22 replies to this topic

[SecretAgentFan]

"Licence To Kill" (re-watch)

 

Either the unacknowledged gem or the whipping boy of the franchise.  

 

For me, it is neither.  But it is definitely a well-paced, tense and action-packed thriller, with great stunts, a scary villain and a smolderingly-angry Timothy Dalton.

 

Two things that irked me before: Felix being so happy at the end... and the winking fish.  Both did not anger me now, instead I think I overreacted before, and now I see that Felix is not that happy, and the winking fish is just a very short shot, trying to...

 

... and here´s my regular criticism of John Glen´s movies: the funny ending.  Somehow his films are all geared up being straight spy stories, yet they all have to end with silly jokes.  Why?

 

I know why.  But still, this safety net works completely against LTK´s whole concept, much more than in the previous Glen-films.  

 

As does the Q scene.  I love Q, make no mistake.  But to have him track down Bond, stick around with him and assist him... no, that is just wrong for this kind of story.

 

Also... I think Pam is a character with great potential - but the film gives her interesting traits and then takes them away again, reducing her emotional state to a teenager, sulking because Bond is fumbling around with another woman.  Glen even has Q console her.  C´mon...

 

But these are minor quibbles in the end.  The film is so much better than people thought at that time - and that includes me.  When I saw it in theatres, it was the summer of "Batman", "Lethal Weapon 2" and "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade", and... well, people were just preoccupied with those.  "Batman" had the macabre, "LW2" had the wink-wink-we´re fun-attitude, and "Indy 3" was fun and had the adventure-factor.  LTK, one could argue, went for something else which could have been a wise market decision.  But I was not interested in that revenge against a drug-czar-story for Bond.  I had expected another TLD.  I did not get it, and I was not able to see beyond that, letting the critical consensus of actual critics and friends persuade me: Bond was going downhill.

 

It may also be that I was oversaturated with Bond.  Within seven years we had gotten five Bond films (in the OP year even a second one with NSNA).  Maybe that was just too much.

 

One other thing: on blu-ray at least LTK did not look cheap to me, and the cinematography once again is pretty good.  Michael Kamen´s score is interestingly shrill with its strings, brass and percussion - but I like it, it´s different and appropriately aggressive.  Then again, would a Barry score have added that certain haunted sadness that could have elevated LTK better?  Since the film alludes to Bond´s marriage, another marriage of people close to him ending in death, had the potential to make this story really personal - Bond going after Sanchez in order to finally kill him because he could not kill Blofeld.  Unfortunately, this idea is not developed.

 

As for Timothy Dalton - I already said that I love his portrayal, but I prefer his take on Bond in TLD because it offered him more range.  It would have been great to see him do another Bond in order to find out if he could got more out of the character than his simmering seriousness with good-natured friendliness.  One thing he, IMO, did not show in both his Bond films is what the other Bond actors pulled off immediately: an arrogant, amused confidence.  Dalton always played Bond as someone who struggles to keep his anger controlled.  He does not appear to have fun being Bond.

 

[trevanian]

I think LTK shows just how dangerous this world of his is, which can be kind of upsetting when you're really confronted with say, Felx & the shark, but what balances that out for me is that you see Bond is not only devastated by it, but also how much a human side emerges when he pulls off the escape from the WAVEKREST. I think he IS having fun -- as much fun as he is going to have that week -- when he is flying that plane off with all the money.

 

I just think they really needed to turn the fill light off for most of this film and keep it very dark-looking and CONTRASTY. That's not just to get the proper rich look for  a Bond image, but also to reflect the circumstances. The fact this doesn't happen really undercuts the mood, time & again. 

 

I just can't understand why JG didn't take a good long look at Dalton and have them address that hair -- the vampire look doesn't do anybody any good at all. I also think you needed maybe 8 or 10 frames at the end just before Bond ignites Sanchez when the latter realizes what is going to happen and doesn't duck his fate, because now at last he understands Bond is as much about loyalty as he is himself.

 

The laser polaroid probably belongs in VIEW TO A KILL, JG's humor IS very problematic.

Still in my top 3 (has never been out of my top 5, actually) and the last Bond movie I ever thought was really very good at all.

[SecretAgentFan]

Ah, the "Vampire hair".  I must say I didn´t find it too strange this time.  It´s actually just slicked back for the casino sequence.  Back then, people did slick their hair back for festive occasions, and it was considered well coiffed.

 

Some day, people will snicker about the buzz cut (well, not exactly, but the very short style) of Craig´s films.

[Call Billy Bob]

Some day, people will snicker about the buzz cut (well, not exactly, but the very short style) of Craig´s films.

Not me! I've had my hair cut this way since I was 6!

[David_M]

 

 

But these are minor quibbles in the end.  The film is so much better than people thought at that time - and that includes me. 

 

 

My problem was I couldn't find anyone with an opinion, either way.  Nobody I knew could be bothered to see it.  I don't know if that was because of the shockingly poor (for Eon) publicity campaign or the aforementioned distractions of Batman, Lethal Weapon, Last Crusade and even Star Trek V (now there's a stinker for you), but LTK just seemed to fail to make any kind of impression in my neck of the woods.

 

My then-girlfriend (now wife) won me tickets to an early screening of LTK, and that ended up being my only viewing, ending my FYEO-to-TLD streak of seeing every Bond at least 3 times in the theater.  I always carried some guilt over that, as LTK was followed by a 6-year-hiatus; I had failed to "do my part" by purchasing even one ticket!

 

I have to say, though, that my girlfriend/wife loved LTK, and she is generally ambivalent-to-disdainful of the Bond films.  She also enjoyed CR and more or less SF, so I think the take-away is that she's not against Bond per se, she's just not a fan of the classic formula, which is pretty well broken in all those entries.  At the time, I interpreted LTK as a bid to break with tradition and expand, or maybe just shift, to a new audience, and I was okay with that.  More okay than I was with the Brosnan era slavishly returning to formula (only without the fun).

 

 

 

Then again, would a Barry score have added that certain haunted sadness that could have elevated LTK better? 

 

You know, that's an interesting question.  As much as I love Barry, and as underwhelmed as I was by Kamen's work, I have to say I would've preferred a third option. though I couldn't tell you who.  Barry's work, though varied and boundlessly inventive, is always lush and elegant, and LTK is anything but a lush or elegant film.  I think it would've created a sort of cognitive dissonance to hear a lot of "pretty" tracks accompanying such an ugly film.  And when I say "ugly," I mean in terms of tone and subject matter, not the cinematography, which I agree is just fine and occasionally impressive.

 

 

 

 

 

As for Timothy Dalton - I already said that I love his portrayal, but I prefer his take on Bond in TLD because it offered him more range. 

 

 

This has always been my chief gripe with LTK.  I know Dalton added a real "zing" to TLD with his flashes of anger and intensity, but IMHO it was a mistake to construct an entire film with the aim of keeping him in that mode for two hours.  Dalton was capable of a much larger range than what he was allowed in this film.

 

 

 

Ah, the "Vampire hair".

 

Technically, I think Eddie Munster was a werewolf.

Edited by David_M, 20 May 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[glidrose]

You know, that's an interesting question.  As much as I love Barry, and as underwhelmed as I was by Kamen's work, I have to say I would've preferred a third option. though I couldn't tell you who.  Barry's work, though varied and boundlessly inventive, is always lush and elegant, and LTK is anything but a lush or elegant film.  I think it would've created a sort of cognitive dissonance to hear a lot of "pretty" tracks accompanying such an ugly film.  And when I say "ugly," I mean in terms of tone and subject matter, not the cinematography, which I agree is just fine and occasionally impressive.

I think Barry would have known to write a score that worked with the film. Looked from his perspective, it wouldn't have been the "same old same old" Bond he'd been doing. Insofar as we can predict these things, I think his score would have been darker, incorporated Latin American musical elements, as well as dissonance. Certainly more brass.

Consider track #5 "Desperation" from the movie "The Killing Affair" (a.k.a. "My Sister's Keeper"). Yes, it's got the patented John Barry style in spades, but it also features dissonance - i.e. notes that sound like they don't belong or somebody's out of tune, not an entirely accurate description, but good enough for laymen. I won't link to Youtube, but you can find it by searching "My Sister's Keeper Aka The Killing Affair (Complete Soundtrack) John Barry". The particular track begins at 6:00.

I'm sure if The Shark is reading this thread, he can easily find more atypical examples from the 1980's that suggest how JB would have written the LTK score.

Another thing to consider is that tho' JB's Moonraker score is what we now typically associate with him, at the time it was a bold new Bond direction. (Yes, I know his mid to late '70s work was becoming increasingly lush.) Gone was the patented brassiness. If you don't believe me, try listening to his TMWTGG and MR scores back to back. At the time, his MR score really was the odd one out.

 

And if you really want something atypical, youtube John Barry's climactic track for the 1975 film "The Day of the Locust". Yikes. Probably the only time in his career he wrote a full-on horror music track. I won't link to it, but search for "The Day Of The Locust - John Barry" from user RogueRotting360. The creepy track runs 4:24.

 

From that same era is his score for the 1977 Charles Bronson film "The White Buffalo". Youtube "John Barry - The White Buffalo (Main Title)" and "John Barry - Ohinyan/End Credits (The White Buffalo)". Possibly the bleakest, darkest score JB ever wrote.

 

Go on, give them a listen...

[SecretAgentFan]

Wonderful listening ideas, glidrose!  JB really was one of the best and versatile composers around.

[David_M]

Thanks for the links, glidrose.  Always a treat to hear Barry tracks that are new to me.

 

The one from "The Killing Affair" starts off very AVTAK for me, then transitions to TLD.  Not saying they're derivative, but that kind of vibe.  The "Locust" one is way creepy.  Working on the others.

 

I will cede you the larger point here and acknowledge that it's wrong to try and pigeonhole anyone as versatile as Barry. Indeed, he seemed to do his best when a real challenge was thrown at him, which may be why my favorite Bond scores from him are MR, where he had to convince us Bond was really knocking around in outer space (with due respect to the amazing Derek Meddings, Barry deserves a big hunk of the credit for selling such an outlandish concept), OHMSS, wherein he had to create a sense of genuine romance for a notoriously fey womanizer like 007 (plus more or less "reinvent" the Bond sound for a new star and directing style) and TLD, wherein he again had to sell a new Bond, and a more-tender-than-usual romance, and with both OHMSS and TLD he threw in new, electronic instruments and effects when we probably would've been content with his tried-and-true strings and horns.  Honorable mention goes to FRWL, which after all invented most of the Bond sound after the less-than-inspiring efforts of Monty Norman.

 

No doubt he'd have risen to the challenge with LTK.  And at the very least, if he'd done it, I'd have something to remember the film fondly for.

 

So, thanks for nothing. :-)  Now I can add his absence from LTK to my list of regrets, right up there with GE.  I remember watching the dish rise up from the lake in GE, and thinking, "If John Barry had scored it, this probably would have been impressive."

Edited by David_M, 23 May 2015 - 01:01 AM.

[tdalton]

I guess I'll go rogue and be the one to defend Michael Kamen's score for the film.  I like it, quite a bit actually.  There's nothing wrong with shaking up the sound of the franchise and going in a different direction every once in a while.  For my money, Barry went out on a high, as I think his score for The Living Daylights is right up there among the very best.  As they say, always leave them wanting more.

 

As for Kamen's work on Licence to Kill, I think he did a pretty good job of taking Bond in a new direction.  I absolutely love the music that accompanies the gunbarrel sequence.  Hands down the best of the franchise, and it's not even close.  His "Pam" theme is also one of my favorite tracks in the entire franchise, especially that piano bit at the end that accompanies the much (wrongly) reviled ending of the film in the pool.  

[Call Billy Bob]

Can't stand the LTK gunbarrel music. Too different and drastic for my taste. And Kamen's arrangement of the Bond theme is dreadful...

[SecretAgentFan]

I like the LTK gunbarrel music because it really shakes things up, indicating that this film will be shocking.   But IMO it only is effective because it changes the original, not because it is great in itself.

[tdalton]

But IMO it only is effective because it changes the original, not because it is great in itself.

 

This isn't really something that I see as a valid criticism of it.  The vast majority of the gunbarrels (Dr. No excluded) have featured riffs on the James Bond Theme, at least up to that point in the franchise.  If it's only good because it changes the original, then the only good gunbarrel arrangement was featured in From Russia With Love, since it's all been a riff on that particular one from there on out.  Kamen took the piece of music that I'm sure he was either told he had to use or felt like he had to use since it was well established tradition at that point, and did something different with it.  That's what makes it great, IMO.  It fits with the tradition it's expected to stick to yet completely stands out as it's own thing.

[New Digs]

On the subject of what a Barry KTK score would have been like there is an interview from Barry in 1999. Available on YouTube - John Barry James Bond Music Radio Interview 1999 - Barry is interviewed by US radio. Speaking about Thunderball, Barry stated:

"...that was the whole joy of these movies. It was not Citizen Kane. It was just this fun comic strip...so you could get away with murder.... You could do anything really silly and that was the freedom of it and why I left [the Bond series] ultimately was because it stopped being wonderful and silly and it started to be formula. And that's when the fun went out of it. And when the fun goes out of it there is really no point..."

Though we will never know what a Barry LTK score would have sounded like, this interview could be taken to suggest that scoring a darker 007 flick may not have been as inspiring for the composer. Who knows. I still think JB would have provided a solid score for LTK nonetheless.

[Mr_Wint]

It would've been a walk in the park for Barry to do LTK and make it work.

[Safari Suit]

I guess I'll go rogue and be the one to defend Michael Kamen's score for the film.  I like it, quite a bit actually.  There's nothing wrong with shaking up the sound of the franchise and going in a different direction every once in a while.  For my money, Barry went out on a high, as I think his score for The Living Daylights is right up there among the very best.  As they say, always leave them wanting more.

 

As for Kamen's work on Licence to Kill, I think he did a pretty good job of taking Bond in a new direction.  I absolutely love the music that accompanies the gunbarrel sequence.  Hands down the best of the franchise, and it's not even close.  His "Pam" theme is also one of my favorite tracks in the entire franchise, especially that piano bit at the end that accompanies the much (wrongly) reviled ending of the film in the pool.  

 

I've never had a problem with it either. I certainly wouldn't say it suffers in comparison with anything that came after

[DaveBond21]

 

But IMO it only is effective because it changes the original, not because it is great in itself.

 

This isn't really something that I see as a valid criticism of it.  The vast majority of the gunbarrels (Dr. No excluded) have featured riffs on the James Bond Theme, at least up to that point in the franchise.  If it's only good because it changes the original, then the only good gunbarrel arrangement was featured in From Russia With Love, since it's all been a riff on that particular one from there on out.  Kamen took the piece of music that I'm sure he was either told he had to use or felt like he had to use since it was well established tradition at that point, and did something different with it.  That's what makes it great, IMO.  It fits with the tradition it's expected to stick to yet completely stands out as it's own thing.

 

 

I really like the LTK gunbarrel music.

[trevanian]

I like the LTK gunbarrel music, but think the real departure was Barry's on OHMSS, which gives the impression Bond is out of step with the actual movie, since he barely starts walking by the point in the music when he should be shooting. I love nearly all of Barry's Bond work in the 60s (the GIRL FIGHT from FRWL and the Fort Knox raid are things that I listen to pretty much 30 times a year, at least), but that OHMSS open just still feels weird. 

[sharpshooter]

I really like the LTK gunbarrel music.

I do as well. When the white dots move across the screen it's very ominous. However in terms of dark/melancholy gunbarrel music, I prefer Serra's Goldeneye arrangement which doesn't play the Bond theme with any fanfare. 

[mattjoes]

I think Kamen's style of composing makes the film feel dangerous in a way that Barry perhaps wouldn't have aimed for. Barry is superb at composing dark, suspenseful themes, but because his music is so expressive and adheres so closely to a defined structure, it has a feeling of inevitability - it's a natural result of his trying to make the film come together, as clearly as possible, as an emotional, narrative and sonic experience. Kamen's music, on the other hand, is rawer and emphasizes texture over melody, and as such it lends itself better to creating a feeling of inmediacy, a sensation that anything can happen any second, and there's no way of knowing where the story is going to take you.

 

I haven't listened to the complete The Day of the Locust score, but even the cue mentioned above can't shake that feeling of inevitability. The White Buffalo, as dark as it is, is mostly the same; however, it does contain an interesting meeting point between Kamen and Barry's styles in the Night Visitor cue.

 

Listen from 0:00 to 0:52:

 

Still, I imagine if Barry had scored Licence to Kill, he would've come up with something like the first half of Exercise at Gibraltar. Not as lyrical as say, Moonraker, but lyrical nonetheless.

Edited by mattjoes, 25 May 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Mr_Wint]

I think Kamen's style of composing makes the film feel dangerous in a way that Barry perhaps wouldn't have aimed for. Barry is superb at composing dark, suspenseful themes, but because his music is so expressive and adheres so closely to a defined structure, it has a feeling of inevitability - it's a natural result of his trying to make the film come together, as clearly as possible, as an emotional, narrative and sonic experience. Kamen's music, on the other hand, is rawer and emphasizes texture over melody, and as such it lends itself better to creating a feeling of inmediacy, a sensation that anything can happen any second, and there's no way of knowing where the story is going to take you.
 
I haven't listened to the complete The Day of the Locust score, but even the cue mentioned above can't shake that feeling of inevitability. The White Buffalo, as dark as it is, is mostly the same; however, it does contain an interesting meeting point between Kamen and Barry's styles in the Night Visitor cue.
 
Listen from 0:00 to 0:52:

 
Still, I imagine if Barry had scored Licence to Kill, he would've come up with something like the first half of Exercise at Gibraltar. Not as lyrical as say, Moonraker, but lyrical nonetheless.

I agree that Kamen's style is very different from Barrys. Actually, to be more specific, Kamen's music is a real mess and Barry's music is the opposite of that.

[quantumofsolace]

http://www.denofgeek...licence-to-kill

[AMC Hornet]

All this time I thought Sanchez was a cocaine baron, but since Max mentions heroin five times, I guess I must have been wrong.

"“When you’re up to your knees,” snarls Sanchez, “you’re gonna beg to tell me everything. When you’re up to your ankles, you’ll kiss my arse to kill you.” The above line, for me, is the zingiest."

I always got that one wrong too. I guess I just don't qualify as a geek. Oh well.

[iBond]

Ah, the "Vampire hair".  I must say I didn´t find it too strange this time.  It´s actually just slicked back for the casino sequence.  Back then, people did slick their hair back for festive occasions, and it was considered well coiffed.

 

Some day, people will snicker about the buzz cut (well, not exactly, but the very short style) of Craig´s films.

 

 

 

I'll take the combed back hairstyle over the lame Skyfall buzz cut any day.

Edited by iBond, 07 July 2015 - 04:58 PM.