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Never Say Never Again: Connery's final fling 30 years on


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#1 quantumofsolace

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

A look back at the unofficial Bond movie on its thirtieth anniversary

http://uk.movies.yah...-205600611.html



#2 WhoIsYourFloor?

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 05:10 AM

This movie is just... not nearly up to par. It's such a murky-looking film. Any Bond elements in there seem totally put on. Sure Sean is good. And yeah Kim Basinger is gorgeous. But the score is horrendous. It's shockingly bad. And I consider Empire Strikes Back to be my absolute favorite movie, but Irvin Kirshner just didn't deliver with this one at all. This movie should not have ever been made.

The only cool moment is when Connery drops a guard's gun into a casino ice bucket. Other than that, there's nothing to love here. My least favorite right next to The Man With The Golden Gun.
And I actually really like Octopussy! Still, a well-written piece nonetheless. Agree to disagree. It's all Bond to me!

#3 Turn

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 02:16 PM

NSNA is a film I'm more grateful for rather than actually like, if that makes any sense. I prefer to think of it in terms of when it was released.

 

There's a number of threads here about the excitement of being a Bond fan in 1982-1983 when two films were in production, the constant possibility of Moore not returning, and the John Gardner literary series was starting, back when we only had fan clubs and magazines to keep us informed of what was going on. Starlog Magazine's double Bond issue in the winter of '83 was one of the my most exciting fan moments with both Connery and Moore on the cover. Yeah, a mere magazine cover could do that for a fan back then because it was the first real opportunity some of us had to see pics and find out more about the films.

 

You just couldn't help but be intrigued by Connery's return, although it's ultimately a letdown. I recall being thrilled by OP on release and then knowing there was more to come with NSNA was great, although I recall being disappointed.

 

If anything, it showed how EON really did have the Bond market covered the best, although, again, it's interesting to see how it's done otherwise. And for the tougher criticisms of NSNA, remember it stems from the limitations of the source material, basically TB and it's various screenplays. The original story with SPECTRE taking over the Statue of Liberty and all stands as one of the great never was items in Bond history. 



#4 Mr_Wint

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 06:30 PM

Poorly written, over-acted movie with dull action and zero excitement. Not much to celebrate, is there?



#5 Professor Pi

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:23 PM

I'm glad this movie exists, though it's a little below average.  Octopussy is better, but I think AVTAK (except for Walken) is worse.  Yes, it has a horrible soundtrack, but the title song isn't bad.  The title is rather Flemingesque (Thanks, Mrs. Connery!) and certainly better than Warhead or James Bond of the Secret Service.  Barbara Carerra is up there with the best femme fatales of the Bond universe.  The international poster features awesome artwork.  Connery gives a better performance in this than in YOLT or DAF.  Though without this movie EON might have switched Bond actors earlier, so in an odd way NSNA gives both Connery and Moore seven outings as Bond.

 

It pairs well with many other Bond movies as an interesting double bill:

 

NSNA/Casiono Royale '67 -- non-canon Bond films.  Bond retires/unretires.  Herb Alpert.  Gorgeous women.  But a long slow 5 hours!

Skyfall/NSNA -- transition to new M, themes of Bond getting old.

Octopussy/NSNA -- flashback to early 80s, side by side comparison of two most famous Bonds

Thunderball/NSNA -- how the same story translates nearly 20 years apart.  Connery starting to clock it in halfway through both films.

 

Never Say Never Again also reminds us that nobody does Bond better than EON.


Edited by Professor Pi, 07 December 2013 - 06:46 PM.


#6 Agent 76

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 06:45 PM

 

Never Say Never Again also reminds us that nobody does Bond better than EON.

 

Amen, brother!



#7 Skylla

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:00 PM

Poorly written, over-acted movie with dull action and zero excitement. Not much to celebrate, is there?

But you can say that about half of the Bond-movies. If you take Connery, Brandauer, Carrera, Casey and Fox it is definitely better than YOLT, DAF, TMWTGG, AVTAK, TWINE and DAD. And it doesn´t matter how long they make Bond - this will always be the one where Bond is older and retires with the girl: a nice end to an everlasting series. 



#8 Mr_Wint

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 09:37 AM

 

Poorly written, over-acted movie with dull action and zero excitement. Not much to celebrate, is there?

 

But you can say that about half of the Bond-movies.

 

No, I can't.



#9 hoagy

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:00 PM

Perhaps you cannot say it...but it is no less true.

 

A large number of the EON films are disappointing and downright a-w-f-u-l at least in some aspects.

 

TMWTGG -- budget Bond, or so it seemed, though filming overseas must have cost a pretty penny (no pun intended).

 

The southern sheriff in LALD and brought back -- sure, he, of all people, traveled to the Far East -- in TMWTGG.

 

Good moments spoiled with ridiculous insertions -- the Tarzan yell in OP, the Beach Boys singing in the PTS when Bond snowboarded over the water, nearly all of MR (featuring another coincidental comeback, that of Jaws in MR, but - wait !  now he met a girl -- Pippi Longstockings in Brazil ?  really ? -- and he becomes a good guy, and, don't worry, she and he won't be burned to a crisp upon re-entry or rot in space, nor, apparently, be prosecuted), the TV cop movie feel of LTK, Bond unable to run after the car that teased him with a ride in OP, Bond wearing vests and other belly disguises in OP and VTAK -- this list IS distressingly long, isn't it ?!!? -- and the Bond girl least interested in being one in VTAK (look at Tanya Roberts in Sheena, even in That 70s Show, and at how she looked in VTAK and, more importantly, her attitude [or was it just poor acting ?]), the...odd...cinematography inYOLT and greasy-Bond {and after the film and he looked SO good in TB !].

T

he latching onto blaxpoitation films in LALD, the latching onto martial arts films in TMWTGG, the latching onto Star Wars in MR.

 

The insertion of a character, a young girl hot for Bond, in FYEO -- WHY ?  FYEO was a welcome (and literal) return to earth.  She was just NOT needed !  Certainly, it was not needed to throw herself at Bond such that he had to turn her down !  Rightfully so that he did, but what was the point except to say "Our 007 is getting rather old, isn't he ?!?"

 

Relatively minor script revisions and other efforts would have improved some of these films so very much...You might find NSNA dull, and really do get it, but stupid ?  groaner moments ?  no....



#10 Mr_Wint

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 08:07 PM

Not sure what you mean with true since it is mere opinions. From my perspective, it often comes down to this: A few good moments in an otherwise terrible movie (NSNA) V.S. a few bad moments in otherwise excellent movies (EON). You do the math. A "relatively minor script revision" would not make any difference to NSNA.

 

Yes, I definitely prefer MR and AVTAK over NSNA. Not crazy about LTK, but that film has at least better direction and action than NSNA.

I am suprised that you even bring up YOLT, LALD, TMWTGG and OP which are all obviously better.
 



#11 Skylla

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 09:27 PM

Not sure what you mean with true since it is mere opinions. From my perspective, it often comes down to this: A few good moments in an otherwise terrible movie (NSNA) V.S. a few bad moments in otherwise excellent movies (EON). You do the math. A "relatively minor script revision" would not make any difference to NSNA.

 

Yes, I definitely prefer MR and AVTAK over NSNA. Not crazy about LTK, but that film has at least better direction and action than NSNA.

I am suprised that you even bring up YOLT, LALD, TMWTGG and OP which are all obviously better.
 

If you honestly think that TMWTGG and AVTAK has more good moments than NSNA then we have seen three different films....



#12 AMC Hornet

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 10:07 PM

I'll split the difference by asserting, IMO, that TMWTGG and NSNA had more good moments than AVTAK.

Howzat?



#13 freemo

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 03:46 AM

Anyone else have a tendency to forget that this movie even exists?

 

Generally in the habit of thinking Connery did six Bond film, without any "official" or "EON" quantifier. Suffered through about a third of it 18 months ago when I was writing something on its depiction of the secret service, but I can't remember the last time I watched the whole thing. The novelty of it sustains it for about an hour or so, but this is one I struggle to make it to the end of.



#14 Turn

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:06 PM

It seems plenty of people have forgotten it. EON has helped by keeping it somewhat buried and not as accessible as the other films.

 

I had NSNA on Blu-ray and a year or two ago when the mania for all things out of print netted me like $60 for a copy kind of sums up my feeling about it. I'll take the good deal rather than worry about having it to complete my Bond collection. I even still have CR '67. I just know one day it will be available again and I'll worry about it then.



#15 OmarB

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 06:11 PM

I have never made it to the end of NSNA and I own the dvd!  Holy heck that movie is a bore.  I usually zone out by the time he is in the islands.



#16 iBond

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 11:31 PM

I just like the fact that Connery did the same number of films as Moore. I don't care if it wasn't official. It would be cool, however, if they redid a score for the film of Never Say Never Again. The action music is just lame.

#17 hoagy

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:34 PM

In response:  I was note engaged in a comparison of the films.  I was commenting on an earlier comment ("No, I can't") to another contributor pointing out that some of the failures of NSNA occurred in other Bond films, the ones from the EON company.  For example:  the humor: I was pointing out that in a number of the EON films things were included that were groaners, and could have been left out, producing much better films.  They were going for different audiences and for laughs...and the "jokes" made me (and, I think, fans of the earlier films) wince, not laugh.

Ironically, I think it may have been necessary, but it went on too long.  They had a different actor, with different strengths.  They were getting a strong positive reaction internationally.  Had they stayed with the earlier films' tone throughout, the series might have faced a great deal of indifference.

I just wish some of the "jokes" had not been such groaners !  Still, as I said, going the same way over and over can get dull.  I just hoped for a higher level of humor and panache.  Roger Moore certainly was capable of that, too.



#18 Mr_Wint

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:54 PM

I'll split the difference by asserting, IMO, that TMWTGG and NSNA had more good moments than AVTAK.

Howzat?

 

If you are going to count "good moments" I am not sure that NSNA would beat AVTAK. The taxi car chase and the horse race beats any action in NSNA right away. And then we have all the scenes at the french chateau with many good moments between Moore and Macnee. Let's add the car-drowning scene, Pola Ivanova and all the musical moments thanks to Barry. And both Moore and Walken are very good whenever they bump into each other ("How about fishing?", "Your prefer speed or stamina?", "You leave me little choice.", "Don't count on it, Zorin", "Alive and well, I see."). How about the climax? The golden gate fight in AVTAK v.s. that... er... whatever-they-were-doing-in-NSNA-thing.

 

However, the main reason why I pick AVTAK is that it just feels more competently directed. Nothing exceptionally exciting happens compared to previous EON Bond films, but the story moves along at a steady pace. I cannot say that about NSNA where the intrigue is very weak and the storytelling is either too rushed or is essentially standing still for 30-40 minutes.



#19 Skylla

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:12 AM

 

I'll split the difference by asserting, IMO, that TMWTGG and NSNA had more good moments than AVTAK.

Howzat?

 

If you are going to count "good moments" I am not sure that NSNA would beat AVTAK. The taxi car chase and the horse race beats any action in NSNA right away. And then we have all the scenes at the french chateau with many good moments between Moore and Macnee. Let's add the car-drowning scene, Pola Ivanova and all the musical moments thanks to Barry. And both Moore and Walken are very good whenever they bump into each other ("How about fishing?", "Your prefer speed or stamina?", "You leave me little choice.", "Don't count on it, Zorin", "Alive and well, I see."). How about the climax? The golden gate fight in AVTAK v.s. that... er... whatever-they-were-doing-in-NSNA-thing.

 

However, the main reason why I pick AVTAK is that it just feels more competently directed. Nothing exceptionally exciting happens compared to previous EON Bond films, but the story moves along at a steady pace. I cannot say that about NSNA where the intrigue is very weak and the storytelling is either too rushed or is essentially standing still for 30-40 minutes.

 

Well, but opposite to Moore Connery at least looked like he could do his own walking without a stuntman (don´t even mention the ridicilous fightscenes under the horsestable, on the firecar and your great climax on the GGB), the stupid scene when Grace Jones goes from bad to good, the annoying Tanya Roberts, making quiche, the Beach Boys, ...there´s a pretty long list with not so good moments 



#20 Turn

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:04 PM

All fair criticisms of NSNA's pacing, Mr. Wint. However, I can't agree AVTAK moves along at a steady pace. Almost 30 years after it's release I still find the section from the time Bond arrives in San Francisco to roughly the time of the fire truck chase the most boring of any Bond film. About the only really interesting thing is playing Where's Waldo with Maud Adams who may or may not be in the arrival scene and that lasts just a few seconds .

 

Besides that, AVTAK has always had a major identity crisis going on, making the biggest swings between serious, light and outright slapstick stupidity of about any film in the series IMO. At least in TSWLM and MR you knew it was all fantasyland, but AVTAK wants to have you experience these swings throughout its length as part of the overall experience and it's glaring. 

 

Just a few examples, the realism of Howe's death and the fire to watching hobos concerned about Bond's safety. Then getting an even less amusing Sheriff JW Pepper variation and Bond being tossed about on the back of a fire truck while knocking off camper tops to reveal sleeping couples. Then just a little later we're back to Zorin gunning down helpless miners followed by a girl who doesn't know a blimp is behind her. It asks too much to be a truly satisfying film and, although I realize AVTAK has developed something of a cult with some fans, I still count it near the bottom of my rankings.

 

 

 

AVTAK does have some standout moments.



#21 AMC Hornet

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:39 PM

AVTAK does have some standout moments.

Quite right.

I watched it with my father once. He fell asleep during the titles, woke up in time for the Golden Gate Bridge fight, then declared "that was the worst Bond film I've ever seen!"

I could only agree with him, adding "and you only saw the best parts!"



#22 hoagy

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 11:15 PM

"Near" the bottom ?  Giving that some thought, not that I engage in ranking.  What would be below it ?  Unfortunately, it was one too many for Roger Moore, a beloved Bond.  (I also, for his [and the film's] sake, wish they'd not included the "almost chasing the car he asked for a ride" scene in Octopussy and used different attire and shots rather than him in the vest)

 

Debating which one was worst is silly, though.

 

They're doing well, now.  Even when silly, they were successful and the series kept going.



#23 Revelator

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:58 PM

Having long regarded it as a decent Bond film, I'm surprised at how much NSNA is disliked around here. Sure, there are obvious flaws, and I'll list them in detail--the dull score, the absence of the gun-barrel, and the film's tendency to sag toward the end (Largo's death lacks the intensity it had in Fleming's novel, where an exhausted Bond was truly in peril). I'm also not crazy about Rowan Atkinson or the over-avuncular Blofeld of Max Von Sydow.

 

But the main casting is very strong: Connery gives one of his best (and warmest) performances as Bond, Klaus Maria Brandauer is an exquisitely creepy Largo (vastly more effective than the Thunderball version), Barbara Carrera is by far the most energetic and memorable of all Bondian femme fatales, and Bernard Fox and Alec McCowan are memorable new versions of M and Q.

For the most part the humor of the film is dry and understated (I love Bond's prevaricating with Fatima Blush, and even goofier bits like Bond using his own urine as a weapon have appropriate irony), and most importantly avoids the tonal schizophrenia that overtook Roger Moore's last several Bond films. And the film has a sizable collection of good scenes and arresting visuals: Bond pretending to be a masseuse to meet Domino, Bond bluffing his way into the casino, the tense tango wherein Bond tells Domino of her brother's death, the excellent motorcycle chase, Fatima's wicked witch-style death scene, the mirror-room seduction, and Bond and Domino leaping into the sea on a horse.

And while some abhor the scene of Bond and Largo playing video games, I think it's fantastic. It probably plays better today, since video games have taken over the world, and the graphics are charmingly retro. "Domination," the game itself, is appropriately Bondian (it's like something Fleming would have invented if he'd been born five decades later) and looks pretty fun (though literally painful) to play. I'm surprised no one has made a real-world version of it.

 

As for where I'd rank the film, I think it's a fine mid-level Bond--better than DAF, TMWTGG, AVTAK, and most of Brosnans; on par with OP; and it's more coherent than LALD and MR, though those have more memorable imagery.


Edited by Revelator, 19 December 2013 - 11:02 PM.


#24 glidrose

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:07 PM

If anything NSNA is one of the most tonally inconsistent Bond films of all. It always seems too lighthearted.

Ultimately the film is a disaster for me.

#25 Revelator

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:36 PM

If anything NSNA is one of the most tonally inconsistent Bond films of all. It always seems too lighthearted.
 

 

If the film always seems lighthearted, then it is tonally consistent.