9 replies to this topic

[tonyvenhuizen]

When I'm watching a Bond movie I watch for four common tropes:
1. This time, it's personal.
2. Bond goes rogue.
3. Traitor in MI6.
4. Bond girl is Bond's equal.

Whenever one of these is included, the pre-movie publicity plays it up - even though all have been used many times.

None of them are bad but if a movie includes more than one or two, it starts to seem a little lazy or unoriginal.

[hoagy]

After so many films, over so many years, for so many audiences -- many of whom were not around for earlier films -- and having gone through all the books and most of Fleming's material, it is difficult NOT to repeat not merely these tropes, but plots.  They've been recycling plots since they before Connery wrapped it up the first time !  The terrific accomplishments made in the Craig films have been the high quality of production/direction/performance and the use of original storylines, sequences, scenes and moments, some of which evoke wonderful earlier Bond moments.  Some fans complain about the evocative moments, but I think most fans appreciate them.  Furthermore -- younger fans are unaware and simply enjoy it all anew !

[Guy Haines]

But how many times have these tropes been used?

"Bond going rogue" - there's a case for saying the whole of the Daniel Craig canon has featured that. Killing instead of capturing the bomber in CR. MI6 going after Bond in QoS. Bond's three month bender in SF. Much of the new film we've just watched from events in Mexico to Austria - only when Bond gets to Morocco does the home team realise he's on to something, and even then M says to leave him to it.

The "personal" angle - again through much of the Craig era - death of Vesper, seeking closure and answers, protecting M from Silva's own personal agenda, and the link between Bond and villain in SPECTRE - though a lot less was made of it than I expected. Of course we had it in DAD and LTK aand the girl's motivation in FYEO.

MI6 traitor - least used I'd say. Silva in SF. Bodyguard in QoS. Dryden in CR. Miranda Frost in DAD. Trevelyan in GE.

Bond's equal - Jinx? Wai Lin? Among the bad girls, the likes of Xenia Onnotopp and May Day? Octopussy - the song lyric says "we're two of a kind."

Just typing those out, what I've noticed is how recent these tropes are, I think. I can't think of any that might have cropped up in a 1960s Bond film, 1970s or even early 1980s, although I'd be happy for Cbn members out there to point some out to me. Up until these "tropes" the most common were;

1) event set up for Bond to investigate - usually but not always in PTS.

2) "Go forth on your mission 007" from M

3) Obligatory flirting with Moneypenny on way in or out of M's office followed by;

4) visit to Q's workshop;

5) encounter with "girl one" - often revealed to be either a wrong 'un or sacrificial lamb or wrong 'un who dies;

6) first encounter with villain usually in civilised surrounds, sizing each other up;

7) encounter with girl two either damsel in distress or "Bond's equal"

8) encounter with villain, henchman or both - latter attempts to kill Bond, fails miserably;

9) inside villain's lair - where villain explains plan to our hero and girl two;

10) Bond in peril with girl but escapes and foils villain's plan or;

11) Bond returns to villain's base with allies to take out villain and co

12) mission accomplished - Bond and girl two fall into each other's arms unless;

13) henchman returns for one last go at Bond, which again fails miserably, allowing Bond and girl to carry on smooching.

There you have it - a "bakers dozen" of Bond tropes ;-)

[hoagy]

SPECTRE SPOLIER ALERT (at the end of this observation)

 

For a while, they maintained a "trope" -- and I do NOT meant that in a negative fashion at all --  which I enjoyed dearly -- ending the film in or on the water (though the skipped it in GF, the first non-T Young directed film).  In fact, I'd be quite happy to see them return to it.

 

   by the way:  CR (1954)...nope. Indoors.

DN  In the boat on the ocean

FRWL  In the boat pulling away from the canals of Venice

GF deviated Under the parachute, but just after jumping out of plane which went down over the water

TB  On the rescue float on Biscayne Bay, though lifted up from there by an airplane.  The "wettest" Bond ever so no suggesting the ending deviated.

YOLT  On the float on the ocean, with the submarine rising beneath

   by the way:  CR (1967) deviated -- not that it was that producer's "trope" -- in heaven

OHMSS  deviated The road is along the coast, if I recall correctly, but...

DAF  On the boat -- the very big one (cruise ship)

LALD  deviated, though the train is running through the spooky bayou country

TMWTGG  On the junk in the bay

TSWLM  In the small marine escape spheroid, scooped up by one of HM larger naval vessels

MR  deviated, even though one might consider space the biggest of our oceans

FYEO  In the ocean, skinny dippin'

    by the way: NSNA  In the pool (with Kim Basinger !)

OP  On the barge

AVTAK  In the shower...not quite hitting the mark

TLD  deviated...the last shot is of a fountain, but Bond is inside a building with his sweetie

LTK  In a swimming pool

GE  deviated...in a field with a bunch of US Marines, with a freeze-frame image at the end and that awful closing theme...not the best way to end an otherwise terrific film

TND  Back to YOLT-style -- on the raft, being rescued...damnable slow-motion...

TWINE  deviated, even though the final scene it starts with a look out the window at the bay

DAD  deviated, though the spot on the cliff overlooks the sea

CR  deviated, though the penultimate scene has Bond on a yacht, and the last one has him at Mr. White's waterside home, outdoors

QOS  deviated....walking away in the snow does not count as "on the water" though, literally, of course, it is on frozen water

SF  deviated, in M's office

SPECTRE  SPOILER ALERT...a dry ending, though they are on a bridge over the Thames...

[tonyvenhuizen]

Just typing those out, what I've noticed is how recent these tropes are, I think. I can't think of any that might have cropped up in a 1960s Bond film, 1970s or even early 1980s, although I'd be happy for Cbn members out there to point some out to me.

 

I agree - these tropes are far more common in recent movies. From DN to OHMSS I don't think any of these four tropes appear even once.  (A few really weak cases - I don't think the murder of the Masterson sisters in Goldfinger makes it particularly "personal" for Bond).

 

Arguably, the PTS in DAF is meant to portray Bond seeking Blofeld after Tracy's death.  That's "personal," but it never directly addressed in the film.

 

Rosie Carver in LALD is a "traitor in the ranks."

 

The mid-70s brought about the first "Bond's equal" Bond girls - Anya in TSWLM, Holly Goodhead in MR, and Octopussy.  FYEO has a traitor in the ranks - Kristados is thought to be an MI6 informant but turns out to be the villain.

 

The big turning point is LTK - it arguably has all four tropes - I think the only film that does.  There is a traitor who betrays Leiter (not within MI6 but a traitor to the "good guys).  Bond clearly goes "rogue" to revenge Leiter - that also makes it "personal."  The Bond girl is a CIA agent and is presented as being his "equal."  

 

They've been a lot more common ever since.  GE is "personal" because of 006.  TND has an "equal" in Wai Lin.

 

The Purvis-Wade era is the golden age for the tropes.

 

DAD is 3/4 - Frost is a traitor, Jinx is an "equal," and Bond goes "rogue" after being grounded by M.  (The latter plot point has become almost obligatory).

 

CR - Bond goes rogue in the Madagascar chase and when he goes to the Bahamas and Miami.  Obviously Vesper is a "traitor in the ranks."

QOS - It's "personal" because of Vesper.  Bond goes rogue again after M grounds him (again).  The "traitor" in the ranks happens early on with Mr. White's interrogation scene.

SF - Obviously "this time its personal" again - protecting M and defending MI6.  I don't think Bond never really goes rogue - he just goes "off the grid" for a while after his supposed death.

SPECTRE - "C" is the traitor in the ranks.  Bond goes "rogue" again after M grounds him, again.  I guess most people would say "this time it's personal" but I really wouldn't.  Blofeld's motivations are personal.  I think Bond it motivated by trying to stop the bad guys, not by the personal tie.

[plankattack]

I think the assertion that "Bond goes rogue" is really one that's overplayed by us as fans. By my standards, Bond has only gone rogue (in that it's a key plot point in the story) four times - LTK, DAD, QoS, and SP. 

On all the other occasions - eg, Bond killing the bomber in Madagascar - Bond has done his "own thing" or made a decision that his bosses don't agree with. That's not Bond going rogue. Ultimately if every decision Bond makes has to be met by M saying "yes, good job, I would have done it" then the stories would have absolutely no dramatic tension, and the central character would have a professional career arc as exciting as a mid-level accountant or window-cleaner (sorry CBnrs who are accountants or window-cleaners - I myself am merely mid-management...!!!!    )

 

While the crux of LTK is Bond quitting and getting his own revenge, it's very different to ignoring M and drafting in Draco to attack Piz Gloria in OHMSS, I don't think we're moaning "Oh, here we go again - Bond going rogue!"
 

The appeal of Bond is of someone who does his own thing, rather than a subservient company man. His independence is his appeal, which is very different from "going rogue" which I agree has been a key plot twist recently, but not the constant trope which so many of us want to see the back of for awhile moving forward.

[tonyvenhuizen]

I think the assertion that "Bond goes rogue" is really one that's overplayed by us as fans. By my standards, Bond has only gone rogue (in that it's a key plot point in the story) four times - LTK, DAD, QoS, and SP. 

On all the other occasions - eg, Bond killing the bomber in Madagascar - Bond has done his "own thing" or made a decision that his bosses don't agree with. That's not Bond going rogue. Ultimately if every decision Bond makes has to be met by M saying "yes, good job, I would have done it" then the stories would have absolutely no dramatic tension, and the central character would have a professional career arc as exciting as a mid-level accountant or window-cleaner (sorry CBnrs who are accountants or window-cleaners - I myself am merely mid-management...!!!!    )

 

While the crux of LTK is Bond quitting and getting his own revenge, it's very different to ignoring M and drafting in Draco to attack Piz Gloria in OHMSS, I don't think we're moaning "Oh, here we go again - Bond going rogue!"
 

The appeal of Bond is of someone who does his own thing, rather than a subservient company man. His independence is his appeal, which is very different from "going rogue" which I agree has been a key plot twist recently, but not the constant trope which so many of us want to see the back of for awhile moving forward.

 

Yeah I basically agree with this - it is sometimes a matter of degree.  Sometimes M gives Bond "leave" with a wink - that happened in MR.  OHMSS was like that too.  M wants plausible deniability.

 

I agree with your four:  LTK, DAD, QOS, and SP.

 

I think I would add CR.  You have a point on Madagascar - he just exceeded his orders.  After Madagascar, though, M pretty explicitly grounds 007, and he ignores her and follows his investigation to the Bahamas.  When M finds out, she is not pleased - she goes there personally and gives him that tracking implant.

[tdalton]

I'm not sure that I'd say that it was Bond that went rogue in Quantum of Solace, but rather it was his employers bailing on him before the job was complete, leaving him on his own to finish the job. None of what Bond himself does in that film really speaks to an agent gone rogue. Even when he escapes MI6 custody, he doubles back in order to speak to M before he leaves the building.

[graric]

 

I think the assertion that "Bond goes rogue" is really one that's overplayed by us as fans. By my standards, Bond has only gone rogue (in that it's a key plot point in the story) four times - LTK, DAD, QoS, and SP. 

On all the other occasions - eg, Bond killing the bomber in Madagascar - Bond has done his "own thing" or made a decision that his bosses don't agree with. That's not Bond going rogue. Ultimately if every decision Bond makes has to be met by M saying "yes, good job, I would have done it" then the stories would have absolutely no dramatic tension, and the central character would have a professional career arc as exciting as a mid-level accountant or window-cleaner (sorry CBnrs who are accountants or window-cleaners - I myself am merely mid-management...!!!!    )

 

While the crux of LTK is Bond quitting and getting his own revenge, it's very different to ignoring M and drafting in Draco to attack Piz Gloria in OHMSS, I don't think we're moaning "Oh, here we go again - Bond going rogue!"
 

The appeal of Bond is of someone who does his own thing, rather than a subservient company man. His independence is his appeal, which is very different from "going rogue" which I agree has been a key plot twist recently, but not the constant trope which so many of us want to see the back of for awhile moving forward.

 

Yeah I basically agree with this - it is sometimes a matter of degree.  Sometimes M gives Bond "leave" with a wink - that happened in MR.  OHMSS was like that too.  M wants plausible deniability.

 

I agree with your four:  LTK, DAD, QOS, and SP.

 

I think I would add CR.  You have a point on Madagascar - he just exceeded his orders.  After Madagascar, though, M pretty explicitly grounds 007, and he ignores her and follows his investigation to the Bahamas.  When M finds out, she is not pleased - she goes there personally and gives him that tracking implant.

 

Casino still isn't exactly going rogue- M tells him to go 'stick his head in the sand somewhere', and then seems mildly annoyed (at best) when he starts hacking into MI6 files to continue the investigation...he's acting independantly of MI6, but he doesn't get his movements restricted/ suspended/ 00-status revoked like LTK/ DAD/ QoS/ SP.

(It's much closer to the end of OHMSS where he goes behind M's back to take out Blofeld, than it is to any of the times he has gone rogue.)

Tdalton, I'd say that in QoS while Bond is still more or less following his mission, when he explicitly refuses to come in to debrief and is disavowed by MI6 he definetly becomes a rogue agent (especially as his reasons for continuing the mission are at least partially personal.)
(Because I'd say a key difference between when Bond is acting independantly, and when he is acting rogue, is that when he is acting independantly he doesn't explictily disobey M's orders....He goes on 'holiday'/ takes 'two weeks leave', sometime at M's request....Whereas in LTK/DAD/ QoS/ SP he is given explicit orders to go to London/ Stay in London/ has his 00 status suspended/ or revoked, and chooses to go on with his mission regardless.)

[tonyvenhuizen]

Casino still isn't exactly going rogue- M tells him to go 'stick his head in the sand somewhere', and then seems mildly annoyed (at best) when he starts hacking into MI6 files to continue the investigation...he's acting independantly of MI6, but he doesn't get his movements restricted/ suspended/ 00-status revoked like LTK/ DAD/ QoS/ SP.

(It's much closer to the end of OHMSS where he goes behind M's back to take out Blofeld, than it is to any of the times he has gone rogue.)

Tdalton, I'd say that in QoS while Bond is still more or less following his mission, when he explicitly refuses to come in to debrief and is disavowed by MI6 he definetly becomes a rogue agent (especially as his reasons for continuing the mission are at least partially personal.)
(Because I'd say a key difference between when Bond is acting independantly, and when he is acting rogue, is that when he is acting independantly he doesn't explictily disobey M's orders....He goes on 'holiday'/ takes 'two weeks leave', sometime at M's request....Whereas in LTK/DAD/ QoS/ SP he is given explicit orders to go to London/ Stay in London/ has his 00 status suspended/ or revoked, and chooses to go on with his mission regardless.)

 

 

Yeah I'm having trouble on CR.  I think you are right.  A clear "going rogue" example is LTK or QOS, where Bond defies an explicit order.  The other end of the spectrum is OHMSS or MR, where Bond takes "two weeks leave" and M wants plausible deniability.

 

CR is sort of in the middle.  Here is the transcript of what M says:

 

 

Any thug can kill. I want you to take your ego out of the equation and to judge the situation dispassionately. I have to know I can trust you, and that you know who to trust. And since I don't know that, I need you out of my sight. Go and stick your head in the sand somewhere and think about your future. Because these bastards want your head. And I'm seriously considering feeding you to them. And Bond don't ever break into my house again.

 

She doesn't explicitly suspend him or prohibit further action, like it LTK or QOS.  But there is also not a "wink and a nod" like MR or OHMSS.  

 

And - importantly - when Bond again hacks into M's computer from the Bahamas, she is surprised and irritated to find that he is there, but does nothing to ground him or pull him in at that point.

 

So in the end I agree - it's a close case but he's not "going rogue."