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So... Craig Era mirroring Brosnan Era?


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#1 Colossus

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 09:16 PM

Let's get this out of the way: I love the Brosnan era. But honestly, when "Bond Begins" euphoria happened in 2006 people thought we are coming to something new... something unlike we've seen. Yet the first one Casino was great, then reality started to sink in with the next one Quantum of Solace which like Tomorrow Never Dies which is generally regarded as something lesser than the first outing. Then followed Skyfall which eerily was similar to World Is Not Enough in having a more gloomy feel despite being more focal on characters over the previous one (although the previous one could also have that with the revenge factor but that's too common a motive these days). 

 

I post this because i assumed with "Bond Begins" and that first Studio picture of Craig with long slicked back hair, that this felt like literally the 1953 image of a James Bond. If the direction they are going is going along with that classical Fleming approach then that's good, but if they are not doing that and instead going for something that revitalizes these movies for their own and leaving behind the dinosaur era of the past, that they stand on their own, is also accepted i agree and i'm all for that, but as of now it appears neither and is replicating the previous era too closely. I only hope the fourth outing just blows everything out of the water though. Perhaps this is all intentional, and they are EXTREMELY ambitious and the gloomyness of the first three was him coming out of a stupor and the fourth one he will have earned his joy and we'll see something unique. That joy was felt in much of CR btw so here's hoping.



#2 Leon

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 12:39 AM

I wouldn't put too much faith in the producers. Basically they always promise the same array of elements in some combination or other. They are like standard marketing lines. They have to try and get the attention of the widest range of movie-goers they can, so they always will promise plenty of action, exotic locations, whatever the flavour of the season is (in Hollywood, ie, dark and gritty etc) and 'a great Bond movie' - then they will try and slip in plenty of mentions of Ian Fleming, re-reading books or nods to the classic Bond films, for the more attached Bond fans like us.

With Casino Royale they had an entire and rather quintessential Ian Fleming novel to work from, so even Purvis & Wade were able to write a decent screenplay. The casino/hotel and torture/recuperation section of the film clearly showing up as notably more interesting than the rest of what happens - ie, the writers attempt to expand the book's story into more of an action movie. (IMO they could have just had the Bahamas scenes and not done the whole Miami airport action sequence stuff)

Quantum of Solace is, even considering the writer's strike delays they had, a rather clear example of forced creativity. I know it's tough these days to keep cranking out Bond movies anyway, but still, it felt more obvious here than usual. They had to continue on from the last film and keep a plot going from old loose ends, as well as then tie up extra things such as Vesper's ex-lover at the end to demonstrate Bond's tiniest bit of solace/closure he gets from knowing Vesper did love him. I suppose Quantum of Closure would have been an even worse choice of movie title.. The nature of this meant the Bond character had to be pretty miserable for most of the film, which gets a bit boring. The villain, let's face it, sucked. Amalric is a really good actor, and I know his good work, so it was very obvious that his character, dialogues and the general writing of the film was poor.

Skyfall was going with The Dark Knight style. I enjoyed it as much as Casino Royale, but I do find myself just getting a bit bored of all the 'dark and gritty' BS, it's a fad, and the constant, weak attempts to be 'different' with the Craig films. Double crosses, Bond going rogue, 'strong' female characters who wind up being weak and needing rescue anyway.. They are, in my opinion, lacking the creative spark that they could have. I can't figure out why they kept Purvis & Wade so long, they are terrible writers. Even if you enjoy some of their Bond movies they are not well written.. they may have been produced to very glamorous and professional degrees but baaad dialogues, two-dimensional characters galore and a glut of hommages and lack of originality.

So the producers et al will keep advertising their franchise in much the same way, and while they clearly seem to have the potential, especially with Craig, to make some awesome classic Bond films they, to me at least, have yet to find a suitable writer. If with the next film they keep that continuity of retro stylish flair and the quality of the last film then they have a strong chance to make just a classic Bond film. Just a good Bond story, forget forcing the intrigue with the same old double agent theme or rogue Bond or trying to top all the action from the last film in terms of scale or feeling it necessary to make it all about bloody terrorism and computers and constant mobile phones - it's not needed. A good story is a good story and they seem to have forgotten that (in Hollywood in general).



#3 Satorious

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 06:22 PM

I don't put too much thought into it - although the series has always followed one particular pattern: things become too overblown or daft and then it gets the "Back to basics" approach in the next film. eg. OHMSS after YOLT, FYEO after Moonraker, Casino Royale after DAD.



#4 Professor Pi

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 08:40 PM

Interesting.  As both eras were started with Martin Campbell directing, there's another similarity.  I'm always amazed at the pass Skyfall gets for basically rehashing The World Is Not Enough.  However, Craig's Bond films are much, much better than Brosnan's.  It's the subtleties, better dialog and acting.  Many of the similarities you point out may be due to Purvis and Wade writing and mining the overlapping Bond tenures.  With a new writer for the first time in fifteen years with John Logan, things may turn out differently.

 

The second movies of an actor's run--FRWL, TMWTGG, LTK, TWINE, QoS--all share commonalities:  revenge oriented, more character driven, violent, and not following traditional Bond formulae.  The fourth installment is grander, bigger, more popular, and derivative--Thunderball, Moonraker, Die Another Day.  While Skyfall has been the most popular Bond ever, it has also been sharply polarizing in some corners of the fan base.  But now with a male M again, Moneypenny and Q established, and Craig's Bond evolved from the brooding, inexperienced mess he started out as, the table is set for more traditional Bond fare next time out.

 

I'm expecting a big fun Bond for Craig's fourth, and then a dark, faithful adaptation of the Castle of Death scenes to end his five picture deal.  Then possibly a one-off for a sixth.


Edited by Professor Pi, 28 December 2013 - 08:40 PM.


#5 ggl

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 10:05 PM

Interesting point of view, Colossus.

 

I see the similarities and I think that in Bond 24 they are trying to put Craig where he would never have been, i.e., underwater (Bahamas?) and skiing. So, we´ll have something bigger and action oriented? Maybe...

 

For me, it´s not bad to have a DAD every four films, if after that we have a CR... you know what I mean. ;) B)



#6 Hansen

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 11:35 PM

i quite agree Leon, but i am not as keen as you on SF.

For me, on this one, they just went too far just to make something differrnt and they forgot what Bond is.

Still, as many of you, I am looking forward for the next one and I do expect it tobe Thunderball-like.



#7 billy007

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:17 AM

Consider the the third film of each actor to be his best.
GOLDFINGER- The blue print for all films- the pre title sequence is a movie in itself.
SPY WHO LOVED ME- Sir Roger demonstrates he can act.
THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH- "I never miss"
SKYFALL- 007 IS BACK!

wHAT IF DALTON HAD DONE A THIRD?

Edited by billy007, 29 December 2013 - 05:18 AM.


#8 dtuba

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 08:07 AM

SF is very much like TWINE. (Except it's good. :P )

I see a lot of TWINE and QOS in Skyfall....it's like Mendes watched those two films and said, "I can improve on this".

 

SF is very much Craig's TSWLM in a lot of ways. Big box office hit, middle eastern location(s), homages to previous films, etc. It's the film that cements Craig in the role without much doubt.



#9 Guy Haines

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:13 AM

SF is loosely reminiscent of TWINE in some ways - the most obvious reference back being the explosion at MI6 HQ. But it also reminds one of DAD, in that the screenwriters threw in some references to previous films, but a little more subtly. (Examples - Bond's order to Eve in the casino - "Stop touching your ear" - from CR. Or, when he's tied to a chair in Silva's lair - "Station H? Am I right? Hong Kong?" - I've italicised the words which made me think of the interrogation of Mr White in QoS. Come to think of it, Silva's obvious appreciation of Bond made me think of Le Chiffre's admiration of his physique in CR. The thing about these examples, if that's what they are, is that unlike the ones in DAD, the viewer doesn't sit there thinking "That scene is just like the one in...." before waiting to spot the next one. They just happened, and you think afterwards, or after more than one viewing, that you've seen that scene somewhere before.)

 

One other aspect of SF is the way the story inverted some traditional items of Bond. For example, the final showdown in Scotland - we're used to Bond attacking the villain's lair, but here, it's the villain and his acolytes who are attacking Bond's home place.



#10 Grard Bond

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:55 AM

I'm not sure all these examples are put deliberately into this movie.

If you pick a random Bond movie you probably get as many similarities with other Bondmovies.


Edited by Grard Bond, 29 December 2013 - 10:56 AM.


#11 Professor Pi

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:41 PM

I'm not sure all these examples are put deliberately into this movie.

If you pick a random Bond movie you probably get as many similarities with other Bondmovies.

 

I think they are, though.  "What makes you think this is my first time?"  The difference is, in Skyfall, there's a twist on the scene instead of just a rehash.  For example, Bond fights a guy on top of a train, ala Octopussy, but this time he fails and falls.  Bond breaks back into M's home again, but this time she's in trouble for something she did, instead of for what he did as in CR.  I always thought SF's chair scene was recalling CR's, but it's a twist on QoS's now that I think about it.  The tortured has become the torturer.  And the finale at Bond's home, indeed the titular reveal, turning on its head the ending of every Bond movie, whilst at the same time recalling the destruction of the house in CR's conclusion. 

 

Most of these references were organic and flowed from the story, just like in TSWLM, except for the DB5 appearance.  There's no way to explain that (it's different than CR's Aston Martin what with the steering wheel and gadgets.)  Other references are more subtle, like the stolen painting in Skyfall's Shanghai scene ala Dr. No.  Blink and you miss it.

 

Hmm...must watch that film again soon.



#12 Mr_Wint

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 08:42 PM

(...) unlike the ones in DAD, the viewer doesn't sit there thinking "That scene is just like the one in...." before waiting to spot the next one.

 

To be fair, it is not like DAD is jam-packed with references to older films.

There are a few deliberate references. But the lists with 200+ references, as produced by some fans, are a complete joke.

 

Here are some from IMDb:

 

"Bond and Jinx receive electric shocks from a villain - Oddjob was killed by electrocution."

 

"Jinx's backward fall to escape echoes Magda's exit from Bond's suite."

 

"Bond puts the Alvarez Clinic ticket inside his right jacket pocket, and later pulls it out of the left one. In 'Licence to Kill', Bond puts his airplane ticket first into his inner left jacket pocket, only to inexplicably remove it later on from his inner right jacket pocket."



#13 plankattack

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:01 AM

To be fair, it is not like DAD is jam-packed with references to older films.
There are a few deliberate references. But the lists with 200+ references, as produced by some fans, are a complete joke.


I have to disagree as to DAD not being jam-packed with references - it is so totally jammed with the things. It was deliberately riddled with references (explicitly stated by producers and directors, who said you could find nods to each of the films up until that point) to reflect its 40th anniversary status. At the time, I will admit to feeling that they worked to the film's advantage, but in hindsight, they do get in the way a little, IMHO

But as to other Bonds - yep, I think every director throws in a reference or two. It's almost out of respect to the series ththat they are part of.

#14 Leon

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 03:15 AM

 

To be fair, it is not like DAD is jam-packed with references to older films.
There are a few deliberate references. But the lists with 200+ references, as produced by some fans, are a complete joke.


I have to disagree as to DAD not being jam-packed with references - it is so totally jammed with the things. It was deliberately riddled with references (explicitly stated by producers and directors, who said you could find nods to each of the films up until that point) to reflect its 40th anniversary status. At the time, I will admit to feeling that they worked to the film's advantage, but in hindsight, they do get in the way a little, IMHO

 

Indeed, DAD  was almost entirely made of references, Mr_Wint. There are plenty of the obvious ones, nods, winks and 'hommages' as well as entire chunks of the plot based around previous films and some more subtle less annoying ones:
 

  • the entire collection of past Bond gadgets all stored in a room
  • the overblown Ursula Andress bikini shot
  • the ejector seat/'i never joke about my work'
  • the Union Jack parachute
  • the diamond satellite (DAF)
  • solar-powered super laser weapon (TMWTGG)
  • Bond being discharged before escaping and going rogue
  • the mirror room with crazy lighting
  • Bond being filmed with a lady from behind a mirror in hotel bedroom
  • the Goldfinger-esque laser table scene
  • the Thunderball re-breather
  • laser watch
  • 'Diamonds are Forever' written across the magazine on the plane
  • TLD style bail out the back of a crashing military carrier plane in a vehicle (heli instead of jeep)
  • outrigger ski car
  • Q telling Bond how many watches (films) he has been through
  • Picks up the book 'Birds of the West Indies' by James Bond

 

I feel like I've forgotten some..



#15 tdalton

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:30 AM

I suppose that there is some sort of pattern being repeated here, as we do see multiple ideas being repeated in both the Brosnan and Craig eras.  The repeated elements have been done much better in the Craig Era, but it would be nice if they could come up with something truly original the next time out.  Bond 24 definitely should be an entirely original affair, especially after the near-remake of The World Is Not Enough that Skyfall turned out to be.



#16 bill007

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:55 AM

With Craig being the 6th Bond, I suppose we could draw conclusions that EON may be affecting the writing teams to follow a particular repeating formula.

 

I, for one, do not give in to that line of analysis.

 

I do, however, believe that the current Craig series is providing us with a film version of the revelation of a novice 00 to a more mature and experienced agent.

 

We are now at the point where Bond was circa Dr. No, or From Russia With Love.

 

Which is where I joined the party.

 

And I'm loving the Hell out of this journey.

 

At least, until invisible Aston Martins start showing up again.



#17 Mr_Wint

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:10 AM

Indeed, DAD  was almost entirely made of references, Mr_Wint. There are plenty of the obvious ones, nods, winks and 'hommages' as well as entire chunks of the plot based around previous films and some more subtle less annoying ones:
 

  • the entire collection of past Bond gadgets all stored in a room
  • the overblown Ursula Andress bikini shot
  • the ejector seat/'i never joke about my work'
  • the Union Jack parachute
  • the diamond satellite (DAF)
  • solar-powered super laser weapon (TMWTGG)
  • Bond being discharged before escaping and going rogue
  • the mirror room with crazy lighting
  • Bond being filmed with a lady from behind a mirror in hotel bedroom
  • the Goldfinger-esque laser table scene
  • the Thunderball re-breather
  • laser watch
  • 'Diamonds are Forever' written across the magazine on the plane
  • TLD style bail out the back of a crashing military carrier plane in a vehicle (heli instead of jeep)
  • outrigger ski car
  • Q telling Bond how many watches (films) he has been through
  • Picks up the book 'Birds of the West Indies' by James Bond
  • Sound effects from DN gunbarrel.

 

I feel like I've forgotten some..

 

 

"entirely made of references". Wow. Talk about overreacting...

I improved your list a little bit, removing the ones that are obviously unintentional.



#18 Grard Bond

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:08 AM

Bill007,

not quite, the Bond from Skyfall is a much more mature and older agent than the Connery-Bond from Dr. No and FRWL.


Edited by Grard Bond, 31 December 2013 - 01:25 AM.


#19 Hansen

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:02 PM

And I thought that the Craig era was bringing something new... ;)

Well, it is time for some original Bond story, no ?



#20 Colossus

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:43 PM

Bill007,

not quite, the Bond from Skyfall is a much more mature and older agent than the Connery-Bond from Dr. No and FRSL.

 

Wait how is this possible? Wasn't the whole point of him in CR with the crew cut that he was a complete greenhorn, rough around the edges straight from the military? Did he mature over the space of 3 movies at faster speed than Con-Bond in his first few????



#21 Guy Haines

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 12:56 AM

I've mentioned this before, but someone - I can't recall if it was in a review, or whatever - commented about SF that it looked as if, in the four years between 2008 and 2012, Craig's Bond had completed all those missions that his predecessors had undertaken, and had indeed gone from rookie to veteran. It wasn't meant to be taken literally, that he had re-done everything from DN to DAD -rather, I think what the commentator meant was that this Bond had experienced much since he got the issues of CR & QoS out of his system. He was no longer the new Double-O agent. And in SF, he'd reached a tipping point - literally, when Eve inadvertently shoots him, and also when he decides, temporarily, to go AWOL/"retire". When he returns, he believes both M and he are "played out".

 

There is another way of looking at it, though. That he's still not the fully formed article, four years on - rather, he's developed an awkward attitude, for whatever reasons. (Being shot by his own side when he thought he could have finished the job being one, probably.) He wanted "out" in CR - only Vesper's death and betrayal stopped that. At the end of SF, however, he seems a much more settled Bond, one ready to accept assignments from the new M "with pleasure".



#22 Grard Bond

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 01:22 AM

Colossus,

that's what my biggest problem with Skyfall was and is....

 

in CR and Quantum you have the beginning of his carreer: we are hearing many times that Bond is not the agent yet, whom we know and love,

but suddenly in Skyfall you got a Bond who is a lot older and maybe even too old for the job and he must think about retiring (that's what is said to him by Fiennes' character).

Craig can't pass any longer for a man in his thirties, he looked suddenly a lot older, if you compared him in Skyfall to what he looked like in CR.

 

So they just skipped with Craig the years when Bond is in his best (physical) years, which I thought was a very, very strange thing to do, but maybe I was wrong?


Edited by Grard Bond, 31 December 2013 - 01:24 AM.


#23 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:04 AM

Had a strange dream last night: Brosnan was returning in a new Craig Bond, starring as a former 00-agent.  

 

Probably a result of watching the DOCTOR WHO special in which Smith starred together with previous Doctor Tennant.



#24 FlemingBond

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:18 PM

I don't really see the similarity between the eras. TWINE is nothing like QOS. Skyfall is a lot better than TWINE.

I do hope for a less dark 4thCraig movie. I think people loved loved Craig in the lighter scene's in CR. If you go back to the Connery era, those movies, like FRWL and Thunderball were serious, but still had wit, and lighter scenes.



#25 AirJordanFan93

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 10:37 AM

Colossus,

that's what my biggest problem with Skyfall was and is....

 

in CR and Quantum you have the beginning of his carreer: we are hearing many times that Bond is not the agent yet, whom we know and love,

but suddenly in Skyfall you got a Bond who is a lot older and maybe even too old for the job and he must think about retiring (that's what is said to him by Fiennes' character).

Craig can't pass any longer for a man in his thirties, he looked suddenly a lot older, if you compared him in Skyfall to what he looked like in CR.

 

So they just skipped with Craig the years when Bond is in his best (physical) years, which I thought was a very, very strange thing to do, but maybe I was wrong?

It is weird. CR and Quantum establish Craig as Bond beginning his 00 career we see him on his first missions and its established he is not the 007 we have watched in the prior films but he is a new 00 on the way to being that character. Then we get to Skyfall and its like hes become AVTAK Roger Moore who is just too old though Moores age isn't really questioned in his movies but its just an example. Its like hes a former great athelte who was the best at what he did and is now entering the twighlight of his career and trying to prove he is still the best.

 

How many years have meant to of passed between CR/Quantum and Skyfall the Bond films don't really have a cemented timeline as to when everything ocurs so are we meant to beleive this is 15 years after the events of CR/Quantum or like 2 years because if it was 2 years then why bring all this stuff up about Bond being "too old" to do the job. Craig does look a lot older than he did in CR/Quantum but 6 years passed between CR and Skyfall in real life so hes obviously going to age between movies.

 

I guess we could look at it like EON trying to say Bond is still the best action hero that even after 50 years he is still the best of the bunch if we want to look at it in that way.



#26 S K Y F A L L

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 06:44 PM

YES! All the films mirror each other though. It is mirroring the Brosnan Era like the Brosnan Era mirrored the Moore Era and how the Moore Era mirrored the Connery Era. 

 

DR, LALD, GE, CR

FRWL, TMWTGG, TND, QOS

GF, TSWLNM, TWINE, SF 

TB, MR, DAD

YOLT, FYEO

 

I bet you could find many similarities which ever way you cut it. 



#27 dtuba

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 11:58 PM

 

 

.

 

I guess we could look at it like EON trying to say Bond is still the best action hero that even after 50 years he is still the best of the bunch if we want to look at it in that way.

 

This is what I got from SF. That the whole "Bond is old" storyline was actually a subtext for the series in general.



#28 SecretAgentFan

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:53 AM

In another way, so far the Craig era mirrors the Moore era.

 

 

First film: taking over from a massively successful actor and film (DAF / DAD) and delivering a hit movie which establishes the new actor (LALD / CR).

 

Second film: following the first success with a second film that is not loved by too many but remains definitely interesting (TMWTGG / QOS).

 

Third film: landing a huge blockbuster (TSWLM / SF).

 

Fourth film: retaining the director of the third blockbusting film, definitely trying to match if not outdo the third film at the box office (MR / BOND 24).

 

 

And if BOND 24 goes over the top my argument will actually work...



#29 ChickenStu

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:02 PM

In answer to the original question - we will only see if Craig's era mimics Brosnan when Craig stops playing the role and it's handed to the next actor. 

 

The true test - will be if there is suddenly a Craig backlash with everyone saying they always secretly hated him and LOVE the new guy and he'll be the BEST BOND EVER!!! 

 

Sorry to sound cynical - but that's pretty much exactly what happened to Brosnan... so I think that will be the litmus test. 



#30 tdalton

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:50 PM

I don't see there being a backlash against Craig when he leaves.  Craig has significantly raised the bar for the franchise from where it was when Brosnan was in the role.  The films are better by leaps and bounds and Craig has been a very integral part of that, as he's very involved in the making of these films and his performances have been widely praised (the man did get a BAFTA nomination for playing James Bond).  If anything, I would suspect that the next guy will get an initial welcome to that of Craig and he'll have to work very hard to win those over who want to see Craig continue on with the role.

 

I also don't think that's the true test as to whether the Brosnan and Craig eras mirror each other.  To this point, they very much do, and if they finish up with a more fantastical film coming up, then the two eras will mirror each other nicely.  Brosnan's Era didn't end with him being looked down upon by the fan community, and Craig's most likely won't either.  Those re-evaluations aren't really part of the actors era, as that comes later on.