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ChickenStu on Fleming's originals.


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#31 ChickenStu

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

Bond hit me at an early age and most of my ideas about women came from the views of Bond through Fleming's writing. Obviously I never saw much use for women other than sex toys and bullet catchers to protect others. Still feel that way. Fleming saw women for what they are. Tools for the use of men and little else.

As for the racism of LIVE AND LET DIE. It was the 1950's and blacks were considered the "N" word. I live in the South part of the USA and to me that is what they still are. He portrayed blacks as the dope fiends, criminals and garbage that they were and for the most part still are.

 

Randy

 

OK, that's me sending an email to the mods. 

 

EDIT - Ok I can see the blighter is gone. Would someone in the officer's mess be kind enough to delete his comments and all trace of him from my thread please? Thank you. 


Edited by ChickenStu, 12 October 2013 - 12:39 PM.


#32 Dustin

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:13 PM

That creature is no longer with us, apologies for any inconveniences it has caused during its short presence. 



#33 ChickenStu

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 10:49 PM

Thanks Dustin! 

 

I have just finished reading Thunderball. I quite enjoyed it, quite the bombastic action thriller. As my Fleming reading experience continues - I am very satisfied to note the arrival of a certain "Ernst Stavro Blofeld" into proceedings. Seems things are about to hot up for our favourite spy! 



#34 Guy Haines

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:44 AM

Thank you Double Naught Spy for that kind response! Today my copies of Dr. No and Goldfinger came through, and I just went ahead and ordered the remaining seven Fleming books. If you don't hear from me for a couple of days, you know why!  ;)

I like Goldfinger also. I wonder, though, if you agree with the point many of us here have made in the past regarding Goldfinger's plan to raid Fort Knox and steal all of the gold? It really does stretch the bounds of credulity. I thought Ian Fleming was going a bit too far when he has Goldfinger planning to use a "clean" atomic bomb to blow up the gates of the bullion depository! (Just stand well back when it goes off and wear a radiation suit, and you'll be OK. Eh???)

 

It's not often that a Bond film improves on a Fleming plot line, but I think the writers of the screenplay were right to have Goldfinger planning to detonate the "atomic device" (As they called it in Red China!) inside Fort Knox, destabilise the western economy, and massively increase the value of the villain's own stock of gold. Of course the flip side of the re-write is it makes Goldfinger's almost physical love of gold seem shallow. And of course in this day and age, you don't need a catastrophe like this one to bring the western economy to its knees - the financial sector has managed it with a very different kind of "meltdown" in 2008! ;)



#35 Guy Haines

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

 

What I miss about the recent Bond novels, such as the new one "Solo" - which I've read and did enjoy - is the attention to detail that Ian Fleming brought to his works. Detail, not only in Bond's own tastes - cars, cigarettes, even marmalade at breakfast, the type of detail which William Boyd did pick up on in his recent novel - but in the background of the characters, especially the villains. Fleming would often spend the best part of a chapter telling the reader about the bad guy, or letting the villain tell his own story to Bond, as in Dr No. I felt this was missing in "Solo", and in other continuation novels.


Absolutely. Oddly, Simon Winder in that Fleming compilation claims that Fleming appears bored when typing out Dr. No's backstory. That's my favorite part of the book!

 

I think it was a pity that the character Kobus Breed, essentially the villain of Solo, wasn't fleshed out more. We could have discovered his background - the name suggests he's an Afrikaner, despite hailing from a British colony in rebellion where most whites were English speakers. (Thus carrying on the Fleming line that no Englishman is ever a villain!) Instead he appears on the scene, menaces Bond, tries to buddy up to him before reverting to menace, and is the antagonist without us ever knowing  much about him. He's more of a "Red Grant" villain than an evil genius, yet in FRWL Fleming devotes more than one chapter to establishing the full dossier on Grant. It's as if the modern writers of Bond are reluctant to reveal much about Bond's adversaries for fear not wanting to write the traditional scene where the villain reveals all. Maybe they think that would be "copying" Fleming too much. (Or that such scenes have been parodied to destruction!) A pity.



#36 glidrose

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

Bond hit me at an early age and most of my ideas about women came from the views of Bond through Fleming's writing. Obviously I never saw much use for women other than sex toys and bullet catchers to protect others. Still feel that way. Fleming saw women for what they are. Tools for the use of men and little else.
As for the racism of LIVE AND LET DIE. It was the 1950's and blacks were considered the "N" word. I live in the South part of the USA and to me that is what they still are. He portrayed blacks as the dope fiends, criminals and garbage that they were and for the most part still are.
 
Randy


Amazed you can read anything through the slits in the hood. Go away.


Damn. Now I'm never going to find out where he stands on the Idris Elba issue, or what he thinks of Barack Obama, or who he voted for in 2008 & 2012, or which show he thinks is better: The Jeffersons or the Cosby Show. Or what detergent he uses to get his sheets whiter than white.

#37 ChickenStu

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:19 PM

I've just finished reading The Spy Who Loved Me. Hmmm. It was an interesting experiment I guess, but a bit too mills & boony for my taste. I'm not really sure what the endgame of this endeavor was on Fleming's part... 



#38 Revelator

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:55 AM

I've just finished reading The Spy Who Loved Me. Hmmm. It was an interesting experiment I guess, but a bit too mills & boony for my taste. I'm not really sure what the endgame of this endeavor was on Fleming's part... 

 

Perhaps even Fleming was not sure. One hand, he perhaps wanted to demystify Bond by viewing him from the "wrong end of the telescope"--Bond makes several klutzy mistakes and at the end the policeman denounces him to Vivienne as a cold-blooded killer who belongs with the crooks he chases.And yet Vivienne can't help falling in love with the unattainable man, especially in light of her romantic history, which far from being like a romance novel is a sad display of male stupidity, crassness, and misbegotten privilege (Vivienne's ghastly loss of virginity in a movie house was apparently based on Fleming's own experiences, and Derek seems to be a critical self-portrait of the young author). After such experiences, it's no surprise Viv would love Bond, but Bond is a man no woman can have--it reflects badly on men if the only good one is out of reach. Despite the notorious "semi-rape" line, TSWLM is probably Ian Fleming's most feminist book.



#39 ChickenStu

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:50 PM

I found there to be an air of superfluousness to the proceedings. After hammering through Thunderball I wanted to carry on with THAT story. The Spy Who Loved Me in my opinion was a somewhat void tangent. Things are back on track now though, with bells on. 



#40 ChickenStu

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:18 PM

I have just finished reading On Her Majesty's Secret Service. Absolutely stunning. I think this may have just become my favourite of all the books. Very very readable and engaging. And that ending, wow. Of course, I knew what was coming but it still hits like a punch in the gut. A very sad tale all round. 

 

It's a shame I'm tee-total. In the old days, I would've needed a stiff one after that. 



#41 Revelator

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:54 PM

It's a shame I'm tee-total. In the old days, I would've needed a stiff one after that. 

 

On the bright side, you have more time for reading! Congratulations on your rapid progress through Fleming's works. OHMSS is definitely one of the greatest classic-style Bond novels--a "return to form." That said, I feel it and Goldfinger are the only cases where the film is better than the book. The film of OHMSS does a better job of tying together the major plot strands of the book by having Blofeld capture Tracy. It increases the enmity between Bond and Blofeld by adding a scene where the two openly confront each other. Additionally, whereas Fleming's Tracy becomes less interesting as the book goes on, Diana Rigg embodies a flesh and blood character, continually balancing pride with vulnerability. The only place where the movie stumbles in adapting the book is underplaying the theme of Blofeld's snobbery--the fact that he would jeopardize his entire operation to become a count. The movie doesn't make the "hair heel of Achilles" as prominent as the book does.

 

Anyway, after OHMSS you'll come the bizarre, haunting YOLT and the undercooked TMWTGG. Both are the works of an ailing writer, and while they are atypical of what most people expect from a Bond book, each has its charms. For many, including me, YOLT, is one of the best of the books. TMWTGG has an excellent first third and a wonderful closing scene, but the rest will likely strike you as disappointing. The comic strip adaptation improves on Fleming in multiple ways, and I recommend seeking it out. (The comic strip versions of OHMSS and YOLT are also worth buying--they're close adaptations.)


Edited by Revelator, 14 October 2013 - 09:57 PM.


#42 ChickenStu

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:57 PM

Thanks Revelator. I have indeed finished You Only Live Twice and I found it to be imaginative and almost over-reaching in someway. The whole "Shatterhand garden of death" affair I thought was a very intriguing concept and found this novel to be very visual. And it was good to finally see our man get the better of that utter rotter Blofeld! 

 

The end is in sight now! (I always have been a fast reader. When I'm into a book, I usually don't stop until I've finished it. Takes hours!)



#43 ggl

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:21 PM

 (I always have been a fast reader. When I'm into a book, I usually don't stop until I've finished it. Takes hours!)

Of course, you do not drink... do not smoke... do not make love. What do you do, Vargas? :P ;)

 

Just to read Ian Fleming...



#44 ChickenStu

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:54 PM

 

 (I always have been a fast reader. When I'm into a book, I usually don't stop until I've finished it. Takes hours!)

Of course, you do not drink... do not smoke... do not make love. What do you do, Vargas? :P ;)

 

Just to read Ian Fleming...

 

 

HAHA!!

 

I must admit I do have a penchant for Henri Winterman cigars, Regretfully though, I have to quit the blasted things. Tomorrow looks like it's going to be the day for that. I don't make love, but that isn't because of reading. 8 years of marriage, and siring three children kyboshed that one!  :D

 

It's funny, I have been a fan of the movie series for many years. I've also been a very enthusiastic reader. I do read an awful lot (TV is just so dreary these days) so whilst I'm pleased that I am finally discovering these books - at the same time I am kicking myself for not doing it sooner. There have been plenty of opportunities before. 

 

I digress however, the important thing I suppose is that I'm doing it. I really feel that taking the time to do this has somewhat strengthened my credentials as a Bond fan. I feel I can claim to be that with a bit more pride now. With each book finished, my guilt of being an amateur is slowly eroding away. 

 

On that note I must leave you fine people. For I have a date with Fleming. The race is almost done, and the finish line is in sight. With the relatively short page count of the remaining books, and the speed at which I read... I predict that at some point tomorrow my graduation will be complete. I will be a REAL Bond fan!  B)  



#45 ggl

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:26 PM

Wise words indeed, man. I wish all Bond fans would read that... GIF025.gif



#46 ChickenStu

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:46 PM

Thank you ggl.

 

Well, the journey is complete. Last night/early this morning I read The Man With The Golden Gun. An ineffectual adventure and not up to the caliber of previous adventures. To be completely honest with you all, I was somewhat glad to get it over with.

 

Today I read Octopussy and The Living Daylights. 

 

Octopussy

 

Enjoyable cautionary tale about how greed corrupts. 

 

The Property Of A Lady

 

Didn't really enjoy that much I'm sorry to say. Just didn't find it engaging.

 

The Living Daylights

 

An enjoyable, punchy little tale.

 

007 In New York

 

If there was some sort of point to this I'm afraid I didn't get it. Although, I think I may have to try that scrambled egg recipe. Sounds delicious!

 

So, the journey is complete. I have now read all of Ian Fleming's James Bond adventures. It's been a very interesting journey. I am very pleased to now join the illustrious ranks of the more learned members in here. I have a copy of Robert Markham's book (or Kingsley Amis) but I think I'm going to have a bit of a break from reading now. Simply because I have the movie marathon to start on next!

 

You may have noticed I haven't really talked about the films in this thread. That was sort of deliberate. Simply because if I want to talk about the films there are dedicated boards for it. I will however, say this: the actor who got it closest to the way Fleming wrote it has got to be Timothy Dalton. He looks the way Fleming described him and acts the way Fleming described him. I think the film The Living Daylights presents the closest thing to the literary Bond onscreen. Only in terms of Dalton's performance. It's a shame all that went out of the window in Licence To Kill where Dalton plays our man as an unhinged sociopath (still, good film though). 

 

That's my last word on that subject, in here at least anyway.

 

Thank you all for indulging me with this thread and allowing me to share my thoughts. It's been a pleasure to share the journey with you and I hope this hugely enjoyable discussion will continue!  :D



#47 Jonathan Cape

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 11:42 AM

I'm slightly jealous.

 

To have only just "found" the original Bond if you like must be like finding long lost treasure. I picked up Dr No from my parents bookcase when I was 9 years old. It was a paperback, the Pan one with the blue cover and a spiders web across it. I've always enjoyed reading those novels, I used to go to my local library and get the hardbacks out, not only do I recall the wonderful artwork on the sleeves but in the past couple of years I've been buying those hardback books on ebay.

Last night I picked up Moonraker as I wanted to "re-live" the card game again, brilliantly written. Can't help but picture Brian Blessed as Drax when I read it.

 

My favourite novel as well as film is OHMSS.



#48 Dustin

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:53 PM

OHMSS is definitely one of the greatest classic-style Bond novels--a "return to form." That said, I feel it and Goldfinger are the only cases where the film is better than the book. The film of OHMSS does a better job of tying together the major plot strands of the book by having Blofeld capture Tracy. It increases the enmity between Bond and Blofeld by adding a scene where the two openly confront each other. Additionally, whereas Fleming's Tracy becomes less interesting as the book goes on, Diana Rigg embodies a flesh and blood character, continually balancing pride with vulnerability. The only place where the movie stumbles in adapting the book is underplaying the theme of Blofeld's snobbery--the fact that he would jeopardize his entire operation to become a count. The movie doesn't make the "hair heel of Achilles" as prominent as the book does.


If you think of it that claim for the de Bleuville/Bleuchamp title is the weakest part of the entire story. Blofeld obviously already uses the title and lives under the alias fairly well-protected in Swizzerland. The logical thing for him to do would be to just go on without stirring anybody up about it. If he needs some kind of document he'd just forge it. And if he'd really need an actual living person from the College of Arms giving a false expertise he'd just bribe one (and dispose of the person afterwards). The book even picks up on it when Blofeld makes a first move on bribing Bray. The sensible thing for a villain of Blofeld's calibre would be to make sure his guest was willing to be bribed or - better still - just fake the necessary documents and leave them with the College.

Agreed on the film making Tracy a much more interesting woman. It also develops the relationship between Bond and Tracy. In the book they really spend only a few hours together. And all of a sudden Bond thinks 'fine girl, great sex, no uncomfortable ties - let's forget about the capo father - would let me get on with my life = ideal 00 wifey'. In the book it's not really convincing if you look closer at this decision. The film has these great images with Armstrong's song where we actually see them becoming an issue, a couple in love.

#49 Revelator

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 06:22 PM

If you think of it that claim for the de Bleuville/Bleuchamp title is the weakest part of the entire story. Blofeld obviously already uses the title and lives under the alias fairly well-protected in Swizzerland. The logical thing for him to do would be to just go on without stirring anybody up about it. If he needs some kind of document he'd just forge it. And if he'd really need an actual living person from the College of Arms giving a false expertise he'd just bribe one (and dispose of the person afterwards). The book even picks up on it when Blofeld makes a first move on bribing Bray. The sensible thing for a villain of Blofeld's calibre would be to make sure his guest was willing to be bribed or - better still - just fake the necessary documents and leave them with the College.


Agreed on the film making Tracy a much more interesting woman. It also develops the relationship between Bond and Tracy. In the book they really spend only a few hours together. And all of a sudden Bond thinks 'fine girl, great sex, no uncomfortable ties - let's forget about the capo father - would let me get on with my life = ideal 00 wifey'. In the book it's not really convincing if you look closer at this decision. The film has these great images with Armstrong's song where we actually see them becoming an issue, a couple in love.

 

The film also adds that terrific scene of Tracy storming off after she learns Bond and Draco are negotiating over her and Blofeld--Bond then has to prove that he genuinely cares for her, via what sounds like Simon Raven's dialogue, and that leads into the montage and Satchmo's immortal love song (which I once programmed for a friend's wedding).

 

Blofeld indeed acts in a less-than-logical manner over his fake title, which further demonstrates how much of an Achilles heel his snobbery is. He jeopardizes his entire operation just so he can officially be a count. My feeling is that bribery was the last-ditch option for Blofeld--his pride demanded that he first try for a "pure" confirmation from the College. Perhaps it's part of the overall degeneration of Blofeld--from icy mastermind in TB to desperate syphilitic snob in OHMSS to ranting madman in YOLT. (I sometimes wonder if it was Irma Bundt who gave him syphilis, but since that involves picturing them in bed I think about other things instead).



#50 Dustin

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:41 PM



Blofeld indeed acts in a less-than-logical manner over his fake title, which further demonstrates how much of an Achilles heel his snobbery is. He jeopardizes his entire operation just so he can officially be a count. My feeling is that bribery was the last-ditch option for Blofeld--his pride demanded that he first try for a "pure" confirmation from the College. Perhaps it's part of the overall degeneration of Blofeld--from icy mastermind in TB to desperate syphilitic snob in OHMSS to ranting madman in YOLT. (I sometimes wonder if it was Irma Bundt who gave him syphilis, but since that involves picturing them in bed I think about other things instead).


An interesting idea, perhaps Blofeld really believes his claim is legitimate, despite his better knowledge to the contrary, hm...
That would suggest he's already spending large part of his days in Bleuville-fantasy-country while remaining functional on the surface. Would also tally with the rather outlandish scheme of YOLT, involving a large investment without a proper way to cash in - the Nipponese government buying him out to get rid of his castle is a fairly improbable hope; likewise setting up a similar operation - and with the sick sadistic pleasure of observing strangers committing suicide as the only substantial payoff beside walking around in full Samurai-fetish-gear.

I wonder how active Bunt's role in Blofeld's life may have been? She's obviously the director of operations on Piz Gloria, handling all the affairs with the girls. Could it be she's even more of an active force behind the scenes? The operation calls for in-depth expertise on biological warfare and its chemical/biological agents as well as - working! - allergy treatment and sufficient hands-on experience with hypnosis. Neither field seems to be Blofeld's own strong suit, judging by TB's extensive backstory of Blofeld. Could Bunt have been the expert Blofeld needed for this? The various redshirts from SMERSH, Union Corse and so on are obviously mainly there for guard duty, surely none of them is adept beyond the usual shooting-fighting-killing and laboratory worker/assistant skills.*

Once more OHMSS gives an example of a meticulously planned scheme to deal a vital blow to Britain by ingenious use of modern science and ruthless villainy. At closer inspection the affair becomes a needlessly complicated series of obstacles. First to find a group of girls with a farming/ranching background and a specific psychosomatic allergy - psychosomatic because only that form would show results by hypnosis treatment - threatening their future in the family business. Yet these farming/ranching families must be so involved in their produce to guarantee they are present at various agricultural shows, either with their own products or out of interest in their competitors. This group of girls must also be susceptible to deep hypnosis and able to follow posthypnotic instructions to release their respective BW agents at such agricultural fairs over a period of time and keep their pathogen agents safe in the meantime. Fine, fine, fine...

Why not send Bertil, Grunther, Peter or some other minor henchman and do exactly the same without all the fuss about hypnosis and allergies? Such fairs are not exactly high security areas. Would have worked much faster. Once more it's Fleming's outstanding talent to cover up the obvious with the outrageous and still get away with it. During reading OHMSS I don't ask such questions, the sheer flow and excitement of the adventure keep me from becoming overly critical.


*As an aside: Bond muses about the typical 'communist-cell pattern' of Blofeld's outfit, sounding incredibly expert on such matters. But the fact is a cell-pattern is vital for any clandestine operation and at least since World War II basic intelligence practice of all intelligence services. Bond's expertise is tarnished here because the cell structure in this case doesn't make sense in Blofeld's operation, with all groups apparently working together and knowing each other.

#51 ChickenStu

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:42 PM

Still trying to work out what my favorite book it. I'd say it's a toss up between From Russia With Love and On Her Majesty's Secret Service. I can categorically tell  you that For Your Eyes Only is my favorite of the the two short story collections. Really did rather enjoy that collection of tall tales and vignettes. 



#52 ChickenStu

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:28 PM

For some reason I can't edit my posts in here anymore - so I'll take this opportunity to correct something. I sired TWO children, not THREE. The oldest child I am not biologically responsible for. Nor is he a child anymore, lol. Sorry about that. 



#53 ChickenStu

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

Just in case anyone is interested in this thread still - I've had a think and I've got to say that From Russia With Love is my favourite of the Fleming books. I just do not think it can really be topped. As wonderful as the movie is - I wish it went with the way the book ended. Hopefully a future movie with Our Man may appropriate this ending as it's out of the blue - and strangely triumphant. Not for Our Man of course but certainly for the author! 



#54 Revelator

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:38 PM

FRWL was also Fleming's favorite, and is commonly cited as the best of the Bond novels. It's certainly the most carefully-crafted. Plotting was one of Fleming's weak points, but not in FRWL. It's also the strongest book in characterization--Bond, Darko Kerim, Tatiana, Rosa Klebb, and Grant make a hell of a cast. And then there's the intense atmosphere of Istanbul (during its most run-down and melancholy period) and a great set-piece in the moving death-trap that is Orient Express.

As for the ending--perhaps they could use it for Craig's last Bond film. Then the next film could start with M being angry at the new Bond for letting himself get kicked...



#55 ChickenStu

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:03 AM

Call me a misery guts - but I do have a fondness for downbeat endings. Don't know why - always have.