123 replies to this topic

[Hansen]

Back to the original subject of the topic, Fleming's Bond is a man of his time. Most of the 50's novels and before shows marks of racism and sexism. It is true for any litterature (at least English and French). For what I remember, Charteris The Saint books also show this "casual racism".

I guess this is part of the sociology of these times.

Bar those, Fleming style is extremely talented. I love his descriptions where he makes a city or a meal so vivid and entertaining.

Having just re-read LALD, the sequence in Harlem is tremenduous and the whole sequence in Jamaica with the training and the swim at night is perfect.

[Odd Jobbies]

They'd have made the same movie, since, apart from the title and the villain's name, they didn't film TMWTGG anyway.

Lol, nice

[glidrose]

The Superado v. Dustin fight makes fascinating reading. I've made it clear whose side I'm on (Dustin's).

 

But for the record I must correct several errors. Glidrose/IFP DID NOT enlist Amis to review the manuscript. Tom Maschler at Jonathan Cape did. Cape did not have the authority to re-write the manuscript or hire anybody to rewrite it. Only Glidrose/IFP had that authority. In case anybody's forgotten, Fleming's widow Ann loathed Amis with a passion. Fleming's brother Peter was none too fond of him either. If you don't believe me do you remember how long it took for Cape/Maschler/Campbell to persuade Glidrose/IFP to hire Amis? Never mind Ann Fleming's heated reaction? All these fairly prove that Amis contributed nothing to the manuscript.

 

John Cork at the IFF has seen Fleming's typescript which features Fleming's own handwritten emendations. I believe he said it is near-identical to the published work, minus some minor editorial changes. I'm speculating but I suspect these minor editorial changes are probably matters of grammar, continuity errors, research errors, etc. All of Fleming's novels underwent this process.

 

BTW, it's apparently not true that Fleming revised all his manuscripts. According to one letter from writer to publisher, Fleming was so displeased with "Thunderball" that he gave up revising it part way through and sent the typescript to Cape's with a note of apology.

 

And at the risk of keeping this debate alive... what Superado is doing is in logic called an "argument from ignorance" (argumentum ad ignorantiam). That if we can't prove Amis didn't rewrite the manuscript this therefore somehow proves that he did.

 

If anybody thinks Dustin is being unnecessary aggressive, consider all the rumors and myths that have dogged Bond scholarship for years.

 

Wot's that? The debate's over? Fantastic. Back to the merits and demerits of Fleming's books then...

 

They'd have made the same movie, since, apart from the title and the villain's name, they didn't film TMWTGG anyway.

Lol, nice

 

 

Er, no, not if the book didn't exist. But I think I already said that before you posted!

[ChickenStu]

Live And Let Die shocked me a few times with it's racial nomenclatures - but to be honest I don't really think it got any worse than that throughout the rest of Fleming's run. I actually felt he wrote a lot of his female characters as strong and capable which I'm guessing was revolutionary for its time. I think a lot of that depends on how you look at it. 

[Major Tallon]

I don't know if the "racial nomenclature" to which you refer is the word "Negro," but if so, you should be aware that in 1950's and early 1960's, that was the word used to describe Americans of ethic African descent.  You can find the word used in all sorts of magazines, newspapers, and government publications.  If you'd like to check out Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, you'll find that he used the word repeatedly.  If you check Supreme Court decisions authored by Justice Thurgood Marshall you'll find that he used the word.  The word "black" did not gain currency or acceptability until the "black power" and "black is beautiful" movement of the late 1960's.  Prior to that time, to call someone "black" was itself a deeply racist insult.  Times have changed.

[ChickenStu]

I don't know if the "racial nomenclature" to which you refer is the word "Negro," 

 

Regretfully it doesn't. You've read the book. You remember one of the chapter titles don't you? The second word of it was "Heaven". Not repeating the first word. 

[Major Tallon]

You're correct about that, ChickenStu.  In the US, that chapter was titled "Seventh Avenue," and in the recent audiobook editions, the title was given as "Negro Heaven."

[Dustin]

Dear Superado, four weeks? Fine...

 

 

Where have we been interrupted...?

Edited by Dustin, 17 June 2014 - 08:17 PM.

[ChickenStu]

You're correct about that, ChickenStu.  In the US, that chapter was titled "Seventh Avenue," and in the recent audiobook editions, the title was given as "Negro Heaven."

 

Sadly the chapter title in my UK editions has a tendency to hit one like a ton of bricks. 

[Janus Assassin]

I had a hard time getting through TMWTGG, defiantly the weakest of the Fleming novels. I had a hard time stomaching Goodnight getting run over by the train.  

[Double Naught spy]

I agree Janus Assassin.  You can tell that Fleming was in poor health by TMWTGG because of the lack of effort he spent in fleshing-out Mary Goodnight's character.  It was as if she was like a store front mannequin or something!  

[Guy Haines]

The start of TMWTGG promises a potentially fascinating book in which Bond has to be de-programmed, and we could have had a novel in which his own side does not completely trust him throughout - has the de-programming worked, might he still be under Russian control? Instead it seems that, once the unfortunate incident of almost assassinating his boss is out of the way, it's business as usual - off to Jamaica to take on not the most impressive of adversaries in the books, imho, and one or two recycled scenes - the "hoods congress" for example, a reminder of Goldfinger. And at the end, Bond is even offered a knighthood! I think Mr Fleming most likely was struggling to write this one and devise any new ideas beyond the opening scene, which almost seems like it belongs in another book - the struggle is understandable as he was in poor health, and I wonder if he was beginning to get fed up with writing a new Bond book every year?

 

I think the novel might have been more interesting if the "brainwashing" theme was sustained throughout - with Bond in conflict with the villains and not completely trusted by his own suspicious superiors who would be prepared to kill him if he showed signs of going off the rails again (Though, admittedly, M wonders if by sending 007 against Scaramanga he has signed Bond's death warrant.)

 

Perhaps if the storyline had been taken up by a continuation author - a Kingsley Amis? - this might have happened.

[Hansen]

You're correct about that, ChickenStu.  In the US, that chapter was titled "Seventh Avenue," and in the recent audiobook editions, the title was given as "Negro Heaven."

In French edition, the chapter is entitled "The black paradise" which is less controversial

[glidrose]

I think Mr Fleming most likely was struggling to write this one and devise any new ideas beyond the opening scene, which almost seems like it belongs in another book - the struggle is understandable as he was in poor health, and I wonder if he was beginning to get fed up with writing a new Bond book every year?

Yep. Fleming complained he was running out of steam. He even asked his publishers to hold back publication for a year so that he could radically rethink and rewrite the novel.

Despite what fans think, I do believe that even had Fleming lived for more years this would have been the final novel.

[Guy Haines]

Hi glidrose,

 

I'll suggest something else, which I held back from in my last post. I wonder if the author might have planned finally to kill Bond off? I wonder if, had Ian Fleming lived a while longer, he might have written a Bond book in which 007 does not survive - either in a radical revision of TMWTGG that you mention, or a novel following that one? (Or, as an alternative, I wonder if in a rewrite of TMWTGG the brainwashing might have been more of a element, leaving a question mark over Bond's future as an agent, even if he did survive?)

 

It isn't as if Fleming hadn't left readers wondering before - the end of the novel FRWL, for example. (In YOLT, of course, we readers know that Bond survives even if his superiors don't, the question is will Bond return? - the opening of TMWTGG providing the rather shocking answer.) As one of the screen Bonds, Daniel Craig's, remarks in CR 2006 - "Well, I understand double-0s have a very short life span." Bond has done extremely well to last as long as he has.

 

We'll never know if, one day, a Bond novel might have been written in which 007 finally meets his demise, or appears to, but if Fleming really was tiring of writing about Bond it might not have come as too much of a surprise.

[Dustin]

Fleming repeatedly expressed his feeling of being through with Bond. The character that had originally been a kind of pressure valve for his adventurous fantasies - often bordering on the fantastic - had gradually become a burden that forced him to come up with new and outrageous stuff every year. Fleming felt his imagination let him down and that the task had become ever more demanding with each new book, effectively killing the fun for him.

On a couple of occasions he also proposed joint ventures with Rex Stout and Len Deighton, and it's not entirely clear how jokingly or serious he really was about such proposals. It's noteworthy in this context how evidently fascinated Fleming was by authors with a huge output. When he met with Georges Simenon not long before his untimely death, Fleming expressed great respect for his constant quality and output. Where Fleming had to sit down once a year to produce a Bond book Simenon just felt an urge that another book was struggling to come out and sat down to help it come into the world. It would seem this rarely happened to Fleming, not in this way at any rate.

But would Fleming ever have killed Bond? Well, he already missed two good chances to do so. And whatever his personal feelings about his character might have been, Fleming also nearly always was driven by a healthy business sense and a strong motive to turn his work into a reliable income for himself and his family. Personally I can see him devising schemes to turn 007 into a brand and let other authors write Bond stories a la The Saint or other popular hero series. But putting a definite end to his creation - no, I don't really see that. I think YOLT already revealed what Fleming felt would be a fitting fate for Bond, a simple life with simple pleasures, far from the ghosts of his past.

Edited by Dustin, 20 June 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Double-Oh Agent]

Another thing to consider is that had Ian Fleming's health improved and he'd survived, his attitude towards writing and his ability to more easily come up with story ideas likely would have improved too. For one thing, the Thunderball trial and all its stress and uncertainty would have been over which no doubt would have freed up his creativity and allowed him to go about business as usual. Also, he would have lived to have seen Goldfinger's premiere and its smashing success worldwide as a film. He'd always wanted Bond to be an unqualified hit onscreen and with Goldfinger he'd have had it, and who knows how much pleasure, satisfaction, and rejuvenation that would have given him toward writing more 007 novels.

[Dustin]

Surely a possible development. Though I myself think if Fleming had recovered he might possibly have been tempted to take a more literary path again. He always had aspirations in this regard and YOLT shows he never completely buried them, not even after TSWLM's - relative - failure.

Then again Fleming might also have decided to write different books altogether, or about another character. He felt himself Bond had become a struggle even before the Thunderball lawsuit, he might have given himself a break of a few years.

All impossible to know. TMWTGG remains his last work, the only sendoff Bond will ever get by his creator.

Edited by Dustin, 21 June 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

And I must admit I like TMWTGG very much and consider it a worthy last book.

[FlemingBond]

of course the basic-ness of TMWTGG kind of added to speculation that someone else finished it , right?

[Double Naught spy]

On the subject of Fleming's use of the *ahem* N-word and my fellow posters obvious offense to it -  I guess it's probably just as well that Tarantino never got a shot at a 007 film!   

 

Personally, I've never quite understood how anyone could be offended by a mere word.  Nor can I understand how anyone would willingly (intentional or unintentionally) telegraph to those with ill will in their hearts that a simple word could hurt them.  It would be like Superman wearing a Please don't expose me to Kryptonite sign on his cape!  Why give your enemies more arrows for their quiver?  My goodness, what ever happened to the adage sticks and stones... ? 

 

For me, it is all about the context.  If someone insults me by calling me a name, I wouldn't be pissed over the use of the word, but rather the fact that they were trying to insult me.  The word itself doesn't matter, but the intention behind it does.  And by that logic, the less words I allow myself to be offended by, the less ammunition that person has. 

 

The fact that Fleming (and to a lesser extent Tarantino) isn't using THAT word as an insult or slur puzzles me as to how anyone could be offended by it's use in their works.  So, if Fleming's skin happened to be a darker shade, would it suddenly be OK with everyone for him to use THAT word in his novels?  You know, I'm all about double-ohs, but when it comes to double-standards, I call foul.  Now if someone can provide proof that Fleming was a racist-bastard, I'm willing to recant my opinion of him.  However, given the fact that he helped defeat an entire Nazi empire, who was dedicated to the ideas of racial superiority, I really don't think I'll be seeing proof anytime soon.  Speaking of Nazis - this knee-jerk offense to words (next up: offensive ideas!) leads nowhere except book bans and big-ass bonfires - and I don't think any of us want to go there again.

Edited by Double Naught spy, 21 June 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Iceskater101]

I had a hard time getting through TMWTGG, defiantly the weakest of the Fleming novels. I had a hard time stomaching Goodnight getting run over by the train.  

 

She gets run over by a train?!?! WHAT!? I have to read this one. 

 

My plan is to ignore the racism and sexism. I want to read the book focusing on James Bond as a character. Right now I am reading another book because I took a break from Fleming's novels. After I finish that book, I am going back to Live and Let Die and forcing myself to read it. I am going to read it every night before I go to bed until I finish it. I actually did like Casino Royale a lot when I read it. 

[Guy Haines]

Run over? Not exactly!

 

But getting back to the other books.

 

I still think you might like Moonraker, the novel. If you can get past the mid 1950s gaming club stuff, which will remind you of Casino Royale, you have (1) a leading lady who isn't particularly impressed with Bond, (2) the first of the "science fiction" elements which became part and parcel of (some of) the films and (3) a colourful villain, far more so than the Drax of the film. "Sir Hugo" is one of my favourite bad guys - and I like the idea that the "thick as clotted cream" establishment in my country could have been completely conned by him, and only M & Bond begin to suspect that he's a "wrong 'un".

[Odd Jobbies]

Moonraker also has my second favourite epilogue (after YOLT). Wonderfully somber, bittersweet and down to earth. I can imagine this really impressing with Amis.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 23 June 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Guy Haines]

Moonraker also has my second favourite epilogue (after YOLT). Wonderfully somber, bittersweet and down to earth. I can imagine this really impressing with Amis.

Yes, the ending was unexpected from Bond's standpoint. He's used to losing the girl through death, or her turning out to be a wrong 'un, or just going off into the sunset with her (Until the next adventure when she's gone, of course!)

 

But something as mundane, in Bond's world, as this? And yet he should have expected it. Gala did reveal a clue, it's just that Bond didn't take it seriously.

[Odd Jobbies]

 

Moonraker also has my second favourite epilogue (after YOLT). Wonderfully somber, bittersweet and down to earth. I can imagine this really impressing with Amis.

Yes, the ending was unexpected from Bond's standpoint. He's used to losing the girl through death, or her turning out to be a wrong 'un, or just going off into the sunset with her (Until the next adventure when she's gone, of course!)

 

But something as mundane, in Bond's world, as this? And yet he should have expected it. Gala did reveal a clue, it's just that Bond didn't take it seriously.

 

A very memorably downbeat ending giving us the most concise, yet illuminating glimpse at the loneliness of Bond's life between missions.

 

One bond girl that did get mentioned in the following book was DAF's Tiffany Case. In FRWL Fleming writes:

 

...Tiffany found Bond too difficult to live with and returned to the United States with an American military officer, apparently intending to marry him.

Tiffany Case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 23 June 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[JamesBondBlog]

In terms of the race issue, and sexism, and so forth, I would just say it is very easy for someone to sit here in 2014 and judge someone's views from 1954.

 

It's more difficult to put ourselves in 1954 and see what the entire climate was like back then and be able to say what our own views would be.

 

In 2074, people will likely look back at us in horror and wonder how we could think and believe and accept some of the things that we do now.

[Odd Jobbies]

In 2074, people will likely look back at us in horror and wonder how we could think and believe and accept some of the things that we do now.

Yes, hopefully it will have gone full circle back to rampant misogyny....

 

 

only joking, of course  ;D 

[Guy Haines]

I'll tell you how I'm getting through the Bond novels at the moment, and will do over the summer - by listening to them. I've started listening to the "Bond Reloaded" CDs - partly driving to and from work and then at home. It's interesting to hear each novel read by a different actor. And in view of the comments about racism and sexism above, it will be interesting to hear "Dr No" ,read by Ghanaian born British actor Hugh Quarshie, and "The Spy Who Loved Me", read by DAD star Rosamund Pike.  Each CD set ends with a few minutes of commentary about the book from the reader - I've already heard Bill Nighy's reading of Moonraker - and the insights of the actors mentioned, and the other actors who are each reading a Bond book, should be interesting also.

[Janus Assassin]

I'm reading Live and Let Die now and I'm absolutely loving it so far.