Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Spectre of Disappointment


30 replies to this topic

#1 Harmsway

Harmsway

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 13293 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 03:08 PM

Sam Mendes’ SPECTRE boasts one truly exceptional moment. It is not the much-ballyhooed opening sequence, an invigorating sequence set during Mexico’s Day of the Dead festival. No, it is one of the film’s rare grace notes, a brief moment of relief from the overplotted onslaught of the film’s two hours and thirty minutes. The freshly-widowed Lucia Sciarra (the radiant Monica Bellucci), knowing that assassins are coming to kill her, walks through her gorgeous Italian home, puts on some opera, prepares herself a drink, and walks out to her pool to accept her fate with dignity. Bond soon saves her, and the plot machinery once again kicks into high-gear, but it’s the only moment in SPECTRE that has any humanity.

 

This comes as something of a keen disappointment, given that Mendes’ previous Bond outing, Skyfall, had many more such keenly-observed, human moments. But Skyfall was, plotwise, a much slighter picture. Coming after the enormous success of Skyfall, SPECTRE carries the weight of higher expectations , and has been settled with a considerably more ambitious arc that promises to reunite agent 007 with his greatest nemesis: the sinister SPECTRE and its iconic leader, Ernst Stavro Blofeld.

 

The trajectory of the Daniel Craig era of Bond has painted Bond as a fundamentally tragic, damaged figure. Casino Royale, Quantum of Solace, and Skyfall sees Bond as the product of a series of tragedies—the death of his parents, the death of Vesper, the death of M—all of which have hardened him into a killer and denied him a potentially more fulfilling life. SPECTRE attempts to offer Bond a happy ending of sorts, and in the story arc that Mendes sketched out with SPECTRE’s various screenwriters, Bond reckons with the ghosts of his childhood, of his great failed romance, and of the death of his mentor.

 

Each of those ideas gets a subplot of its own. Bond’s childhood is evoked in his conflict with Blofeld, here reimagined as Bond’s foster brother. Bond’s romance with Vesper finds an echo in his romance with Madeleine Swann. Bond further faces the ramifications of M’s death both by responding to her orders—delivered from beyond the grave—and by overcoming the sinister forces that seek to lay ruin to MI6 (the ruined façade of the old MI6 headquarters looms over many of the film’s sequences, a metaphorical reminder of M’s departure). That’s a lot of plot for any film, and the unfortunate thing is that the three strands each seem to choke the other out for attention.

 

The Blofeld storyline has been structured around Bond’s recognition of his own past, but is written in such a careless way: Bond seemingly never cares about the connection, and all the important beats of the mystery are indifferently-written and directed interludes between larger set-pieces. The opening title card boasts that “the dead are alive,” but nothing here suggests that same ghostly power. In characterization, Blofeld feels confused: he’s the traditional villain, but with a wholly extraneous origin story attached.

 

The core romance with Madeleine Swann feels like little more than a series of bullet points. Where previous Bond films, On Her Majesty’s Secret Service and Casino Royale, took their romances seriously and attempted (at least in part) to structure the story around them, the romance here is relegated to a handful of too-brief scenes that cannot possibly carry the weight. It doesn’t help that Lea Seydoux and Daniel Craig do not have instantly-perceptible chemistry, so they are unable to fill in the gaps that left by the film.

 

The worst of the three storylines, involving the impending demise of old MI6 and the rise of a new surveillance state, lacks any tension or surprise, and largely plays out through very rote scenes involving the MI6 “home team” (M, Moneypenny, and Q). Bond somewhat comes into play during the film’s limp climax at the old MI6 headquarters, but he never feels intimately involved in the fight, even after Blofeld is revealed to be behind it all.

 

Director Sam Mendes, working with editor Lee Smith, moves through all of this material relentlessly, to the point where none of it carries any weight. Even the action setpieces, with all their glorious stuntwork, fall flat (excluding the opening sequence, which is admittedly fun, even if it, too, is too-tightly edited). Even the worst Bond films are typically capable of a few truly great moments that linger in the mind, but SPECTRE appears and vanishes in a flash, all of its moments mixing into a blur.

 

The one element that remains impeccable is Craig himself. SPECTRE finally allows Craig’s Bond the freedom to enjoy himself, and Craig seems to relish the opportunity, giving us a Bond who thrives on the exhilaration provided by danger. If Craig does not return for Bond 25, SPECTRE has given us just enough of Craig to be satisfied.



#2 Dustin

Dustin

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5786 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 04:06 PM

Thank you for this review, Harmsway. It reminds me of one of my favourite moments in SPECTRE, this very atmospheric scene of Bellucci.

Strangely, I think there is actually very little plot here, Bond going from Mexico to Rome to Austria (two stops there) to Morrocco (likewise two stops) and finally London. But the events at the respective stops for me didn't really add up to much in terms of story. And the riddle - what riddle there was - was practically solved by the moment Bond recognised Oberhauser in Rome; everything was already out in the open by then, just as the Nine Lies scheme was practically exposed from the moment Denbigh opened the door to M's office.

By the by, did anybody notice M merely identified himself as 'M - 00-section'? As if this M was no longer supposed to head the SIS and Bond's whole Service was now the 00-section.
Well, just an aside...

#3 Harmsway

Harmsway

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 13293 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 04:53 PM

Strangely, I think there is actually very little plot here, Bond going from Mexico to Rome to Austria (two stops there) to Morrocco (likewise two stops) and finally London. But the events at the respective stops for me didn't really add up to much in terms of story. And the riddle - what riddle there was - was practically solved by the moment Bond recognised Oberhauser in Rome; everything was already out in the open by then, just as the Nine Lies scheme was practically exposed from the moment Denbigh opened the door to M's office.

Indeed. There's a whole lotta plot, but very little story. I would have minded that less if I'd found the various scenes compelling on their own terms, but as directed and edited, there's a lot of ho-hum stuff here.

By the by, did anybody notice M merely identified himself as 'M - 00-section'? As if this M was no longer supposed to head the SIS and Bond's whole Service was now the 00-section.
Well, just an aside...

Yes, this is because MI6 and MI5 are merging, with C as their head. So Mallory has, in effect, been demoted.

#4 Dustin

Dustin

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5786 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 05:07 PM

Oh yes, I entirely forgot about the merger, sorry...

#5 deth

deth

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2651 posts
  • Location:Berlin, Germany

Posted 08 November 2015 - 05:31 PM

Sam Mendes’ SPECTRE boasts one truly exceptional moment. It is not the much-ballyhooed opening sequence, an invigorating sequence set during Mexico’s Day of the Dead festival. No, it is one of the film’s rare grace notes, a brief moment of relief from the overplotted onslaught of the film’s two hours and thirty minutes. The freshly-widowed Lucia Sciarra (the radiant Monica Bellucci), knowing that assassins are coming to kill her, walks through her gorgeous Italian home, puts on some opera, prepares herself a drink, and walks out to her pool to accept her fate with dignity. Bond soon saves her, and the plot machinery once again kicks into high-gear, but it’s the only moment in SPECTRE that has any humanity.

 

 

I also found that to be one of the standout parts. It was also the part that I felt was closest to a Fleming-like sequence and characterization in the film.

 

There was one other section that added some much needed humanity though... in Morocco. When they discover the secret room, Bond picks up the tape of Vesper's interrogation... and Craig plays that moment so perfectly... with just a hint of regret and hesitation... that the feeling of CR comes flooding back for just a brief glimpse (I would have enjoyed a reference to Vesper's piano theme here). It's a shame that Craig turns into Pierce Brosnan by the time he escapes from Blofeld though.

 

The personal connection Bond has to Blofeld... being foster brothers... is unbelievable. Unbelievable because they copied it from... Austin Powers. There are no words.



#6 Harmsway

Harmsway

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 13293 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 06:26 PM

I also found that to be one of the standout parts. It was also the part that I felt was closest to a Fleming-like sequence and characterization in the film.
 
There was one other section that added some much needed humanity though... in Morocco. When they discover the secret room, Bond picks up the tape of Vesper's interrogation... and Craig plays that moment so perfectly... with just a hint of regret and hesitation... that the feeling of CR comes flooding back for just a brief glimpse (I would have enjoyed a reference to Vesper's piano theme here). It's a shame that Craig turns into Pierce Brosnan by the time he escapes from Blofeld though.

That was a nice touch, to be sure. It's one of the only "callback" moments that has any weight.

 

The personal connection Bond has to Blofeld... being foster brothers... is unbelievable. Unbelievable because they copied it from... Austin Powers. There are no words.

It's unbelievable, sure. I could buy it as a thematic expression of the story had the film actually made something of it. The idea seems to have been to make Oberhauser into a living spectre, haunting Bond from his past. But that never pans out.



#7 FlemingBond

FlemingBond

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 610 posts
  • Location:Phoenix, Az U.S.

Posted 08 November 2015 - 06:53 PM

i think it would have made it unbelievable enough if Oberhauser was just his own character. to make him Ernst Stavro Blofeld on top of that i just.... :angry:



#8 deth

deth

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2651 posts
  • Location:Berlin, Germany

Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:01 PM

i think it would have made it unbelievable enough if Oberhauser was just his own character. to make him Ernst Stavro Blofeld on top of that i just.... :angry:

 

 

I have no problem with that as apparently the name comes from his mother's side (in this film). It wouldn't have been right to have the head of SPECTRE be anyone else, really.



#9 Matt_13

Matt_13

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5969 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 November 2015 - 09:52 PM

Yeah I'm definitely okay with the way they handled Blofeld. And I agree with the above sentiment that the most emotional point in the film was Bond finding Vesper's interrogation tape. Beautifully subtle acting on Craig's part that conveys everything we need to know. The rest I more or less agree with you Harms. A big disappointment. Hopefully this will be the final straw that will result in an overhaul of the writing team.



#10 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:00 PM

The family connection was always a concern for me, yet ultimately how it played out didn't damage the our perception of Bond in the way that it might. Unfortunately for me, it really undermined the introduction of Blofeld, a character the series has never really handled with due attention, whether it be Charles Gray, or a nameless voiceover selling a delicatessen.

I listened to a podcast (I think some guys called B & S at the Movies linked via rottentomatoes - to give them appropriate credit), where the climax was described as the "villain threatening to blow up an already blown-up building, adorned with photocopies of people Bond's known, including his enemies." Ok - it's "amusing" observation from a podcast - and yet in a strange way it again is a demonstration of how the series has mishandled the best villain that they inherited. The backstory didn't undermine Bond (as I'd feared) - it completely turned Blofed from evil genius into neurotic stalker.

As for the Rome sequence as a whole, it's reflective of the film in general. The scene arrives, there isn't much set-up other than "Bond has to go there to find such and such," Bellucci, a wonderfully atmospheric meeting, and then a strangely undramatic car chase. And then we're off to the next place, thanks to some DNA. The meeting itself - a lot of subtitles (a technique to emphasize importance normally), that isn't exposition for the plot. We know they're villains, we know it's the major villain. Yet we sit in on a couple of pages of dialogue without really learning anything that will propel our enjoyment of the film. No-one around the table is of consequence, why did Hinx kill that guy, who is Hinx. Absolutely nothing that either prods us or answers our questions, other than, "doesn't this all feel classic Bond?"

Emblematic of the film as whole, IMHO. Style, for sure, substance ignored (even though there clearly is enough there to mould into something).

#11 Hockey Mask

Hockey Mask

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1027 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:25 PM

The building was wired to blow up (implode). The threat was of Madeline being held in there.

#12 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:50 PM

The building was wired to blow up (implode). The threat was of Madeline being held in there.


Well, their podcast was called the "B & S at the Movies" or something like that :)

#13 Vauxhall

Vauxhall

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10744 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 09 November 2015 - 12:19 AM

Nicely written, Harms, although I am sorry you didn't particularly enjoy it.

I get the perception of limited chemistry between Bond and Madeleine, but what did you make of Lea Seydoux? On each of my three viewings, I've become increasingly transfixed by her performance. It's subtle but a real highlight for me.

#14 Harmsway

Harmsway

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 13293 posts

Posted 09 November 2015 - 01:52 AM

I think Lea Seydoux is a marvelous actress poorly served by Lee Smith, who doesn't have a good sense for dramatic rhythms.



#15 Pam Bouvier

Pam Bouvier

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 790 posts
  • Location:California

Posted 09 November 2015 - 02:50 AM

I have to admit I Ieft the theater thinking Skyfall had a definite edge over Spectre. I was surprised when my husband said he felt the exact opposite.

 

The difference between us is that I have read the books and I was really hoping for a little more continuity.

 

Blofeld is Bond's foster brother?? Really?  Maybe I could have rolled with that if they had acknowledged Fleming's canon that Bond, at some point after he is orphaned, was raised by his maiden aunt Charmain Bond.

 

They did such a nice job in CR in using what Fleming had left behind. I was really looking forward too that when I found out they were bringing SPECTRE and Blofeld back.

 

I still enjoyed the movie but found these omissions disappointing.

 

I also agree that the relationship between Dr. Swann and Bond felt rushed.  A real shame too.

 

And the end... I don't know.  It just felt odd that just as 007 and the crew were going to deal with "C" and try to save the world from Spectre's evil plot Dr. S. decides to dump Bond...really? Has this woman ever heard the phrase "bad timing"?   It just felt odd and poorly written.

 

Seeing a remake or something equivalent to OHMSS with an established Bond has been on my Bucket  List for awhile. I  hope if the next movie goes where many of us seem to think it's been set up to go, that it's done with a little more care.

 

 

 

 



#16 dirtymind

dirtymind

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 152 posts

Posted 09 November 2015 - 04:56 AM

Indeed. There's a whole lotta plot, but very little story.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth. Every "important" moment in the film is there to serve a plot point, not to tell a story.



#17 S K Y F A L L

S K Y F A L L

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6889 posts
  • Location:CANADA

Posted 09 November 2015 - 05:40 AM

Could have Bond found Mr. White from the start then?....



#18 Fan

Fan

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 68 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 09 November 2015 - 06:32 AM

 

The personal connection Bond has to Blofeld... being foster brothers... is unbelievable. Unbelievable because they copied it from... Austin Powers. There are no words.

 

 

The film, which from the title I thought would be something designed to finally do SPECTRE and Blofeld of the books (or indeed the menacing presence of the early films) justice, can be summed up with that line, really.

 

It is essentially an attempt to do the campiest elements of the series, with none of the humour or charm.



#19 Vauxhall

Vauxhall

    Commander

  • Executive Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10744 posts
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 09 November 2015 - 11:12 AM

Could have Bond found Mr. White from the start then?....

 

Possibly, although he wouldn't have realised he was relevant to this apparently new organisation.

 

It did show that MI6 obviously gave up on worrying about arresting Mr White after he previously escaped, as they seemed to know he was now in Altaussee, according to Moneypenny's information.


It is essentially an attempt to do the campiest elements of the series, with none of the humour or charm.

 

I've seen this a lot, but don't really get it. Which bits do you have in mind?


Edited by Vauxhall, 09 November 2015 - 11:12 AM.


#20 seawolfnyy

seawolfnyy

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4763 posts
  • Location:La Rioja

Posted 09 November 2015 - 01:29 PM

I kind of agree with many of the complaints about Spectre. While I enjoyed the film immensely, several things just didn't work for me:

 

1. Blofeld's backstory. I would rather he be angry at Bond for foiling their plans with Le Chiffre and Quantum rather than just holding a grudge because his father chose Bond over him. This makes Blofeld out to be nothing more than a whining brat. I also don't buy that one would be a superspy and the other, the world's greatest terrorist. Like was pointed out above: too Austin Powers-y.

2. Swann/Bond's relationship. This was to rushed and didn't feel natural. Swann goes from hating Bond to falling in love with him in the span of like 48 hours. I don't buy it. They didn't really have any chemistry and I don't believe that Swann would fall in love with him especially when he drags her back into the life she wanted to escape from.

3. Blofeld was underused. This is supposed to be Bond's nemesis and he gets barely 20 minutes of screen time. Not to mention, his plan is never fleshed out. What a waste.

4. The finale. The entire third act was a jumbled mess. Blofeld's base in Morocco was destroyed for no reason. The London sequence just didn't work for me. The traipse through the Vauxhall building never felt urgent. Though I did like that the gunshots on the glass seemed to form the Spectre logo from the poster.

 

I would add in Bellucci too, but I've gotten used to the secondary Bond girl being treated as nothing.

 

Overall, an enjoyable film and one that felt like a classic Bond film. But there needed to be at least one or two more drafts of the script.



#21 Guy Haines

Guy Haines

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3075 posts
  • Location:"Special envoy" no more. As of 7/5/15 elected to office somewhere in Nottinghamshire, England.

Posted 09 November 2015 - 02:51 PM

Nicely written, Harms, although I am sorry you didn't particularly enjoy it.
I get the perception of limited chemistry between Bond and Madeleine, but what did you make of Lea Seydoux? On each of my three viewings, I've become increasingly transfixed by her performance. It's subtle but a real highlight for me.


I agree about Lea Seydoux. The chemistry isn't there yet because in spite of Bond having apparently given up his line of work at the end - it's all rather vague though - I get the impression Madeleine is not 100% convinced. And I fear that something is lined up for Bond which will propel him back to duty - in fact, of course it will happen! I just hope Madeleine survives it one way or another.

She's the Bond woman who, even though shes with Bond right now, might never quite give herself to him, because of his background, and her father's. I think though she was finally won around in Blofeld's control room when she could see, or at least hear, that 007 had given her father an honourable way out.

(And I have one more personal reason for hoping Dr Swann survives - I've grown fond of female blondes, as I have recently become quite fond of one in my own life! ;-) )

#22 Professor Pi

Professor Pi

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1430 posts

Posted 09 November 2015 - 04:59 PM

In the books, Tiffanie Case lives with Bond for a while before they grow apart and she leaves.  This would seem likely with Madeleine.



#23 seawolfnyy

seawolfnyy

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4763 posts
  • Location:La Rioja

Posted 09 November 2015 - 05:03 PM

But in the novel, they also had more time. Bond and Madeleine had barely more time than a bunch of drunk idiots who get married one night in Vegas.



#24 Silva25

Silva25

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 32 posts

Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:10 AM

Yeah I was disappointed as well.  It's not a terrible film, and certainly far from the worst Bond film ever.  But it was really underwhelming for me, even more so since this is the first time that we've seen SPECTRE on-film in decades, it should have been a better return:

 

-The plot is poorly-done and full of holes.

-Monica Bellucci is criminally underused.  Waltz, Bautista, and Andrew Scott are also underused.

-Blofeld's motivations are incredibly lame.

-There's long stretches were it drags.  You could have easily cut a good 15-20 minutes out of this film.

-The "romance" is rushed/poorly-developed.  Which is a shame since Craig and Seydoux had some chemistry early on I thought.  Also Madeleine's character seems to flip on a dime with little rhyme or reason.

-M and Moneypenny are underserved by the narrative as well.

-The climax is a mess.

-Etc. 

 

On the flip side, the acting is good, there's a couple of cool action scenes (the opening, the fight on the train), it's a well-made movie overall, etc.  So not terrible, but disappointing.


i think it would have made it unbelievable enough if Oberhauser was just his own character. to make him Ernst Stavro Blofeld on top of that i just.... :angry:

I would have made Monica Bellucci Blofeld actually, that would have been interesting.  And then Oberhauser could have been her version of Emilio Largo.



#25 deth

deth

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2651 posts
  • Location:Berlin, Germany

Posted 10 November 2015 - 10:30 AM

I would have made Monica Bellucci Blofeld actually, that would have been interesting.  And then Oberhauser could have been her version of Emilio Largo.

 

 

Never been a fan of changing the gender or traits of major characters... the next step from that would be to make Bond a woman as well. 



#26 dirtymind

dirtymind

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 152 posts

Posted 10 November 2015 - 04:53 PM

 

I would have made Monica Bellucci Blofeld actually, that would have been interesting.  And then Oberhauser could have been her version of Emilio Largo.

 

 

Never been a fan of changing the gender or traits of major characters... the next step from that would be to make Bond a woman as well. 

 

You mean, a black woman.  ;)



#27 S K Y F A L L

S K Y F A L L

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6889 posts
  • Location:CANADA

Posted 10 November 2015 - 06:04 PM

II didn't care for Bond's relationship with Mr. White's daughter.

 

I also was secretly hoping Craig would ski. 

 

Why is M, Q and Moneypenny always in the field now. 

 

Bond going rouge again, just do your job for crying out load.



#28 freemo

freemo

    Commander RNR

  • Veterans Reserve
  • PipPipPip
  • 2995 posts
  • Location:Here

Posted 14 November 2015 - 02:24 AM

Fine commentary, Harmsway.

 

 

I also was secretly hoping Craig would ski. 

 

 

Yes. I too was thought Bond might ski in this one, particularly as it was one of the skills Oberhauser Sr. taught him.

 

Hell, they should have gone all out with that aspect of the story, complete with crummy, sepia-toned flashbacks of Bond and Blofeld as kids.



#29 Silva25

Silva25

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 32 posts

Posted 14 November 2015 - 08:10 PM

 

I would have made Monica Bellucci Blofeld actually, that would have been interesting.  And then Oberhauser could have been her version of Emilio Largo.

 

 

Never been a fan of changing the gender or traits of major characters... the next step from that would be to make Bond a woman as well. 

 

It's a reboot, they can do whatever they want with the supporting cast.  Like Felix or Moneypenny being Black for example, or Blofeld being Bond's long-lost foster brother (ugh).  It's not even remotely the same thing as changing Bond himself.  And it'd have been more interesting that what we got (also you wouldn't waste a great actress in a meaningless role).


II didn't care for Bond's relationship with Mr. White's daughter.

 

I also was secretly hoping Craig would ski. 

 

Why is M, Q and Moneypenny always in the field now. 

 

Bond going rouge again, just do your job for crying out load.

 

I don't even know WHY he went rogue?  He got a message from Judi Dench's M, which sent him on this assignment.  So, just tell MI6, or at least the current M and show them the evidence.  His whole thing in Skyfall was proving that he WAS trustworthy, to the point of risking his own career/freedom to help Bond, M, Q, and Tanner in their "off the books" mission to take down Silva.  Yet here, he suddenly cannot be trusted again, why?  It's "drama" purely for it's own sake, and makes very little sense.



#30 Tarl_Cabot

Tarl_Cabot

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 10505 posts
  • Location:The Galaxy of Pleasure

Posted 22 November 2015 - 04:29 AM

Great review Harms. I'm sorry you didn't like as much as I did. I think Spectre is fantastic. I'd love to read a review from our old pal Loomis.