21 replies to this topic

[fsartono]

I LOVE SPECTRE!

Been a Bond fan since a little boy (Roger Moore), teens (Dalton & Brosnan) and firstly hated and then became an absolute Craig convert after Royale!

 

Having said that I'm of the opinion that SPECTRE should have eased off a couple of scenes to keep the dark and gritty tone of the past 3 Craig 007s.

 

(POSSIBLE SPOILERS)

 

The following scenes, IMHO, should have been ommitted or edited:

 

1: The 'interrogation' scene with Bellucci should be shortened, Bond should have forced the information out of her without an extended 'foreplay' scene

2: The car chase scene: remove the part where Bond head butt's his DB into the slow car ahead of him driven by an old man

3: After the train fight scene, remove the part where Seydoux asks "so what do we do next?" and the scene right after that!

 

Your thoughts?

Edited by fsartono, 08 November 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Walecs]

I disagree about 2 and 3, I loved both scenes. And, as much as I dislike Belucci, I don't see any point in shortening that scene.

[seawolfnyy]

I did see the second one as slightly too camp. In Casino Royale, Bond would've rammed him off the round, rather than just push him. Though, none of these are the worst scenes in the film. The final act seems to really lose it's way. We never gets the sense of how menacing Blofeld really is. He's in the film for all of 15 minutes, nor do we get a true idea of what he wants to do. The destruction of his lair is far too easy. The London finale is a mess. It seems like the end of the film was built around the set pieces and the writers/producers weren't letting the story grow organically. 

[RMc2]

Very interesting question, fsartono!

 

Funny, I love 1 and 3. But I agree about 2 entirely - the old man isn't necessary at all, even if the Fiat product placement is

 

I think SP's problem is that it's not very efficiently edited. Every scene is useful to the story, but most scenes are baggy and take too long to achieve quite little.

 

I'd remove:

 

Spoiler

1. The bits with Q in the ski lifts. It's a lovely moment, but it adds nothing to the story and just interrupts the momentum of the plane chase.The laptop shots could be added to the hotel room scene afterwards.

2. The Rome car chase in general is too long, with too many gags, and lacks tension. Could be tightened up a lot.

3. Most of C's scenes could be tightened. They're a bit repetitive, and many frames (and therefore seconds of screentime) could be saved by intercutting reaction shots more, to avoid those overlong close-ups. Mendes is a bit too in love with actors sometimes.

4. The moment where Q discovers the champagne takes far too long, All it takes is two shots (steadicam shot of Q entering the lab, and the dolly shot of Q seeing the champagne) to work; instead we get four or five shots eating up 10 seconds of screentime we don't need, especially since we already know the gag before it happens.

5. That shot where Bond and Madeleine escape MI6 should end as soon as they exit the screen. Why on earth does the camera keep panning around to look down the corridor?! Pointless artiness if ever there was any.

6. Same goes for a lot of the wide location establishing shots. Many of them are held for far too long, and in the middle of action scenes, too. (e.g. Rome, CNS building at the finale)

Edited by RMc2, 08 November 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[fsartono]

RMc2 - i loved reading your suggestions. It's obvious you know a lot about movie making and editing :-) I would agree to all your points actually, 1 to 6.

[Pierceuhhh]

Lee Smith cementing his position as worst editor in Hollywood. I thought maybe it was just Nolan who led the Batman movies to be formless and turgid and full of redundant shots, but maybe it's been Smith all along.

The "follow Nolan's lead" approach has been absolutely toxic for the last 7 years of blockbusters. Bond especially should be above that. Shoulda kept Stuart Baird - unassuming British workman who just gets on and does his job!

[Hockey Mask]

1 was perfect. No issues.

2 was needed since most of the streets were empty. The airbag was Moore-ish.

3 was classic Bond. Great laughs in my theater.

Edited by 00Hockey Mask, 08 November 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[TheREAL008]

If I could, I'd edit out the part where Bond is shooting the Helicopter, and reshoot something proper and realistic. that's the only thing that brings down the movie for me. 

[Matt_13]

I think the scenes with Belucci could have been axed in favor of getting to the SPECTRE meeting faster. I'm sure they could have found a quicker method of getting Bond to that meeting. More time needed to be devoted to the Bond/Swann relationship and the scenes at the villa were unnecessary and expository. Rogue Nation did a great job of just getting us from A to B without the need to explain everything in any great detail. I hope the next film takes a page from MI in that regard. Plot holes are perfectly ok if the emotional core of the film is fully fleshed out. IMO.

[deth]

I think the scenes with Belucci could have been axed in favor of getting to the SPECTRE meeting faster. I'm sure they could have found a quicker method of getting Bond to that meeting. More time needed to be devoted to the Bond/Swann relationship and the scenes at the villa were unnecessary and expository. Rogue Nation did a great job of just getting us from A to B without the need to explain everything in any great detail. I hope the next film takes a page from MI in that regard. Plot holes are perfectly ok if the emotional core of the film is fully fleshed out. IMO.

 

They could keep the Belucci scenes (as they're some of the best in the film) if they reworked the ending... which was a bit of a mess.

[Vauxhall]

I think the helicopter fight went on too long. I found myself getting wrapped up in the obvious green screen, the lack of music, and the fact there's no way any midair battle could go on that long.

[casinoroyale75]

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

[RMc2]

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

 

Yeah, the post-train Morocco section was just bizarre, as if they really didn't know where they were going (excellent sets and torture scene, though). I quite like Bond's decision on the bridge, but as my brother pointed out, he'd killed some goons merely minutes earlier, and blown up a few hundred in Morocco while Madeleine was present, so in the context of the film it doesn't work.

 

RMc2 - i loved reading your suggestions. It's obvious you know a lot about movie making and editing :-) I would agree to all your points actually, 1 to 6.

 

Thank you! The more I think about SP, the more I suspect time was their enemy - in the editing suite, and probably in the scripting process too.

[byline]

 

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

 

Yeah, the post-train Morocco section was just bizarre, as if they really didn't know where they were going (excellent sets and torture scene, though). I quite like Bond's decision on the bridge, but as my brother pointed out, he'd killed some goons merely minutes earlier, and blown up a few hundred in Morocco while Madeleine was present, so in the context of the film it doesn't work.

Except that earlier on in the film, Madeleine echoes Vesper's comments to Bond, that he has a choice ... and that at any point in his life, he can choose differently and leave the path he's been on. I think that was the moment Bond decided to choose differently, and walk away from it all (as he tried to in the last act of Casino Royale). I liked it, mainly because the ghost of Vesper was hovering in that scene (if only in my mind) and influencing Bond's decision to free himself from this life.

[Vauxhall]

 

 

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

 

Yeah, the post-train Morocco section was just bizarre, as if they really didn't know where they were going (excellent sets and torture scene, though). I quite like Bond's decision on the bridge, but as my brother pointed out, he'd killed some goons merely minutes earlier, and blown up a few hundred in Morocco while Madeleine was present, so in the context of the film it doesn't work.

Except that earlier on in the film, Madeleine echoes Vesper's comments to Bond, that he has a choice ... and that at any point in his life, he can choose differently and leave the path he's been on. I think that was the moment Bond decided to choose differently, and walk away from it all (as he tried to in the last act of Casino Royale). I liked it, mainly because the ghost of Vesper was hovering in that scene (if only in my mind) and influencing Bond's decision to free himself from this life.

 

 

There was an early idea (although it's possible I dreamt it), that Bond saved Madeleine (or possibly the character known as Kaja in early drafts) from drowning in the final act - succeeding where he failed with Vesper, and echoing Tracy. It's a pretty simple idea, but would perhaps have exorcised the ghost of Vesper more directly.

[seawolfnyy]

 

 

There was an early idea (although it's possible I dreamt it), that Bond saved Madeleine (or possibly the character known as Kaja in early drafts) from drowning in the final act - succeeding where he failed with Vesper, and echoing Tracy. It's a pretty simple idea, but would perhaps have exorcised the ghost of Vesper more directly.

 

That would have been an interesting idea. Especially since he never got over it, despite what the ending of Quantum of Solace suggested.

[SecretAgentFan]

That actually sounds very captivating - and would have provided Craig with a dynamite scene.

 

Too bad, however, that it reminds one a bit too much of Bond saving Jinx in the ice palace... ;-)

[RMc2]

 

 

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

 

Yeah, the post-train Morocco section was just bizarre, as if they really didn't know where they were going (excellent sets and torture scene, though). I quite like Bond's decision on the bridge, but as my brother pointed out, he'd killed some goons merely minutes earlier, and blown up a few hundred in Morocco while Madeleine was present, so in the context of the film it doesn't work.

Except that earlier on in the film, Madeleine echoes Vesper's comments to Bond, that he has a choice ... and that at any point in his life, he can choose differently and leave the path he's been on. I think that was the moment Bond decided to choose differently, and walk away from it all (as he tried to in the last act of Casino Royale). I liked it, mainly because the ghost of Vesper was hovering in that scene (if only in my mind) and influencing Bond's decision to free himself from this life.

 

 

That last scene is pretty well done, and as someone (can't remember who, sorry) pointed out on another thread, Bond's choice is represented by Madeleine at one end of the bridge and M at the other, which is a nice touch. And Vesper's presence is felt, right from the moment her face appears in the title sequence. So haunting...

 

I just wish they'd emphasised Bond's character arc a bit more by lowering the body count a bit. Bond didn't have to kill the SPECTRE goons at the end - they could've just let him go, which is presumably what Blofeld had ordered them to do. The helicopter deaths are fine because they're an accident (I presume Bond was just trying to bring the chopper down, not blow it up). And Mr Hinx's 'death' doesn't have an effect on Madeleine at all, it seems. I dunno, it just all feels muddled.

[sharpshooter]

I think the film slows down a little too much once they reach L'Americain. I'd tighten those scenes up a bit more. And perhaps have Hinx in the car that kidnaps Bond at the end. I think one more fight would've given the finale added oomph. 

[AMC Hornet]

Taking everyone's criticisms and suggestions into account (including those yet to come), I now present SPECTRE: the CBn Edit:

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

I

[Professor Pi]

Definitely agree with op on all 3 counts. Also thought "the meet and greet villain" scenario was too campy. Didn't like the critical choice Bond made on the bridge (I get their reasoning, I just don't agree with it). It goes against the grain of the character imo. I felt like this hurt the third act as well. A lot.

 

When Bond shoots at Blofeld behind the glass, the shot while they're talking reflects Blofeld's face onto Bond's.  So we are meant to think he could end up like his half brother, sort of like in Skyfall when Bond sees Silva's jaw and realizes that could have been him.  There's a line in CR to Vesper about "you do what I do for too long and eventually there's nothing left.  Time to get out while there's still some of me left to salvage."  So I think the ending and the choice works.  It would have been more believable had there been more chemistry between Craig and Seydoux.

 

As for the recommended edits in this thread, the Bellucci scene is pretty good, I just wish Mendes had done that as one pan shot as well like the PTS, so it's a surprise that Bond's been behind her (ala how did they film that?!)

 

The car chase is enjoyable, but there's no tension to it.  But the dialog between Bond and Moneypenny about Oberhauser sets up the best part in the score with the choir after the audience learns Oberhauser is supposed to be dead.  And why burn his face out of the picture from forensics?  The audience doesn't get why Bond has seen a ghost at the SPECTRE meeting, only Bond does.  Had we known the face from the childhood photo, it would have worked better.  EON isn't good with twists.  They spoil the Trevelyan thing in GoldenEye's trailer, but try to keep the villain identity secret in a movie friggin' titled SPECTRE!

 

The whole Q/ring/gondola scene makes no sense.  Shout out where he's staying, room number and what time he'll be there, and yet no goons within earshot show up at said location and time?  Take that scene out, we can assume Bond knows where Q is, or he could have texted it to him via Moneypenny's phone.

 

But the white tux on the train leading up to Bond seeing Hinx in the martini shaker reflection, ala Goldfinger's PTS, was a nice callback.  Bond and Swann hooking up after the adrenalin of that makes perfect sense. 

[Everything or nothing]

1. Dump the evil stepbrother angle - diminishes Blofeld and adds nothing to the plot.

2. Car chase - end the phone call before the chase gets serious and then add some jeopardy. This was less danagerous for Bond than the DB5/Ferrari scene in GE.

3. Make finding out the structure of SPECTRE much more difficult. Q basically works it all out on a laptop in a ski lift whilst being pursued by baddies. An organisation like SPECTRE should take a whole movie to uncover so therefore...

4...the awesome SPECTRE meeting should be part of the climax.

5. the escape from Blofeld's base was much too easy.

6. Blofeld should not be caught in the first film back and certainly not this easily.

7. Dump the whole "Bond goes Rogue". We get this every film now and it is getting predictable.  I can't see why M could not have authorised the Mexico sequence. He could also order Bond to "disappear". Bond is a military man and it is silly that he is constantly disobeying orders.

8. Blofeld should be more menacing.