20 replies to this topic

[Joyce Carrington]

SPECTRE - whether or not to make the obvious choice

 

I came to SPECTRE with extremely low expectations. While I considered Skyfall to be an improvement over Quantum of Solace (let us not speak of that one again), it still left me very disappointed. Don’t get me wrong, I thought there were very strong elements to Skyfall – maybe that was why I was so let down. To me, it felt like there was the potential for something great, but it was never actualised.

 

So I was very surprised to find, upon leaving the cinema, that I actually... liked... SPECTRE. I wouldn’t say I love it – not the way I do Casino Royale – but I just felt very relieved: it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be, in fact I had a really good time with it.

 

The ending is crucial to that feeling, however. The fact that Bond chose NOT to kill Blofeld and walk away from the job for a woman was very satisfying, almost invigourating.

 

I’m not even sure why.

 

Yes, Bond has chosen not to kill before (damn it, here I go bringing up Quantum of Solace again, but to me it was the only worthwhile scene in the whole damn film).

 

Yes, Bond has left the job for a woman before. But both those times the woman in question was killed before the end of the film. The fact that they chose to cut to the end credits BEFORE Blofeld’s inevitable revenge sinks the Bond/Swann ship, just felt... refreshing? I think it was probably the boldest choice the creative team could have made within the Bond formula, and I’m so glad they did.

 

Now, that said... do I personally ship Bond/Swann? No. I don’t really see why THIS is the woman Bond wants to leave it all behind for (again). When she told Bond she loved him, I rolled my eyes – the moment felt hugely unearned. I don’t hate Madeline, but there just wasn’t enough time to really develop that relationship.

 

As for Blofeld, I was pretty on board for the whole ‘jealous brother’ backstory. Or at least, it didn't bother me. If anything, I liked the callbacks to the other Craig films – making everything connected helped to give Blofeld the weight that he needed.

 

Stray observations:

• Loved the PTS. The helicopter fight above the square filled with thousands of innocents actually had me tense – that could have gone horribly wrong
• Loved the MI6 team element: M, Q, Moneypenny and Bond against the world
• LOVED the Vesper video tape. Moments like these have me sitting up in my chair, dramatically interesting questions: Was Bond going to watch it and what would that do to him? And then having him decide almost immediately to cast it aside, that says a lot about his character. Beautiful.
• Liked seeing Dench one last time, pleasant surprise.
• Liked seeing Bond’s apartment
• Liked seeing Moneypenny’s personal life
• Liked the humour
• Liked seeing Mr. White again
• The Bellucci interrogation/seduction scene had me rolling my eyes – it felt like an item on a checklist of ‘Things We Suppose James Bond Needs To Do’
• I don’t remember much of the plot, except that it incorporated some very current topics – points for that. Aside from that, it probably didn’t make a whole deal of sense every step of the way. BUT it made more sense than Skyfall’s plot, which was one of the things that ruined that film for me. So... yay?

All in all, bring on the next Bond film – for the first time in years, I’m actually interested to see where this goes. I mean, obviously Bond is going to come back to the job, but it’s the HOW that intrigues me. The most obvious choice is to have Blofeld escape custody, kill Madeline and have Bond seek revenge... but the choices made at the end of SPECTRE have given me hope that maybe the creative team won’t go for the most obvious thing.

[Surrie]

We've been discussing the ideas of Bond 25 for some time and personally I wouldn't like it to be based purely on a revenge story - this has been overworked, especially in Craig's era!! There are alot of ideas floating around here that Swann could potentially become the Tracey that Bond lost at the end of OHMSS, more so now that Blofeld has made a return and is still alive. 

 

There are definitely some very exciting options the creative team could pursue, and I hope they don't go with the revenge story. IMO I would like to see Swann return and develop that relationship some more (which is what SPECTRE lacked). It would be a fitting end to Craig's Bond if they explored his romantic life further and perhaps mirrored some of the past films and Flemings older work to close this chapter of Bond's life off.

 

Then for Bond 26 draw a line in the sand with Bonds human and romantic side (leave that with Craig's Bond), and allow his films to stand alone in the James Bond Universe and on a different timeline. Our new actor can potentially pick up where Brosnan left off - that way we see Bond as we have known him after the last 50 or so years, but we've also had that insight into his life with Craig's movies. 

[Dustin]

Welcome back, Joyce! Glad you liked SPECTRE, sorry to hear SKYFALL felt like a let-down for you. With me it's more like the other way around.

Anyway, the only sure thing seems to be that Bond will be back - and that Blofeld will be, too. I just hope that means a return for Waltz. Actually I would love if that was the first casting announcement...

[Surrie]

Waltz 100% needs to return as Blofeld! Otherwise, I'd rather they left the character until he decided he would come back for another. 

[Dustin]

The problem with replacing Waltz is not just to find an actor willing to take over. Or one with a solid diabolical presence. It would have to be just that mix of charming bestiality he can unfold at will. And that is a very rare thing without dropping off the cliff to parody.

[SecretAgentFan]

Replacing Waltz would feel very weird to me for an era that desperately struggles to keep continuity.

[stromberg]

Ah, the lovely Miss Carrington. Good to see you're still around. And glad that you liked SPECTRE.

[Joyce Carrington]

Thanks for the ever warm welcomes, guys. 

 

I hope both Waltz and Seydoux return, but I especially hope the character of Madeline returns. The notion that they might not bring her back at all is horrible! Yes, they COULD take the Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol route and tell (not show) the audience that things with Swann didn't work out, but that would be such a shame. I hope they stick to their guns and find an interesting way of having that relationship end, one that gives both characters some opportunities to show different shades.

[Hockey Mask]

If EON didn't sign Waltz for a multi picture deal with that script shame on them.

[DaveBond21]

Thanks for the ever warm welcomes, guys. 

 

I hope both Waltz and Seydoux return, but I especially hope the character of Madeline returns. The notion that they might not bring her back at all is horrible! Yes, they COULD take the Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol route and tell (not show) the audience that things with Swann didn't work out, but that would be such a shame. I hope they stick to their guns and find an interesting way of having that relationship end, one that gives both characters some opportunities to show different shades.

 

I don't see Bond's and Swann's relationship as any stronger than Bond's and Natalya's at the end of Goldeneye, and we didn't expect or need her to return in TND. We didn't even need a story about why they went their separate ways.

 

As Paris Carver says "This job of yours - it's murder on relationships..."

 

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[Joyce Carrington]

 

Thanks for the ever warm welcomes, guys. 

 

I hope both Waltz and Seydoux return, but I especially hope the character of Madeline returns. The notion that they might not bring her back at all is horrible! Yes, they COULD take the Mission Impossible: Ghost Protocol route and tell (not show) the audience that things with Swann didn't work out, but that would be such a shame. I hope they stick to their guns and find an interesting way of having that relationship end, one that gives both characters some opportunities to show different shades.

 

I don't see Bond's and Swann's relationship as any stronger than Bond's and Natalya's at the end of Goldeneye, and we didn't expect or need her to return in TND. We didn't even need a story about why they went their separate ways.

 

As Paris Carver says "This job of yours - it's murder on relationships..."

 

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I agree with the Bond/Natalya analogy, BUT Bond never quit his job for her. He DOES quit his job for Madeline. SPECTRE tries to explain why, but IMHO doesn't fully succeed. I would at least hope that the next film succeeds in explaining why Bond chooses to leave Madeline and return to the job. Anything else would feel like a copout to me.

[Revelator]

I sincerely hope Waltz does not return as Blofeld and that he never shows up in a Bond film again. He gave a limp noodle of a performance, a masterpiece of autopilot acting.

Fleming's no-nonsense original Blofeld had a malevolent charisma that could "almost suck the eyes out of your head." This would have required an actor with a disturbing, enigmatic screen presence--someone audiences would feel uncomfortable around--but Waltz projects nothing but self-satisfied camp. His Blofeld is an epicene cartoon. And giving him the relics made campy by Dr. Evil--white cat, Nehru jacket, eye scar--further sabotages the film's attempt to resurrect Blofeld as a credible villain. For me, that is the greatest flaw of an otherwise decent movie.

For the next film I hope they take a page from history and cast a completely different looking actor, with the explanation that Blofeld has escaped and had plastic surgery. You could even have a scene reminiscent of that from the novel of OHMSS, with Bond doubting his own eyes that the new Blofeld is the same as the one he knew.

Edited by Revelator, 19 November 2015 - 11:18 PM.

[plankattack]

 And giving him the relics made by campy by Dr. Evil--white cat, Nehru jacket, eye scar--further sabotages the film's attempt to resurrect Blofeld as a credible villain.

 

While I'm not as down on Waltz (for me it's script rather than actor at fault) it felt to me like a missed opportunity to "reboot" the series' lead villain. I could've taken any of the 'relics" individually as a nod to the fan-base, but ultimately using them all was throwing away the chance to create a fresh, and more dangerous, mythology.

 

IMHO, the series has never got Blofeld right. Even if you have no interest in reading the books, I find it hard to believe that a croaking hunchback of a man who seems about 5ft 3, a slightly effete though debonair man with a cigarette holder, or someone offering up a delicatessan, could in any way be a worthy adversary for 007, so the need to retreat to some combination of those staples is a curious creative decision, if not downright lazy one.

 

Of course if in fact they're siblings, it would appear that Dr Evil is the perfect aspiration....    

[FlemingBond]

you know Revelator that's actually an interesting thought to me. other's will disagree. 

have Blofeld look different in the next movie, make it a mystery whether it's the same man or not.

[Guy Haines]

I sincerely hope Waltz does not return as Blofeld and that he never shows up in a Bond film again. He gave a limp noodle of a performance, a masterpiece of autopilot acting.
Fleming's no-nonsense original Blofeld had a malevolent charisma that could "almost suck the eyes out of your head." This would have required an actor with a disturbing, enigmatic screen presence--someone audiences would feel uncomfortable around--but Waltz projects nothing but self-satisfied camp. His Blofeld is an epicene cartoon. And giving him the relics made campy by Dr. Evil--white cat, Nehru jacket, eye scar--further sabotages the film's attempt to resurrect Blofeld as a credible villain. For me, that is the greatest flaw of an otherwise decent movie.
For the next film I hope they take a page from history and cast a completely different looking actor, with the explanation that Blofeld has escaped and had plastic surgery. You could even have a scene reminiscent of that from the novel of OHMSS, with Bond doubting his own eyes that the new Blofeld is the same as the one he knew.

The facial scar and everything else that happened to the villain by the film's end does at least give the producers/ writers some leeway. If Christoph Waltz is re-cast in Bond 25 the scar could stay or go. If someone else is cast the scar is the reason for plastic surgery - the perfect get out clause for the film makers hiring someone else to play ESB. And as pointed out - and I've mentioned this times many - Blofeld was a chameleon in the books. Casting a new actor would be consistent with Ian Fleming's use of Blofeld.

[tdalton]

 

I sincerely hope Waltz does not return as Blofeld and that he never shows up in a Bond film again. He gave a limp noodle of a performance, a masterpiece of autopilot acting.
Fleming's no-nonsense original Blofeld had a malevolent charisma that could "almost suck the eyes out of your head." This would have required an actor with a disturbing, enigmatic screen presence--someone audiences would feel uncomfortable around--but Waltz projects nothing but self-satisfied camp. His Blofeld is an epicene cartoon. And giving him the relics made campy by Dr. Evil--white cat, Nehru jacket, eye scar--further sabotages the film's attempt to resurrect Blofeld as a credible villain. For me, that is the greatest flaw of an otherwise decent movie.
For the next film I hope they take a page from history and cast a completely different looking actor, with the explanation that Blofeld has escaped and had plastic surgery. You could even have a scene reminiscent of that from the novel of OHMSS, with Bond doubting his own eyes that the new Blofeld is the same as the one he knew.

The facial scar and everything else that happened to the villain by the film's end does at least give the producers/ writers some leeway. If Christoph Waltz is re-cast in Bond 25 the scar could stay or go. If someone else is cast the scar is the reason for plastic surgery - the perfect get out clause for the film makers hiring someone else to play ESB. And as pointed out - and I've mentioned this times many - Blofeld was a chameleon in the books. Casting a new actor would be consistent with Ian Fleming's use of Blofeld.

 

 

While I entirely agree regarding the idea that they could recast Blofeld and not have it be an issue for those of us who are aware of his literary depictions, I do wonder if the public at large would go for it.  If they cast someone else as Blofeld in Bond 25, and especially if Craig returns as Bond, I get the feeling that there would be a lot of people who would be confused or who just wouldn't go for the fact that someone else was playing the part.

 

 Part of that, I think, comes down to the fact that all of our entertainment these days seems to be rather heavily continuity-based.  People expect to see certain things and, a lot of the time, arcs seem to be planned out in advance (obviously, however, not with Bond).  If EON decides that they want to cast someone else as Blofeld, going with the explanation that he's chameleon-like and/or the plastic surgery route to fix any injuries sustained at the end of SPECTRE, then I'm all for it, but I do have my reservations about whether or not the average moviegoer will go for such an idea.

[Professor Pi]

Plus the actor would have to be comfortable following Waltz footsteps.  Audiences will suspend disbelief if they want to see that actor in the role.  For example, Ben Kingsley.  I think he'd make a great Blofeld.

[chrisno1]

NIce review Joyce. Thank you and where have you been?

[Joyce Carrington]

Not as excited as I once was about Bond, I guess. I still love this place but my visits have become rare.

[PrinceKamalKhan]

 

I don't see Bond's and Swann's relationship as any stronger than Bond's and Natalya's at the end of Goldeneye, and we didn't expect or need her to return in TND. We didn't even need a story about why they went their separate ways.

 

As Paris Carver says "This job of yours - it's murder on relationships..."

 

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Exactly. Or Bond and Domino's at the end of TB or Bond and Kissy's at the end of YOLT, etc. I actually see Bond and Kara's relationship in TLD as stronger than Bond and Madeleine's in SPECTRE and Bond and Natalya's in GE and whatever happened to the two of them was left to our imagination as it should be IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with the Bond/Natalya analogy, BUT Bond never quit his job for her. He DOES quit his job for Madeline. SPECTRE tries to explain why, but IMHO doesn't fully succeed. I would at least hope that the next film succeeds in explaining why Bond chooses to leave Madeline and return to the job. Anything else would feel like a copout to me.

 

 

I thought they left Bond's departure at the end of SPECTRE a bit ambiguous to me. Since we didn't see him specifically give his resignation to M as in OHMSS, LTK and CR, I thought it could be interpreted 1 of 2 ways: he resigns or is just taking a leave of absence to rest and recuperate with Madeleine. I figure they shot it that way since we don't know for sure yet whether SPECTRE is Craig's finale in the role. If indeed SPECTRE is Craig's finale as Bond, I do not want EON to reboot the series again with the next actor. Blofeld(whether played by Waltz or not) needs to return either way. As for Madeleine, perhaps they could include a brief reference to what happened to her like in Batman Returns when Bruce Wayne briefly references Vicki Vale but that would be more than enough for me.

[DaveBond21]

 

 

I don't see Bond's and Swann's relationship as any stronger than Bond's and Natalya's at the end of Goldeneye, and we didn't expect or need her to return in TND. We didn't even need a story about why they went their separate ways.

 

As Paris Carver says "This job of yours - it's murder on relationships..."

 

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Exactly. Or Bond and Domino's at the end of TB or Bond and Kissy's at the end of YOLT, etc. I actually see Bond and Kara's relationship in TLD as stronger than Bond and Madeleine's in SPECTRE and Bond and Natalya's in GE and whatever happened to the two of them was left to our imagination as it should be IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with the Bond/Natalya analogy, BUT Bond never quit his job for her. He DOES quit his job for Madeline. SPECTRE tries to explain why, but IMHO doesn't fully succeed. I would at least hope that the next film succeeds in explaining why Bond chooses to leave Madeline and return to the job. Anything else would feel like a copout to me.

 

 

I thought they left Bond's departure at the end of SPECTRE a bit ambiguous to me. Since we didn't see him specifically give his resignation to M as in OHMSS, LTK and CR, I thought it could be interpreted 1 of 2 ways: he resigns or is just taking a leave of absence to rest and recuperate with Madeleine. I figure they shot it that way since we don't know for sure yet whether SPECTRE is Craig's finale in the role. If indeed SPECTRE is Craig's finale as Bond, I do not want EON to reboot the series again with the next actor. Blofeld(whether played by Waltz or not) needs to return either way. As for Madeleine, perhaps they could include a brief reference to what happened to her like in Batman Returns when Bruce Wayne briefly references Vicki Vale but that would be more than enough for me.

 

 

These are my thoughts exactly. The language was deliberately ambigious. Q asks Bond "I thought you'd gone", not "Hey, you don't work here anymore!". And without a clear resignation scene, I don't see it as Bond leaving the service at all.

 

It was indeed shot in a way in case it is Craig's last. The casual movie goer will not remember the last scene of SPECTRE, when they enter the cinema in November 2018.

 

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