30 replies to this topic

[BrettElectric]

Hey everyone!

 

I'm new here

 

A bit of background: My brother, his wife, my wife and I have been watching the Bond fims in order of release for about a year now. So awesome. Finally we're up to the Craig films - we just watched Casino Royale last night.

 

But I just don't get how the whole 'account number and password' thing is supposed to work, and I can't see it explained anywhere on the internet to my satisfaction. I saw a very interesting discussion on this forum on another issue from CR, so I thought I might post here and see if anyone can help me.

 

I can't figure out why Le Chiffre tortures Vesper for the account number.

Le Chiffre says: "I want the money. Miss Lynd will give me the account number, if she hasn't already. So all I need from you is the password. The password, please."

 

Why does he need her account number? The money is still in escrow, in the safekeeping of Monsieur Mendel of the Basel Bank, Switzerland. As we see later in the film, Mendel plans to come to Bond, ask for his password and the desired bank account number, and then transfer the money.

 

The first problem is a minor one - even if Le Chiffre learns Bond's password and Vesper's account number, he can't really approach Mendel and ask for the money. Mendel will want Bond to enter the password, not someone else, right?

 

But more than that, why would Le Chiffree want Vesper's account number? If he was somehow able to get Mendel to transfer the money by using Bond's password, why would he want to enter Vesper's account number? If he did that, the money would go to Vesper, not to him. He should just torture Bond for his password, and supply his own preferred bank account number.

 

 

I don't get it.

 

Does anyone know what's going on there?

Edited by BrettElectric, 23 November 2015 - 07:23 AM.

[Dustin]

Hello and welcome, BrettElectric!

Been a bit since I last watched CR, so I may not be spot on with every detail but I think it went something like this:

an account was set up by HM Treasury in the name of Bond with Mendel's bank. Vesper knows the account number, Bond holds the password. Not every transaction has to be handled personally; any order reaching Mendel's bank with the correct set of account number and password will be taken care of. Le Chiffre just pulls a smokescreen when he talks about getting information from Vesper by torture, he either already knows the account number or Vesper will give it to him on White's orders.

When Mendel later asks for directions where to send the money he gets them from Vesper, with Bond verifying the transaction. Bond is unaware she diverts the funds. And Mendel just doesn't care, his clients have their reasons to send their money wherever they want.

The real deal breaker in the scheme is how Le Chiffre used Vesper lying in the middle of the road to send Bond crashing. Chances would have been either Vesper or both would have ended up as strawberry jam after that. Bond might have guessed that everything Vesper knows was already known to Le Chiffre at that point, lest he would not have risked losing her.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Hello and welcome, BrettElectric!

Been a bit since I last watched CR, so I may not be spot on with every detail but I think it went something like this:

an account was set up by HM Treasury in the name of Bond with Mendel's bank. Vesper knows the account number, Bond holds the password. Not every transaction has to be handled personally; any order reaching Mendel's bank with the correct set of account number and password will be taken care of. Le Chiffre just pulls a smokescreen when he talks about getting information from Vesper by torture, he either already knows the account number or Vesper will give it to him on White's orders.

When Mendel later asks for directions where to send the money he gets them from Vesper, with Bond verifying the transaction. Bond is unaware she diverts the funds. And Mendel just doesn't care, his clients have their reasons to send their money wherever they want.

The real deal breaker in the scheme is how Le Chiffre used Vesper lying in the middle of the road to send Bond crashing. Chances would have been either Vesper or both would have ended up as strawberry jam after that. 

Not that many chances, I think, knowing that Bond was a very good driver, and that overall, he was a driving a really expensive and (hence) very safe Aston Martin.

[BrettElectric]

Thanks for the replies!

 

So when did Vesper start working for Quantum? Did they get to her when they killed Le Chiffre at the end of the torture scene? Or did they get to her before that?

I don't think it would have been before the poker game, because Quantum wouldn't know who was going to win. Or if they were sure that Bond would win, and so they got to Vesper before the game, why would Vesper refuse the extra $5 million buy-in? If they were betting on Bond winning, they would want him to keep playing.

 

But I still don't get why Le Chiffre wanted/needed the account number.

Even if the transaction with Mendel could be handled impersonally, if Le Chiffre supplied the British Treasury account number, along with Bond's password, this would only result in the money being deposited in the British Treasury account - not his desired outcome.

[tdalton]

They got to Vesper before the events of Casino Royale. She was forced to work on their behalf before the events of the film, thanks to her relationship with Yusef. I would imagine that Guy Haines, or someone working under him, was responsible for putting Vesper on the mission with Bond, once it crossed his desk that M was going to put Bond in the poker game in an effort to bankrupt and ultimately take custody of Le Chiffre.

[hoagy]

Your question has been thoroughly answered, so now I can offer the following:  It was just an excuse to torture Bond.   ; >

 

Here's my question, though:  Why did not the producers include the scarring of Bond's hand ?  In the book, the Soviet agents carve two initials into the back of Bond's hand, using the 2 Russian initials known in "the community" to mean "death to spies."  OK, so the Cold War is over as of the timeline of CR the (more recent) film, but it still could have been used.

 

I supposed the torture which was included was enough, and it might not have added much, and may well have interrupted the dramatic flow.  Oh, well.  It remains a "Fleming tibit" which may yet be used in a later film !

[BrettElectric]

That's interesting tdalton!

 

But if Vesper was working for Quantum all along, and Quantum's plan was to get the poker winnings from Bond, via Vesper, why did Vesper not give Bond the extra $5 million to stay in the game?

Perhaps Quantum were having a bet both ways? Maybe they were happy for Le Chiffre to win, but they had a contingency plan (Vesper) just in case Bond won.

And so at the time when Bond dropped out of the game, it looked certain that Le Chiffre would win, so they had no need for their contingency plan. But then when Bond unexpectedly came back with the $5 million from the Americans and won, Quantum were forced to re-activate their contingency plan (Vesper). OK, that makes sense.

 

But I was thinking about the account number plot device while I was at work, and I realised what the core of my issue is.

It's not actually important when Vesper started working for Quantum, and it's not important whether or not Le Chiffre would be allowed to take the winnings from Mendel using Bond's password, even though he wasn't Bond.

 

The question at the core of the issue is, was the account number where the winnings were to be deposited supplied at the beginning of the poker tournament, along with the password? Or was the account number only given after the tournament, once Mendel contacted the winner? At the beginning of the tournament we only see Bond entering his password - we don't see Vesper entering an account number. She may have, but it's not shown.

Mendel's instructions are: "The money will remain in escrow until I return and the winner of the contest enters his or her password into the encryptor, whereupon the entire sum will be wired to any bank account in the world you nominate. Mr. Bond? We proceed alphabetically. Please be so kind as to enter a password of your choice."

This seems to be saying that the banck account will be nominated when Mendel contacts the winner after the tournament. But again, it's not conclusive.

 

Scenario 1: Each player enters a password at the beginning of the contest, and then if they win, they will be asked to re-enter the password, and then supply a bank account number for the winnings to be wired to.

Problem: If this was the case, why would Le Chiffre torture Vesper for the account number that she is planning on giving Mendel? Who cares? All Le Chiffre needs is Bond's password, and then he can enter his own bank account number.

 

Scenario 2: Each player enters a password at the beginning of the contest, AND nominates their desired bank account number. If they win, they will be asked to re-enter the password, AND the same account number, wherupon the money will be wired to that account.

Problem: In this scenario, Le Chiffre WOULD need to know Vesper's account number in order to activate the transfer, but the money would then go into Vesper's account - obviously not what he wants.

 

One explanation might be that Le Chiffre was bluffing when he told Bond that he was extracting the account number from Vesper. But this doesn't make sense. Bond is not a complete imbecile. His mission, which he was resolute in purusing, was to win the money and keep it from Le Chiffre. Surely Bond took at least passing notice of the rules for claiming the winnings. Bond would have known the conditions for the money transfer, and would have known that Vesper's account number was useless to Le Chiffre. Surely Bond would have questioned Le Chiffre's actions when Le Chiffre told him that he was trying to extract the account number from Vesper? "Dude, that's stupid - why do you want her account number? Are you planning on depositing your stolen winnings back into her account?"

 

Another explanation might be that Le Chiffre wnated the winnings to end up in Vesper's account, so that Vesper could withdraw them and hand them over to Quantum, as she did in the end. But this doesn't work for two reasons. Firstly, he wasnted to get the funds himself, in order to remain useful to Quantum and his creditors. Secondly, if he wanted the money to end up in Vesper's account, there was no reason to kidnap her and Bond - the money was always going to end up in Vesper's account anyway.

 

It doesn't make sense! 

[Hockey Mask]

The answer is...if you look too closely they all have plot holes. Not just SPECTRE and even the golden boy Casino Royale.

[tdalton]

That's interesting tdalton!
 
But if Vesper was working for Quantum all along, and Quantum's plan was to get the poker winnings from Bond, via Vesper, why did Vesper not give Bond the extra $5 million to stay in the game?

Quantum's plans were not to get poker winnings from Bond. They weren't concerned with the money, outside of the fact that it was stolen from a client that they had set up with Le Chiffre. Quantum wanted Le Chiffre to win to settle up the debt with the warlords he stole the money from. That plan changed once Bond won the poker tournament. Quantum's original plan would have been for Le Chiffre to win, recoup the money from him, and then they probably would have executed him anyway.

[Jim]

In the other corner of the room, there's a man getting his nadgers mashed up real bad.

[MajorB]

Right. Once Bond lost the tournament, Le Chiffre could repay the Africans, solving Quantum's problem of an unsatisfied customer. If Vesper had let Bond buy back in, there was the chance he could turn around and win--which of course was exactly what happened. So withholding the 5M would be to Quantum's advantage.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Right. Once Bond lost the tournament, Le Chiffre could repay the Africans, solving Quantum's problem of an unsatisfied customer. If Vesper had let Bond buy back in, there was the chance he could turn around and win--which of course was exactly what happened. So withholding the 5M would be to Quantum's advantage.

Quantum's advantage or was it SPECTRE's, actually??

[BrettElectric]

Right, so Vesper stealing the money from Bond was always Quantum's Plan B. Plan A, and the preferred outcome for Quantum, was for Le Chiffre to win the tournament.

 

Anyway, thanks for all your ideas guys!

[hilly]

Hockey Mask

Posted 24 November 2015 - 11:17 AM

The answer is...if you look too closely they all have plot holes. Not just SPECTRE and even the golden boy Casino Royale. 

 

 

Quite right. Martin Campbell cheerfully acknowledged that having Judi Dench as M in Casino Royale made absolutely no sense whatsover and completely screwed up the timeline.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

"Completely screwed up the timeline" to make CR a prequel to DN; however (no matter what Campbell could say) CR is a reboot, hence Judi Dench has to be playing another M.

[AMC Hornet]

Since Bond killed Obanno in the stairwell, thereby cancelling the debt, Le Chiffre should have been indebted to him.

[Dustin]

Actually...you know how it is with huge sums of money? Much like with a Patek Philippe watch. You don't really own it, you keep it for the next generation.

So the only thing cancelled with Obanno was his Men's Health subscription.

[Mr. Arlington Beech]

Obanno was part of a terrorist organisation, thus after his death, the "No.2" of that group would have come after that money too.

[AMC Hornet]

Granted, but without intending to Bond bought Le Chiffre some time while Obanno's people regrouped (sort of like Red Grant saving Bond's life so he could kill him later).

 

Ungrateful wretch with his knotted rope.

 

Anyway, the account number wasn't entered until Vesper did it at the clinic, and it wasn't the HMG one the Treasury would have provided her with. Why it wasn't one provided by Quantum/Spectre I can't say, except that it wouldn't have required her running all over Venice and inciting the climactic gunfight.

 

But telling Bond that he'd torture the account number out of Vesper was part of Le Chiffre's breaking Bond's resolve - it doesn't have to make sense.

[larrythefatcat]

Hockey Mask


Posted 24 November 2015 - 11:17 AM
The answer is...if you look too closely they all have plot holes. Not just SPECTRE and even the golden boy Casino Royale.


Quite right. Martin Campbell cheerfully acknowledged that having Judi Dench as M in Casino Royale made absolutely no sense whatsover and completely screwed up the timeline.

Indubitably: she plays Barbara Mawdsley in the Brosnan movies and Olivia Mansfield in the Craig films.

[stromberg]

Granted, but without intending to Bond bought Le Chiffre some time while Obanno's people regrouped (sort of like Red Grant saving Bond's life so he could kill him later).

 

Ungrateful wretch with his knotted rope.

 

Anyway, the account number wasn't entered until Vesper did it at the clinic, and it wasn't the HMG one the Treasury would have provided her with. Why it wasn't one provided by Quantum/Spectre I can't say, except that it wouldn't have required her running all over Venice and inciting the climactic gunfight.

 

But telling Bond that he'd torture the account number out of Vesper was part of Le Chiffre's breaking Bond's resolve - it doesn't have to make sense.

Brings us to another thing: Vesper entered the account number, Bond entered the password, thus the money should have been transferred at this moment to whatever bank account. Seems like this was a Basel Bank account, too (by pure coincidence, of course), because Mendel can see what happens with the money, even days or weeks later...

[AMC Hornet]

My brain! My brain!!

[byline]

 

Granted, but without intending to Bond bought Le Chiffre some time while Obanno's people regrouped (sort of like Red Grant saving Bond's life so he could kill him later).

 

Ungrateful wretch with his knotted rope.

 

Anyway, the account number wasn't entered until Vesper did it at the clinic, and it wasn't the HMG one the Treasury would have provided her with. Why it wasn't one provided by Quantum/Spectre I can't say, except that it wouldn't have required her running all over Venice and inciting the climactic gunfight.

 

But telling Bond that he'd torture the account number out of Vesper was part of Le Chiffre's breaking Bond's resolve - it doesn't have to make sense.

Brings us to another thing: Vesper entered the account number, Bond entered the password, thus the money should have been transferred at this moment to whatever bank account. Seems like this was a Basel Bank account, too (by pure coincidence, of course), because Mendel can see what happens with the money, even days or weeks later...

It's interesting. In the exchange Bond has with Mendel, during Bond's phone call from Venice, Mendel doesn't mention the Basel Bank. Here's the exact dialogue, first from the introductions prior to the poker game, and then Bond's phone call to Mendel from Venice:

 

*****

 

Monsieur Mendel here represents the Basel Bank, Switzerland, holding the stakes.

 

You have each deposited $10 million buy-in. A further buy-in of $5 million can be made by electronic transfer.

 

The money will remain in escrow until I return, and the winner of the contest enters his or her password into the encryptor, whereupon the entire sum will be wired to any bank account in the world you nominate.

 

*****

 

Mr. Mendel? I'm having trouble accessing the funds in my account.

 

It was transferred to the account number your company gave us, Mr. Bond. It appears the funds are being withdrawn as we speak.

 

Where?

 

The Venice branch, of course. St. Mark's Square.

[tdalton]

Mendel was behind it all from the very beginning.  He's the mastermind behind it all and Oberhauser is just a patsy leading SPECTRE/Quantum.  Mendel will make his triumphant return to the franchise in Bond 25, roaming around an abandoned castle and poisonous garden wearing a suit of armor. 

 

The film will end with a Saw-like montage ending where we see where Mendel was during the events of Quantum of Solace, Skyfall, and SPECTRE.

Edited by tdalton, 29 November 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[stromberg]

Oh boy, I'm glad the franchise isn't in the hands of George Lucas... 

[Dustin]

We'd have the 'George-Lucas-original-vision' ©™ Edition of DR NO now, with the cgi-octopus fight and Dent having a 15-shot Browning with plenty of ammo left...

[Odd Jobbies]

We'd have the 'George-Lucas-original-vision' ©™ Edition of DR NO now, with the cgi-octopus fight and Dent having a 15-shot Browning with plenty of ammo left...

 

Must admit, though, i'd love to see that Connery vs. Octopus scene

 

 

RE the topic, there may well be a plausible explanation to the machinations of the script, but having to debate it in such a way does to my mind make it, if not a plot-hole, then poor writing.

Good writing can be complex, but never complicated.

 

The account number/password device is without doubt - as Hoagy  pointed out above - a complicated contrivance that is there simply to lead to the infamous CR torture scene.

 

Somewhere along the line they either crossed-out/cut-out some expository dialogue that illuminates this device, or they just said 'sod it', the audience won't care, they just want to see Craig's balls whipped.

[Dustin]

The problem is, in the book Bond is the only one holding the money, Vesper's actual role is superfluous in the book already. She reports to the opposition on activities of the section of the Service concerning themselves with the Soviet Union. That she already caught wind of the Royale operation was a lucky coincidence. That the Service sent her, without any good reason - or even the shadow of a pretense - to Royale to observe is one of the book's weak spots. Vesper is only there so Bond can do a little daydreaming - and then to work as bait for him.

Not even the Russians would have her on the spot when she's much more valuable back in London. CR's script actually improves on her role as giving that kind of money away to a bachelor with expensive tastes without any kind of control would ask for trouble in any case. Now she's got a reason to be there, and some impact on the story apart from being a pinup.

[Odd Jobbies]

Very good point Dustin - Fleming didn't exactly nail that either. So credit to the script for attempting to address it, but sadly, as the very existence of this thread may show, it was a pretty much botched attempt.

 

Though in truth it may well be that there was a perfectly well fleshed out explanation of this device in one draft or another, which was dropped due to it's overly expository nature.

 

Or, just as plausible, it was down to the hack-handed way that films are these days made by committee; often a bad, unnecessarily destructive note from a talentless, but powerful Exec needs to be acted on in order to avoid acting on a far worse note in order to keep that Exec. appeased. So perhaps a casualty filmmaking politics - who knows!

[Dustin]

Just a guess but I think it's probable the matter was addressed in greater detail but was cut at some point. It's not a really bad hole, just a bit of thin fabric showing under the lights. Not as bad as Goldfinger explaining his plan with a scale model to a group of people who soon will be dead.*

*By the by, this could have been explained as Goldfinger's test to see whether the gas is as deadly as promised. Maybe it was and just got cut...