43 replies to this topic

[The Shark]

From what I've seen in the teaser, trailer and two TV spots, I'm a little disappointed with SPECTRE's narrow colour pallet. Scenes like the PTS in Mexico City or Bond steering across Lake Altrouse look they were filmed at midday and graded to appear much later in the day. What were colourful locales in the production/media stills and vlogs now appear dark, dingy and to be honest, pretty damn fugly, at least when measured against Deakins's work on Skyfall (which even in the teaser had more variety of tones and hues going on).

 

 

 

I'm hoping this is just the marketing team's hack job, and they're following current Hollywood trends by giving all trailers a bog standard teal & orange look. Yet somehow I doubt it...

[sharpshooter]

I have no reason to doubt the trailer footage will be any different to the final film.

[dirtymind]

I completely agree. Reminds me of the criticism Man of Steel got and that YouTube video "What if Man of Steel was in color". I hope the final product has more colors than the trailer.

[The Shark]

Man of Steel was fairly desaturated but this is much more extreme. Just look at the crane shot of the parade--it's like frickin' sulphur clouds!

 

Apocalypse Now springs to mind.

 

[MattofSteel]

I can't say I outright hate it, but it's a bit of a shame.

[Harmsway]

The upcoming art of Bond book says that the film was visually designed around the extremes of hot and cold. I think the drastic color grading is part of that initiative.

[Walecs]

That still from the trailer looks really lame indeed. Hopefully The Shark's right.

[Harmsway]

Her also had a similar look in certain scenes. So it would seem that it's partially Van Hoytema.

[Brimar]

Man of Steel was fairly desaturated but this is much more extreme. Just look at the crane shot of the parade--it's like frickin' sulphur clouds!
 
Apocalypse Now springs to mind.
 

I understand the concern regarding the yellow-ish Mexico City scenes, but I feel you're actually right about the time of day of each of the settings - late afternoon. As is the crossing of the Austrian lake.

 

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very conscience
decision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

 

Man of Steel was more an overall desaturated look than a "color coded" approach like Spectre. I think that after the final DI pass, the colors will pop a bit more and have better vibrancy and black levels.

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

Edited by Brimar, 15 September 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[JohnnyWalker]

I've been looking through HD screencaps for the trailer and all I can say is the look really does capture the heat/atmosphere, and it doesn't appear to be losing any colours.

Edited by JohnnyWalker, 15 September 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[SecretAgentFan]

It´s very fire and ice.

 

Probably a Willy Bogner reference.

[thecasinoroyale]

Hadn't clicked with me until now - damn these observant, passionate Bond fans!

[Robinson]

I say, after the film makes its way to home video, we all take a screen grab or a segment of the film, grade it ourselves and share our respective creations amongst ourselves.

I'd love to see what " looks" we could create on our own and hear the reasons why.

[agentbug]

Wow, the above really puts the comparison into focus... I too am concerned.

 

I know we've not seen much of the snowy scenes but I keep thinking how months ago the Facebook page posted a beautiful, blue sky, bright white snow shot of a camera truck in Austria... and none of the snowy scenes thus far shown have an iota of the beauty from that photograph...

[The Shark]

The upcoming art of Bond book says that the film was visually designed around the extremes of hot and cold. I think the drastic color grading is part of that initiative.

Oh Jesus. Have Mendes and Hoytema contracted Forsteritis?
 

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very conscience
decision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

Colour coding can look wonderful, but I just wish the choice of colours were less boring and predictable than a binary opposition yellow/amber and grey-blue, which has become an industry standard, homogenising the look of so many blockbusters.
 

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

I'm a big Victor Storaro fan, especially of his work with Bertolucci (The Conformist is my favourite but The Last Emperor is one of the best uses of colour symbolism with the old photochemical methods). That said, Coppola and Storaro's Vietnam in Apocalypse Now is meant to look like hell on earth. I understand that Mendes and Hoytema are going for a menacing aesthetic, but Bond is supposed to have an element of travelogue. What's the point of taking us to all these beautiful locations if they're made to be as unappealing and dystopic as possible?



Looking at that, I'd rather visit Luton.
 

I say, after the film makes its way to home video, we all take a screen grab or a segment of the film, grade it ourselves and share our respective creations amongst ourselves.

I'd love to see what " looks" we could create on our own and hear the reasons why.

Sounds like a plan!

[seawolfnyy]

I really like the way that Austria looks in the trailers, however, I am not at all a fan of the Mexico grading. It seems like everything set in a hispanic area needs an orange filter. I find it more distracting than anything as any sane person knows that's not what it really looks like.

[DaveBond21]

Wow, the above really puts the comparison into focus... I too am concerned.

 

I know we've not seen much of the snowy scenes but I keep thinking how months ago the Facebook page posted a beautiful, blue sky, bright white snow shot of a camera truck in Austria... and none of the snowy scenes thus far shown have an iota of the beauty from that photograph...

 

I am with you on this point.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

[Brimar]

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very consciencedecision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

Colour coding can look wonderful, but I just wish the choice of colours were less boring and predictable than a binary opposition yellow/amber and grey-blue, which has become an industry standard, homogenising the look of so many blockbusters. 

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

I'm a big Victor Storaro fan, especially of his work with Bertolucci (The Conformist is my favourite but The Last Emperor is one of the best uses of colour symbolism with the old photochemical methods). That said, Coppola and Storaro's Vietnam in Apocalypse Now is meant to look like hell on earth. I understand that Mendes and Hoytema are going for a menacing aesthetic, but Bond is supposed to have an element of travelogue. What's the point of taking us to all these beautiful locations if they're made to be as unappealing and dystopic as possible?Looking at that, I'd rather visit Luton. 

I agree. As a scene, it's bleak and not very colorful. But apart from the cold color tone, I feel it's also designed this way to reflect Bonds psychological state at this time in the film in terms of what unknown situation he is about to enter: something forbodding and menacing. I know other Bond films had more colorful scenes with Bond in peril, but Mendes seems far more wanting to connect look and tone of each scene. Morocco, I feel will have the most travelogue feel of them all. Obviously, won't know for sure till we see it. 

Edited by Brimar, 16 September 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

 

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very consciencedecision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

Colour coding can look wonderful, but I just wish the choice of colours were less boring and predictable than a binary opposition yellow/amber and grey-blue, which has become an industry standard, homogenising the look of so many blockbusters. 

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

I'm a big Victor Storaro fan, especially of his work with Bertolucci (The Conformist is my favourite but The Last Emperor is one of the best uses of colour symbolism with the old photochemical methods). That said, Coppola and Storaro's Vietnam in Apocalypse Now is meant to look like hell on earth. I understand that Mendes and Hoytema are going for a menacing aesthetic, but Bond is supposed to have an element of travelogue. What's the point of taking us to all these beautiful locations if they're made to be as unappealing and dystopic as possible?Looking at that, I'd rather visit Luton. 

I agree. As a scene, it's bleak and not very colorful. But apart from the cold color tone, I feel it's also designed this way to reflect Bonds psychological state at this time in the film in terms of what unknown situation he is about to enter: something forbodding and menacing. I know other Bond films had more colorful scenes with Bond in peril, but Mendes seems far more wanting to connect look and tone of each scene. Morocco, I feel will have the most travelogue feel of them all. Obviously, won't know for sure till we see it. 

 

 

That particular scene, I imagine, was never supposed to look like an enticing travelogue.  Judging from the trailers, this is about Bond journeying to Mr. White, and the dark, brooding atmosphere - for my taste - is captured brilliantly.  I know misty days like these when the cold and the dampness are hanging in the air, creeping up.  Any bright colors would not work here at all.

 

As for the Day of the Dead scene - I guess, again, it´s not like the "Carnival in Rio" in MOONRAKER but about setting the tone for a weirdly, sickly atmosphere, slightly unreal.

 

In other words: enforcing tourism is not part of SPECTRE´s agenda, I think.

[RMc2]

Yeah, I was disappointed with the Mexico grading since the first trailer clips emerged. Not so fussed about the Austrian scenes so far - they're so atmospheric, and beautiful in a haunting way.

 

I'm 100% certain Hoytema was picked largely because of his ability to recreate Deakins' desaturated, muted work on SF (with his work with snow on Let The Right One In and his work with Christopher Nolan sealing the deal). Hoytema grades everything he does, sure, but there's more natural colour on display in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy and Interstellar than what we've seen in SPECTRE so far.

 

I don't mean to say that he's been forced to copy Deakins, but that Mendes has asked for the same (rather bland spectrum, imho) look and feel of SF, and Hoytema has obliged. Just compare the PTOs and all the night-time interior scenes: the major difference so far seems to be the level of shadows, but the colours are the same.

[The Shark]

This doesn't look desaturated, or anywhere near as uniform as Hoytema's work on SPECTRE.

[RMc2]

This doesn't look desaturated, or anywhere near as uniform as Hoytema's work on SPECTRE.

 

Very good point!

 

But so far all we've seen from SPECTRE is some snow scenes, which I like and which we can't directly compare to SF; night time tungsten interiors and night time Rome exteriors, which look just like SF's interiors in M's house, the Macau casino & London streets at night; and Mexico day, which look just like SF's Istanbul scenes to me.

 

I don't have screencaps, but the glimpses of SPECTRE's lair and M's office look more colourful, but deliberately cold. So I'm optimistic about those scenes.

 

However, the point I was trying to make (and should really have said!) was that I think Hoytema's been asked to mimic Deakins, perhaps against his instincts, to judge from his previous work. But he's not Deakins, so SPECTRE's grading may therefore look 'worse'.

[Matt_13]

I think once we're able to settle into the scenes the color grading won't be so noticeable. Casino Royale is oversaturated as well but I never really notice when watching the film.

[sharpshooter]

That particular scene, I imagine, was never supposed to look like an enticing travelogue.  Judging from the trailers, this is about Bond journeying to Mr. White, and the dark, brooding atmosphere - for my taste - is captured brilliantly. 

Good point.

[Brimar]

This doesn't look desaturated, or anywhere near as uniform as Hoytema's work on SPECTRE.

Very good point!

But so far all we've seen from SPECTRE is some snow scenes, which I like and which we can't directly compare to SF; night time tungsten interiors and night time Rome exteriors, which look just like SF's interiors in M's house, the Macau casino & London streets at night; and Mexico day, which look just like SF's Istanbul scenes to me.

I don't have screencaps, but the glimpses of SPECTRE's lair and M's office look more colourful, but deliberately cold. So I'm optimistic about those scenes.

However, the point I was trying to make (and should really have said!) was that I think Hoytema's been asked to mimic Deakins, perhaps against his instincts, to judge from his previous work. But he's not Deakins, so SPECTRE's grading may therefore look 'worse'.

I feel that Deakins' work on SF is the benchmark for cinematography in the Bond series, imo.

But I feel Mendes deliberately choose Van Hoytema due to the visual diversity of his films. HER is spectacular-looking, with a very warm color pallet as opposed to Let The Right On In which is beautiful but cold. And both compliment their films perfectly. SP will hopefully be no different.

Mendes who has a great eye for his directors of photography, must have faith in Van Hoytema that he could bring a unique look to SP (shooting anamorphic widescreen, more film grain, et) that probably also shares a few similarities to SF.

I really feel the final product and its emotional impact will be quite effective once we see how all the narrative, sonic and visual elements come together.

Edited by Brimar, 17 September 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[Shrublands]

 

 

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very consciencedecision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

Colour coding can look wonderful, but I just wish the choice of colours were less boring and predictable than a binary opposition yellow/amber and grey-blue, which has become an industry standard, homogenising the look of so many blockbusters. 

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

I'm a big Victor Storaro fan, especially of his work with Bertolucci (The Conformist is my favourite but The Last Emperor is one of the best uses of colour symbolism with the old photochemical methods). That said, Coppola and Storaro's Vietnam in Apocalypse Now is meant to look like hell on earth. I understand that Mendes and Hoytema are going for a menacing aesthetic, but Bond is supposed to have an element of travelogue. What's the point of taking us to all these beautiful locations if they're made to be as unappealing and dystopic as possible?Looking at that, I'd rather visit Luton. 

I agree. As a scene, it's bleak and not very colorful. But apart from the cold color tone, I feel it's also designed this way to reflect Bonds psychological state at this time in the film in terms of what unknown situation he is about to enter: something forbodding and menacing. I know other Bond films had more colorful scenes with Bond in peril, but Mendes seems far more wanting to connect look and tone of each scene. Morocco, I feel will have the most travelogue feel of them all. Obviously, won't know for sure till we see it. 

 

 

That particular scene, I imagine, was never supposed to look like an enticing travelogue.  Judging from the trailers, this is about Bond journeying to Mr. White, and the dark, brooding atmosphere - for my taste - is captured brilliantly.  I know misty days like these when the cold and the dampness are hanging in the air, creeping up.  Any bright colors would not work here at all.

 

As for the Day of the Dead scene - I guess, again, it´s not like the "Carnival in Rio" in MOONRAKER but about setting the tone for a weirdly, sickly atmosphere, slightly unreal.

 

In other words: enforcing tourism is not part of SPECTRE´s agenda, I think.

 

 

Exactly. It's about meaning, atmosphere and the film's over all dramatic function. 

 

Here Bond is traveling into White's frozen hell of his own making, not playing in a winter wonderland.

[mrmoon]

 

 

 

To me all the films interiors are gorgeous, however, the Roman villa, the Spectre meeting, the train. Those look great. But as was posted above, I think it is also a very consciencedecision to contrast each of the locations. I have no doubt the color grading will fit the narrative and tone of each scene as well as have a good amount of saturation - just more color-coded so to speak: Yellow for Mexico, Sepia for Rome, cool color pallet for Austria and hopefully a more vibrant orange for Morocco.

Colour coding can look wonderful, but I just wish the choice of colours were less boring and predictable than a binary opposition yellow/amber and grey-blue, which has become an industry standard, homogenising the look of so many blockbusters. 

Also, being compared to Storaro's work on Apacalypse Now is not a bad thing in my book. One of the best color films I have ever seen.

I'm a big Victor Storaro fan, especially of his work with Bertolucci (The Conformist is my favourite but The Last Emperor is one of the best uses of colour symbolism with the old photochemical methods). That said, Coppola and Storaro's Vietnam in Apocalypse Now is meant to look like hell on earth. I understand that Mendes and Hoytema are going for a menacing aesthetic, but Bond is supposed to have an element of travelogue. What's the point of taking us to all these beautiful locations if they're made to be as unappealing and dystopic as possible?Looking at that, I'd rather visit Luton. 

I agree. As a scene, it's bleak and not very colorful. But apart from the cold color tone, I feel it's also designed this way to reflect Bonds psychological state at this time in the film in terms of what unknown situation he is about to enter: something forbodding and menacing. I know other Bond films had more colorful scenes with Bond in peril, but Mendes seems far more wanting to connect look and tone of each scene. Morocco, I feel will have the most travelogue feel of them all. Obviously, won't know for sure till we see it. 

 

 

That particular scene, I imagine, was never supposed to look like an enticing travelogue.  Judging from the trailers, this is about Bond journeying to Mr. White, and the dark, brooding atmosphere - for my taste - is captured brilliantly.  I know misty days like these when the cold and the dampness are hanging in the air, creeping up.  Any bright colors would not work here at all.

 

As for the Day of the Dead scene - I guess, again, it´s not like the "Carnival in Rio" in MOONRAKER but about setting the tone for a weirdly, sickly atmosphere, slightly unreal.

 

In other words: enforcing tourism is not part of SPECTRE´s agenda, I think.

 

 

Exactly. It's about meaning, atmosphere and the film's over all dramatic function. 

 

Here Bond is traveling into White's frozen hell of his own making, not playing in a winter wonderland.

 

 

I agree on the Austria scenes. Makes narrative sense from what I've seen. As for the Mexico scenes, colour me disappointed. I really thought these scenes would be incredibly vibrant, a real contrast to what we've seen for the bulk of the last two movies. I really don't understand the thinking behind it; stage one of the most dynamic and striking festivals in the world and then sap all the colour out of it. Odd.

[antovolk]

Thought I'd chime in. A lot of people on other non-Bond forums have actually lauded HvH's cinematography from the footage released so far, it is only places like here I see complaints about it being too desaturated/not colourful enough etc. I take it some of that may be due to the impression that "Bond is supposed to have a travelogue element" - which is something I disagree with.

If anything, Hoytema's work here is very similar to Jeff Cronenwerth's work on David Fincher's recent films - namely The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and Gone Girl. Haven't seen anyone rip into him for making films "cliché dark" or whatever.

And, this really ties in to what Mendes said about the story of the film in a recent Empire interview, they're reintroducing familiar elements, such as the beautiful locations, but changing the context, "you don't get them in the way you expect to get them" to quote Mendes. You'd expect something like the Day of the Dead to have bright very colourful cinematography, but they flip the script by having it more menacing, that's the point really, not to have a "travelogue". One shot that really left an impression on me was the first shot of the teaser with the bombed-out MI6 building - you've got such familiar elements displayed in such a different light. That may be unrealistic, but that's the point - making it more grand and almost fantastical in essence when you see it on a big screen as opposed to hyper-realistic.

TL;DR the cinematography being not what you'd expect when thinking about the "colourful locations" plays into one of the main approaches to the film itself.

Edited by antovolk, 17 September 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[mrmoon]

Thought I'd chime in. A lot of people on other non-Bond forums have actually lauded HvH's cinematography from the footage released so far, it is only places like here I see complaints about it being too desaturated/not colourful enough etc. I take it some of that may be due to the impression that "Bond is supposed to have a travelogue element" - which is something I disagree with.

If anything, Hoytema's work here is very similar to Jeff Cronenwerth's work on David Fincher's recent films - namely The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and Gone Girl. Haven't seen anyone rip into him for making films "cliché dark" or whatever.

And, this really ties in to what Mendes said about the story of the film in a recent Empire interview, they're reintroducing familiar elements, such as the beautiful locations, but changing the context, "you don't get them in the way you expect to get them" to quote Mendes. You'd expect something like the Day of the Dead to have bright very colourful cinematography, but they flip the script by having it more menacing, that's the point really, not to have a "travelogue". One shot that really left an impression on me was the first shot of the teaser with the bombed-out MI6 building - you've got such familiar elements displayed in such a different light. That may be unrealistic, but that's the point - making it more grand and almost fantastical in essence when you see it on a big screen as opposed to hyper-realistic.

TL;DR the cinematography being not what you'd expect when thinking about the "colourful locations" plays into one of the main approaches to the film itself.

 

Subverting tropes for the sake of subverting tropes, across the board, isn't necessarily clever it's just A.N. Other approach and, frankly, an obvious one. Of course, we'll have to wait and see how this plays out in the context of the film, but from what I've seen it doesn't do the location or the event justice. Adding a sense of vibrancy doesn't have to mean losing a sense of menace. LALD, which this scene evokes, proves best that you can have a strong colour palette, yet retain that sense of the bizarre, otherworldly, dread. This simply looks a little too washed out for my taste and lacks some of the contrast I would expect from HvH. I'm not keen on the idea of the film delivering a relentless feeling of doom and gloom, SF already did that, I'd be keen for a bit of light and shade and a bit of pizzazz, for want of a better word. Watching the trailer, a lot, if not all the locations feel like they could be the same place. However, from the few Morocco exterior shots we've seen, those stark blue skies will add some much needed colour. 

[Harmsway]

I think the film is attractive. I'm disappointed that they've muted the color range in so many sequences, but it still has an elegant look.

That said, the Day of the Dead scene was always intended to look stark and menacing. The dominant colors on set were black and white with slight color accents. Van Hoytema may have bathed it all in a dusty haze (probably to evoke a sense of heat), but it was never going to "pop," even if Deakins had been behind the camera.