6 replies to this topic

[hachiman]

As I'm old enough, just, to remember the first Bond movies release, I thought I'd mention how I see Bond's place in history.

The phrase 'secret agent came into being as a book by an author whose name I forget at the beginning of the 20th century. and by the fifties the world was awash with spy characters. But Bond was by far the most popular, and the films made it as much an icon worldwide as the Beatles. It's success generated many other spy stories, in film and on tv. A measure of Bond;s impact is that despite the many rivals, Bond became, and still is, the reference used in spy spoofs and comedy sketches. The BBC radio show 'Round the Horne' had a regular sketch called 'James Blonde', a comic spy. Kenneth Williams once payed a villain in the show, confronting the hero with the words, "I must warn you Mr Blonde, I'm a karate black belt to the second dan. Yes, I'm dan dan the karate man!" In the eighties Russ Abbot had a sketch on his tv show called 'Brooke Bond'.The impact of Bond on popular culture is unequaled by any other character from literature. 

Which other secret agents are worth remembering is a matter of opinion. For me the character of Matt Helm was amusing, but those that most got my attention were Deighton's Harry Palmer and the tv series Callan, They were a downbeat alternative to Bond, portraying the spy's world as dirty and devious, rather than glamorous. But they, perhaps, are subjects for discussing elsewhere.

One more thought. I think Roger Moore would have made a wonderful Bond villain. 

 

 

[Double Naught spy]

Maybe I'm not "thinking outside the box" enough, but I can't see Roger Moore as a "Bond villain."   Considering his range as an actor, I can see him portray an "evil" character like a charming villainous rogue (think: JR Ewing from TV's Dallas) or an ambiguous "is he a good guy or bad guy?" type, or even as a "third party rogue" who plays off the conflict between 007 and the (actual) villain for his own, personal ends/profits.  But as for casting Roger Moore in the same 'over-the-top villain' pantheon of the likes of Blofeld, Goldfinger, Drax, et al... I just don't see it.  That said, I'm intrigued by your declaration and I'd (and I'm guessing plenty of other CBN posters would too) love to have you 'flesh out' your reasoning.

 

As for your overall assessment on the "secret agent" genre.  There might have precursors to 007 in the literary and cinematic world.... but they were just sub-standard prototypes.  And as for every "secret agent" who came after.... they are ALL!  'pretenders to the thrown' who have to rely on either comedy (Matt Helm, Derek Flint, etc.) or have to rely on being "overtly & dramatically realistic" (Bourne) to over-compensate for the lack of 'perfect blend' of action/drama/comedy that is the 50+ years of James Bond!

 

Don't get me wrong - I enjoy a Matt Helm, Derek Flint, or Jason Bourne film like everyone else; but there really is no difference between those films and when I hire a prostitute and ask her to don a wig that resembles my ex-wife's hairdo - they're both just lame substitutes that have taken my money and left me ultimately less-than satisfied. 

 

LONG LIVE BOND!

Edited by Double Naught spy, 06 December 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[hachiman]

Roger Moore I regard as an actor who could over act with class. He brought humour to the role of Bond, and I think he would have done the same as a Bond villain. They are larger than life characters, and that is Moore's forte, in my opinion.

I agree with you that other secret agents were sub-standard compared with Bond, though some, it should be remembered, were intended to be light hearted, Like Matt Helm. The Helm movies did have good villains, especially Nigel Green in The Wrecking Crew, my favourite Helm film. And Nancy Kwan was so cute! 

I did mention Harry Palmer and Callan, and though they are spies, I don't think they should be compared with Bond. Technically speaking they are the same genre, but the treatment of the subject was so different I don't think any comparison should be made with Bond.

Just add that I've never seen a Bond movie with Daniel Craig, He just doesn't look like a Bond, and the stories of political correctness creeping in put me off. Bond is what he is, and trying to change him to fit a modern perception of the hero, well, I think it's silly.

[Double Naught spy]

Hachiman,

 

Thanks for explaining your position further.  I agree with your assessment of Roger Moore's acting abilities completely.  I admit to still not being able to "see" him as a Bond villain - but that's more to do with my limited imagination rather than any emphatic disagreement with you.    

 

I do admit to having a weak spot for ol' Dino's Matt Helm movies.  It's been awhile, but I think it was The Silencers where he has a complete mini-bar in his car.  So right in the middle of the movie (again, if memory serves me correctly), Dean's just driving around, singing, mixing drinks and copiously downing them, all without a care in the world.  Talk about politically-incorrect!  I'm surprised the 'wonderful folks' from MADD haven't insisted on a world-wide ban on the film!  ... And to give credit where credit's due, Dino's four-wheeled bar surpassed Brosnan's champagne compartment in his Aston Martin in Goldeneye by about 30 years!

 

As for Mr. Craig, whatever he might lack in physical resemblance to "classic Bond" (which I think a lot of female fans (and perhaps even some male fans!) have absolutely no problem with ever since he popped out of the ocean in CR!  LOL), he makes up for it in his acting.  Despite the overall pluses and minuses of his three films (I personally didn't care for QOS too much), he appears to take the role very seriously and seems dedicated to making each one of his films a success.  Come to think of it, one could even argue that, the fact that he's won over a lot of 007 fans without looking like "classic Bond" is a true testament to his talents.   

 

Regarding the politically-correct (PC) aspects of his films, IMO Mr. Craig's movies aren't nearly as prolific with overt PC messages as, for example Mr. Brosnan's.   With all due respects to Mr. Brosnan's films, you had M's "misogynistic dinosaur" speech in GE, M and Moneypenny damn-near emasculating 007 during the car ride in the beginning of TND, not to mention his "filthy habit" comment in the PTS of TND.  It goes without saying that there's absolutely nothing wrong with showing that it's not just a "man's world" anymore and of course smoking is a "filthy habit."  However, the combined effect of bringing these 'enlightened attitudes' into Bond's world in that manner (IMO) served to chip away from the "classic Bond's" persona.  Fleming's Bond was not a squeaky-clean Superman who treated everyone equally.  On the contrary, he most certainly has his, *ahem* 'opinions' about the role of women, theories on homosexuals, views about other races, and so on.  And, aside from morning exercises and occasionally lamenting the need to cut back on drinking and smoking, Fleming's Bond certainly didn't show any real signs of caring too much about the effects his vices had on his health.  

 

So, if you were able to get past those "welcome to the '90's, hope you enjoy your new and improved PC world!" elements in the Brosnan-era, I think you might be pleasantly surprised by the Daniel Craig films.   He doesn't smoke or smack women on the butt (which I'd argue that Fleming's Bond likely wouldn't do either), but he does still consume plenty of alcohol (SPOILER - No car-bar yet though! - LOL), eagerly sends villains to their death, and has even called a woman a "bitch" once.  

Edited by Double Naught spy, 08 December 2013 - 02:19 AM.

[AMC Hornet]

Mr Craig... has even called a woman a "bitch" once.  

Twice.

[hachiman]

Hi Double Naught Spy,

Now you mention it, yes, the Brosnan era did have a fair bit of PC. I think I didn't notice it because Brosnan, in my view, was a perfect, well almost, Bond. He looked right, gave the part the right feel. I've made assumption about PC in the Craig era because of what I've read in reviews, perhaps I shouldn't believe all I read in newspapers! But Craig's looks put me off, he looks to serious to ever make a joke, and maybe, after decades of watching Bond movies, they just don't attract me so much. New films that is, older Bond movies have nostalgia value. So, does Craig's Bond still bed lots of women? As regards smoking, or other 'filthy habits', let's remember Sherlock Holmes used opium, and despite it now being not only badly thought of but illegal as well, Holmes opium use is still featured frequently in modern productions, like that featuring Rupert Everett as the super sleuth. I'm not expressing approval of such matters, but fictional characters of the past were obviously created in a different age, when standards were different. Though my point about Holmes and the continued reference to his drug use could, I suppose, be countered by the point that modern films of the character still place him in the time he was created.

I'll get round to seeing a Craig Bond movie in time, I'm sure, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[JohnnyWalker]

 But Craig's looks put me off, he looks to serious to ever make a joke, and maybe, after decades of watching Bond movies, they just don't attract me so much.

He jokes throughout Casino Royale for example, just without bad puns.