, this film really does present a far less human James Bond than the other Craig films. It's almost as if this should have been another actor in the role as the tone is not really in keeping with the previous three efforts. Perhaps this is due to him 'finally' being James Bond - we're seeing Craig combining previous Bonds in his own way to create this almost superhero version. Dunno.

Edited by bonds_walther, 26 February 2016 - 04:00 PM.

[sharpshooter]

I think it's important to remember this Bond's timeline. He started out as a killer, but was disturbed by it. The way he glances at Fisher during the sink drowning sequence is a key example. But he became a cold fish, or at least tried to be. Because at the end of CR, he's ready to give it all away for love. "If you do what I do for too long, there won't be a soul left to salvage."

But he's burned by Vesper and throws himself back into work. Every time Bond is burned, the pre-title sequence of SF being another example, he always returns. It's his true calling, even if he wants more in life. So from CR onwards, Bond's soul has been whittled away. Kill after kill. To the point he's the smug, smooth operator of SPECTRE. The Connery/Moore type.

Even though that's the Bond we have, I disagree he's less human. The train sequence with Madeleine evokes Vesper's questioning in CR, and it once again makes Bond consider a life away from the service. To the point he drives away with her at the end, throwing away his gun. But as said, whenever Bond is burned he comes back to duty. So let's see where Bond 25 leads us.

[RMc2]

I think it's important to remember this Bond's timeline. He started out as a killer, but was disturbed by it. The way he glances at Fisher during the sink drowning sequence is a key example. But he became a cold fish, or at least tried to be. Because at the end of CR, he's ready to give it all away for love. "If you do what I do for too long, there won't be a soul left to salvage."

But he's burned by Vesper and throws himself back into work. Every time Bond is burned, the pre-title sequence of SF being another example, he always returns. It's his true calling, even if he wants more in life. So from CR onwards, Bond's soul has been whittled away. Kill after kill. To the point he's the smug, smooth operator of SPECTRE. The Connery/Moore type.

Even though that's the Bond we have, I disagree he's less human. The train sequence with Madeleine evokes Vesper's questioning in CR, and it once again makes Bond consider a life away from the service. To the point he drives away with her at the end, throwing away his gun. But as said, whenever Bond is burned he comes back to duty. So let's see where Bond 25 leads us.

 

Nicely said

 

I agree that he's still emotionally human in SP, but physically he's superhuman - that remarkable recovery from Blofeld's drills is particularly egregious. I can't help but feel that happens so quickly because Sam Mendes wanted to rush on to the MI6 finale, instead of having a lengthy and 'realistic' setpiece in Morocco.

 

Still, I like that Craig breaks quite a sweat in the PTS, and is very stunned and nearly killed by Hinx on the train. And, of course, he's knocked out by a well-placed pistol butt before the torture scene.

[SecretAgentFan]

I´m still preparing myself for watching SPECTRE without thinking what could have been.

 

But you brought up the very valid point of CraigBond recovering from the torture without any effect of it.  I would have loved to see a really battered and disoriented Bond escaping with Madeleine´s help instead of gunning everybody down himself.   The scene on the train in which Madeleine demonstrates how well she handles a gun would have been the perfect set-up for that.  And if they had escaped to London Blofeld could have been hot on their trail, mercilessly taking on the safe house and kidnapping Madeleine, bringing her to the old Mi6 building.

 

Ah, well...

[RMc2]

I´m still preparing myself for watching SPECTRE without thinking what could have been.

 

But you brought up the very valid point of CraigBond recovering from the torture without any effect of it.  I would have loved to see a really battered and disoriented Bond escaping with Madeleine´s help instead of gunning everybody down himself.   The scene on the train in which Madeleine demonstrates how well she handles a gun would have been the perfect set-up for that.  And if they had escaped to London Blofeld could have been hot on their trail, mercilessly taking on the safe house and kidnapping Madeleine, bringing her to the old Mi6 building.

 

Ah, well...

 

That would have been excellent! Again, an opportunity missed. 

 

Hope your preparations go well...

[Harmsway]

That parachute landing in QUANTUM was worse than the torture recovery in SPECTRE, because at least SPECTRE is trying to capture some of that classic Bond surrealism and dream logic.

The problem with the torture scene isn't that it's unrealistic, is that it's a missed opportunity. It would be much more interesting to have Bond suffer some side effects.

[bonds_walther]

That parachute landing in QUANTUM was worse than the torture recovery in SPECTRE, because at least SPECTRE is trying to capture some of that classic Bond surrealism and dream logic.

The problem with the torture scene isn't that it's unrealistic, is that it's a missed opportunity. It would be much more interesting to have Bond suffer some side effects.

How about something like temporary memory less? Bond being used in an assassination attempt on M (to allow Nine Eyes to go through unchallenged)? I agree, plenty of missed opportunities.

:0)

[SecretAgentFan]

That would have been great: a finale with Bond being Blofeld´s puppet until his feelings for Madeleine allow him to remember.  That would have been a perfect fit for Blofeld showing Bond that he is either a puppet for Mi6 or for Spectre - and then Bond turning the tables proving that he is no one´s puppet at all, deciding to quit for Madeleine.

[sharpshooter]

I agree that he's still emotionally human in SP, but physically he's superhuman

On the emotional side of things, I like the moment when Bond and Madeleine are driven to Blofeld's crater. Madeleine says "I'm scared, James." Bond holds Madeleine's hand in support, and continues looking straight ahead without expression. Almost to say, "I am too, but we'll face it together." They were driving off into the unknown. 

[Pierceuhhh]

I'd be fine with Bond's recovery if Blofeld had simply been drilling into Bond's pain neurons or whatever. Why include dialogue about memory loss if you're not even going to pretend to use it? Such baffling decisions!