31 replies to this topic

[Hansen]

Direct quote from OHMSS - chapter 1 page 2 & 3 ;-)

 

 

"Impatiently, Bond lit a cigarette, pulled his shoulders out of their slouch and slammed the mawkish memories back into their long-closed file. Today, he was a grown-up, a man with years of dirty, dangerous memories - a spy. He was not sitting in this concrete hideout to sentimentalize about a pack of scrubby, smelly children on a beach scattered with bottle-tops and lolly-sticks an fringed by a sea thick with sun-oil and putrid with the main drains of Royale. He was there, he had chosen to be here, to spy. To spy on a woman."

 

 

[RMc2]

Beautiful passage

 

What was Mendes saying? I missed it.

[Hansen]

This is more about his focus on Bond experiencing some trauma during his childhood (à la Batman) and using this for characterization in Skyfall and Spectre.

To me, this is totally un-Bond and extremely far from what Fleming wrote (and this is one of the proves)

[Harmsway]

Your reading of Mendes' remarks is a little off, Hansen.

Spoiler

There isn't much emphasis on Bond's childhood trauma here. The emphasis in SPECTRE is on Oberhauser's backstory, which is what Mendes is hinting at when he talks about the second part of Bond's childhood.

[univex]

Besides, the reading of that particular scene indicates that Bond makes an active effort not to think about his childhood, hence, we immediately are aware of a trauma. It´s a very defensive dynamic, that one that Fleming describes, and a very very aggressive one as well. "(...) slammed the mawkish memories back into their long-closed file", I suppose the offense is the best defense in Bond´s case, even if it is against himself and his memories. There is plenty of character drama in the Fleming books, and some of it harkens back to Bond´s childhood, even if it´s not explicitly on the page. That said, Harms is very much correct about SP.

[JCRendle]

This is more about his focus on Bond experiencing some trauma during his childhood (à la Batman) and using this for characterization in Skyfall and Spectre.

To me, this is totally un-Bond and extremely far from what Fleming wrote (and this is one of the proves)

 

Though Fleming did write about Bond's childhood, including a trauma - Bond's Parents dying in the climbing accident when he was 11. We know where he lived after that (Pett Bottom) with his Aunt, and which schools he attended - Eton and Fettes. Bond may not have liked to think about his childhood, but it was by no means unexplored in Fleming's writings.

[thecasinoroyale]

I have to say, with what I've allowed myself to know and not know about 'Spectre', hearing that we are going to have elements going back to Bond's childhood DID make me a little underwhelmed, this this again will have an under-current of childhood trauma, the old origin story still going strong and it conjures up more images, like you say, akin to 'The Dark Knight Trilogy' with a big long underlying trauma that never really goes away just when you want it to.

[Hansen]

 

This is more about his focus on Bond experiencing some trauma during his childhood (à la Batman) and using this for characterization in Skyfall and Spectre.

To me, this is totally un-Bond and extremely far from what Fleming wrote (and this is one of the proves)

 

Though Fleming did write about Bond's childhood, including a trauma - Bond's Parents dying in the climbing accident when he was 11. We know where he lived after that (Pett Bottom) with his Aunt, and which schools he attended - Eton and Fettes. Bond may not have liked to think about his childhood, but it was by no means unexplored in Fleming's writings.

 

I fully agree. I just meant that to me Fleming does not use his childhood as a trauma. Plus, he does not write about Bond liking or not thinking about his childhood. It is clearly  part of the character as for any of us, but it is considered as un-relevant to analyze his actions as a grown-up

[sharpshooter]

Your reading of Mendes' remarks is a little off, Hansen.

Spoiler

There isn't much emphasis on Bond's childhood trauma here. The emphasis in SPECTRE is on Oberhauser's backstory, which is what Mendes is hinting at when he talks about the second part of Bond's childhood.

Indeed, and really, I'd say Skyfall's portrayal of Bond and his childhood is faithful to that Fleming passage.

 

Bond doesn't properly address his childhood with anybody in depth. M asks if Scotland is where Bond grew up. All he replies with is 'hmm', and 'you know the answer to that, you know the whole story.' He's slamming memories back into their file - choosing not to elaborate. And he didn't sentimentalise about his childhood home either - "I always hated this place." 

Edited by sharpshooter, 02 March 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Hansen]

Besides, the reading of that particular scene indicates that Bond makes an active effort not to think about his childhood, hence, we immediately are aware of a trauma. It´s a very defensive dynamic,

Psychiatrist blabla, no ?

Because Bond considers it as not important, we have to conclude that this is a sign of a trauma ? A little bit insidious as an argument, no ?

[univex]

 

Besides, the reading of that particular scene indicates that Bond makes an active effort not to think about his childhood, hence, we immediately are aware of a trauma. It´s a very defensive dynamic,

Psychiatrist blabla, no ?

Because Bond considers it as not important, we have to conclude that this is a sign of a trauma ? A little bit insidious as an argument, no ?

 

 

Not insidious at all. That´s how a writer does character development without having to use a common place.  And please do take notice: I didn´t say he had a trauma, I said we immediately are aware of a trauma, or the possibility of it. Yes, that is how psychology finds its way through language. More in the Lacan vein of things, if you ask me. And no, it´s not Psychiatrist blabla, perhaps it´s psychoanalytical blabial, yes, but those are two distinct things, my friend. And the thing is, Bond doesn´t consider it as not important, not at all, it´s so important to him that he chooses to "slam the mawkish memories". I´d say they are very very important, if you consider their weight. That is why he keeps them in the "long-closed file". I´d say the way you´re reading it is very anti-psychology blabla Just one more thing, if someone considers working in the intelligence community, like Ian did, how much importance would you give to the Psycho-bable you talk about? Do you even know who Sir. James Moloney was in the Bond literary universe? 

[Hansen]

I do not agree. I would say that you over analyze but it is a very interesting point.
By the way, it is Molony not Moloney.

[univex]

I do not agree. I would say that you over analyze but it is a very interesting point.
By the way, it is Molony not Moloney.

Agree to disagree, then. 

Silly auto-corrector!

Wait, wait, ...isn´t it Moloney? 

[Jim]

Uh?

[Ace Roberts]

Didn't we go through this same concern about Skyfall? I don't remember reading afterwards how disappointed everyone was with how the writers handled Bond being back on home turf and the graves of his family.  Why all the concern now about how they might handle Oberhauser and his tie to Bond?  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we know more.

[Hansen]

 

I do not agree. I would say that you over analyze but it is a very interesting point.
By the way, it is Molony not Moloney.

Agree to disagree, then. 

Silly auto-corrector!

Wait, wait, ...isn´t it Moloney? 

 

Well my copies of DN, YOLT and TMWGG say Molony but internet says Moloney.

Strange...

[univex]

 

 

I do not agree. I would say that you over analyze but it is a very interesting point.
By the way, it is Molony not Moloney.

Agree to disagree, then. 

Silly auto-corrector!

Wait, wait, ...isn´t it Moloney? 

 

Well my copies of DN, YOLT and TMWGG say Molony but internet says Moloney.

Strange...

Indeed. Just checked, my copies do say Molony as well. Go figure.

[x007AceOfSpades]

Didn't we go through this same concern about Skyfall? I don't remember reading afterwards how disappointed everyone was with how the writers handled Bond being back on home turf and the graves of his family.  Why all the concern now about how they might handle Oberhauser and his tie to Bond?  Let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we know more.

Agreed. I'm still a little worried, or rather reserved, but I'd rather wait until the finished film is out to see, and then place my judgement. Even though, I did have a pretty good idea, thanks to the damned Sony leaks.

[Major Tallon]

To begin with, chapter 13 of FRWL contains a passage not too unlike the one Hansen cites.  I am not, however, particularly concerned about the movie.  It sounds like we can expect Bond's parents to be mentioned, and that may provide some motivation for his actions.  These references may disappoint fans who'd like Bond just to have a straightforward mission, but they hardly make the film a deep psychological study.  I don't expect to see Craig in tears over old faded photos of his parents, nor at some point to hear him exclaim, "Mum, Dad, how could you leave me?"  I imagine we'll see just enough of Bond's memories to provide his character some shading and depth.  That's not inconsistent with Fleming, who had Bond in later novels recall his relationship with Vesper, even though he'd earlier claimed to relegate memories of her "to the boxroom of his mind" where they're "dragged out, dispassionately examined, and then bitterly thrust back with other sentimental baggage he would rather forget" (Casino Royale, chapter 27; emphasis added).

 

If his memories are essentially consistent with that approach, I imagine most of us can cope with it.

[Vauxhall]

I think it's fair to say we'll get an indication of Bond's relationship with Hannes Oberhauser as a father figure, and then how Waltz's character feeds into that narrative. I don't expect we'll see Bond cowering in the corner cradling his childhood teddy bear. But I've been wrong before...

[Guy Haines]

Aren't we forgetting the story that "Oberhauser" originated from - Hannes Oberhauser that is? There's only a brief reference at near the end of it, but Octopussy definitely makes mention of Bond's childhood, about Oberhauser being a father figure at a time when he needed one.

 

Now where this ties in with Franz Oberhauser is anyone's guess, but having used this family name from the short story Octopussy as the name of an important character in Spectre, I'll be surprised if some reference to Bond's youth isn't at least mentioned. Does this mean, as Vauxhall says above, that Bond will go into a corner "cradling his childhood teddy bear"? I very much doubt it.

 

Bond isn't Batman. He didn't go into intelligence work because of some childhood trauma and he isn't about to fall apart if his childhood is mentioned - any more than he did in the 1962-2002 films when mention was made of the death of his wife. Fleming made brief mention of Bond's childhood from time to time but didn't dwell on it, any more than he did the mention of Vesper Lynd in OHMSS.

 

I'm not worried about this reference to Bond's youth in the new movie, but intrigued.

[Hansen]

 

Bond isn't Batman. He didn't go into intelligence work because of some childhood trauma and he isn't about to fall apart if his childhood is mentioned - any more than he did in the 1962-2002 films when mention was made of the death of his wife. Fleming made brief mention of Bond's childhood from time to time but didn't dwell on it, any more than he did the mention of Vesper Lynd in OHMSS.

 

I'm not worried about this reference to Bond's youth in the new movie, but intrigued.

I definitely agree on that, but in Skyfall was on verge of falling appart when his childhood is mentioned. I just hope that that they will not go further down this route but when I listen to Mr Mendes, I am a bit worried (and intrigued also).

 

That is what I like about Bond and IMO makes him different from other heroes. Ok, he lost his parents when he was a kid, but it did not change him into some psycho vigilante. OK, his wife is dead, but he does not have suicidal tendancies every morning (like let's say Martin Riggs). Ok, he is an alcoolhic  but he does not spend his day with a hangover in dirty clothes.

 

The guy has a backstory. He has dealt with it and does the job. That is how I see it and how I read Fleming.

[Guy Haines]

I might have missed something in SF, but apart from closing the conversation with the psychiatrist when "Skyfall" was mentioned - which I think tends to support the view that Bond wants to put the past behind him, if anything - one reference to Bond's childhood that he actually makes was how much he hated the family pile - just before he blew it up! Kincade certainly refers to the night Bond lost his parents, but after he emerges from the tunnel it's implied Bond is a hardened person - again not suggesting a boy on the brink of falling to pieces.

 

(Bond becoming a embittered alcoholic in the early part of SF - I just wonder if the screenwriters thought this might better suit Craig's Bond than having him lose his memory - as happened to Bond at the end of the novel You Only Live Twice, though if he had he could still have had his memory triggered by the news report about the attack on MI6 HQ)

 

I'll be interested to see how this storyline plays out. I have a hunch it's as much about Oberhauser's background, whoever he is, as Bond's.

[Mr_Wint]

I'll be interested to see how this storyline plays out. I have a hunch it's as much about Oberhauser's background, whoever he is, as Bond's.

Just wait and see. It's much worse than you can imagine.

[Vauxhall]

I'll be interested to see how this storyline plays out. I have a hunch it's as much about Oberhauser's background, whoever he is, as Bond's.

Just wait and see. It's much worse than you can imagine.

Let's see. As I've said before, the sub-plot changed a great deal in different drafts, so none of us really know.

[x007AceOfSpades]

 

 

I'll be interested to see how this storyline plays out. I have a hunch it's as much about Oberhauser's background, whoever he is, as Bond's.

Just wait and see. It's much worse than you can imagine.

Let's see. As I've said before, the sub-plot changed a great deal in different drafts, so none of us really know.

 

Nothing too worry about, all is well

[Call Billy Bob]

Nothing too worry about, all is well

 

[The Dove]

Hah!! I posted that myself a few months ago, after the Sony hacks...

[Call Billy Bob]

Then perhaps I should provide an alternative...

 

[x007AceOfSpades]

Then perhaps I should provide an alternative...

 

LOL! Perfect!