22 replies to this topic

[DominicGreene]

I'm not sure if there was ever a topic like this on CBn before, but I was wondering what the forum thought of this dilemma.

 

Do you believe that each actor portrayed exactly the same Bond? Or do you think they were different people, possibly all playing 007?

 

The way I see it, is that each Bond portrays Bond for a certain time. Then, when the next actor plays Bond, the last actor would be remembered as "just another 00."

 

What is your opinion on this? Any other interesting speculations?

[x007AceOfSpades]

Same Bond, just a timeless character.

[thecasinoroyale]

I was thinking about this re-watching the Bond recently on Blu-ray.

 

Connery Bond sets the bar - Lazenby Bond gets married and becomes a widower - Connery Bond returns seeking Blofeld in apparent reprisal for killing Tracy and ending his many years tracking him down - Moore Bond is seen placing flowers on Teresa's grave - Dalton Bond is hurt at the thought of marriage and Felix Leiter reminds us he was married once - Brosnan Bond gives us the confirmation when Elektra asks if he has ever lost someone, with a silence, avoiding the subject of his wife - Craig Bond sets another bar.

 

I like to think it's the same character, but it's just Craig's Bond who is out of the same timeframe as the others. He is 007 but in a different time, as he clearly has not been married or met Tracy yet and just been given 00 status, but the previous 5 actors give nods that they have met Tracy and it's the same, timeless character they are playing.

 

 

That's my view anyway!

[tdalton]

They play the same character.  

[SecretAgentFan]

Ah, goody - another thread for the unloved code name-theory.

 

Frankly, I´ve never been averse to it, having several agents assume the James Bond name and number.  And it would work, I guess - having Connery-Bond quit, then coming back after Lazenby-Bond quitting due to Tracy´s death (would even explain why Connery-Bond is not really grief-stricken in DAF, only cleaning up for Lazenby-Bond).  After that one has Moore-Bond, staying "in character" whenever the Tracy-incident is mentioned.  Something Dalton-Bond also does, since he takes everything very seriously.  And Brosnan-Bond, already being much too young to be the original Bond, sticks to the Tracy-story as well.  Craig-Bond does not have to fake anything, since he has Vesper´s demise to be gloomy about.

 

But in the end, of course, continuity is not really a thing with the Bond films.  Only within the eras of the particular actor.

 

We, the audience, get different stories about James Bond and they all are told with different actors, in different time spans, and in it all there´s is just one James Bond.

[Walecs]

I always consider each actor playing its timeline.

[Dustin]

Every single film heeds or discards previous events as the plot/director/script sees fit. It's a flexible concept that doesn't necessarily call for a reboot or noticeable passage of time. And it's entirely up to you whether you accept Dalton in LTK as the same guy who battled Drax with a laser gun in outer space, or if you simply prefer to forget about the whole of MR.   

[AMC Hornet]

Well said, Dustin; I've never felt that Dalton was a continuation of Moore.

 

Without getting into the whole 'same wife, same guy' debate, or the CR67 theory of a new agent adopting an old agent's name along with his number, I'd just like to say that I see Sean/George/Roger as one Bond in one timeline, and that the events in MR never really happened.

 

TLD was constructed in such a way that you can see it as a reboot if you want, or not. Right from Dalton's first appearance he exuded the attitude of a man with a dirty job, often called upon to do distasteful things that erode his soul - doesn't seem like a suddenly youngified Connery or Moore to me. "He was married once, but that was a long time ago" could mean anything. If you want to believe in an elastic timeline, then you can believe that - despite what it said on the tombstone on FYEO - that Tracy (or at least Dalton's Tracy) died more recently.

 

But just because we have a 'new' 007 it doesn't mean that another agent had his name changed from Cledwyn Jones to James Bond to 'confuse the enemy.'  The series was refreshed in 1987, and this would have been even more apparent if a 34 year old Brosnan had taken over from Grandpa Rog.

 

Some people see the backstory PTS in GE as Brosnan 'erasing' Dalton from the timeline. Not me. I think Dalton and Brosnan were the same character. We see why Bond was so dour through the late 80s, and we see that he's lightened up a bit in the early 90s, at least until his past comes back to haunt him.

 

CR was obviously a reboot, but despite what Mendes said about coming 'full circle' it doesn't have to mean that Bond's next mission will be to investigate the goings-on at a bird sanctuary in Jamaica. The way I see it, Craig will continue to play the only version of Bond who's been provided with an actual origin story. The films may be reminiscent of the first two series - in the way that LTK was reminiscent of the novel LALD at times - and for the same reason: having mined the novels to near exhaustion, Eon is now free to mine the old films, without Bond visiting Istanbul 'again' or finding another woman smothered in a precious resource.

 

Lighten up, people - it doesn't have to all fit together. Craig is not going to be introduced someday to a familiar, elderly man as his 'successor.' Just as Roger Moore was not supposed to be the same Saint of the 1940s or his actual successor, neither is Bond supposed to be immortal or a succession of agents using the same name (although the new series coming this fall features a conversation between Sir Roger and Ian Ogilvy where they discuss how "the world needs a Saint", so perhaps they at least are related).

 

Lewis Wilson, Adam West, Michael Keaton and Christian Bale played different incarnations of Batman, but this doesn't mean that Batman (and Commissioner Gordon, et al) has been a constant in Gotham City since the 1940s. Just like Bond, they started over, without a standing history.

 

When Craig is done, I suspect that he will be replaced with another actor playing the same Bond (albeit with a somewhat different look and personality), as it will be too soon for another reboot. Provided the series (hopefully) continues for another few decades, another reboot is yet to come.

 

And on the debate will rage...

[Professor Pi]

Craig's movies are the first time the producers have really addressed this issue head on.  With Craig's Bond the first to actually be at his parents' gravestones in Skyfall, that should put the codename theory permanently to rest.  And Michael Wilson said they wanted to make CR as if they had never made a Bond movie before (though that damn DB5 keeps showing up and complicating this argument!)

 

More and more, I think of Brosnan's Bond as its own universe, as his silence to Elektra's question about losing someone he loved could be interpreted as the loss of his parents, first acknowledged in GoldenEye.  Also, GE goes out of its way to distance itself from LTK (with its PTS happening nine years before 1995, along with the discussion Bond and M have on vengeance, thereby wiping out Dalton's era.) While Judi Dench plays M here, her CR and GE characters seem to be different people (perhaps Barbara Mawdsley with Brosnan, and Olivia Mansfield with Craig.)

 

Dalton can be argued either way with him having the same M as Moore and LTK's reference to Tracy, but TLD appears to be a different Bond and the producers were considering a reboot at this point with their new actor (according to The Making of The Living Daylights.)

 

OHMSS might be outside the Connery Bond universe, as the janitor hums the Goldfinger theme indicating that's a movie in this world, but Lazenby's Bond has gadgets from DN, FRWL and TB.  So maybe Goldfinger isn't part of that universe?  But then TSWLM references OHMSS, as does FYEO, and MR clearly follows on the events of TSWLM via Jaws.  AVTAK has a deleted scene with Grant's garrote from FRWL.  So generally I accept Connery/Lazenby/Moore as the same Bond.

 

Rather than being a linear progression, the Bond franchise branches out in various directions, some of which are developed and strengthened, others to be abandoned then forgotten, with Goldfinger and OHMSS the most commonly referenced roots of the tree.  We keep having these discussions about same/not Bonds because they have the same producer family, whereas Batman, Superman, et. al, having different producers make it easier to avoid that issue.

Edited by Professor Pi, 09 July 2013 - 06:51 PM.

[AMC Hornet]

(I tried to use the MultiQuote feature but couldn't make it work)

 

Some people see the backstory PTS in GE as Brosnan 'erasing' Dalton from the timeline. Not me. I think Dalton and Brosnan were the same character. We see why Bond was so dour through the late 80s, and we see that he's lightened up a bit in the early 90s, at least until his past comes back to haunt him.

 

However, Professor Pi says:

 

"GE goes out of its way to distance itself from LTK (with its PTS happening nine years before 1995, along with the discussion Bond and M have on vengeance, thereby wiping out Dalton's era.)"

 

I guess I must be wrong...

[plankattack]

I tend to agree on the whole GE PTS thing. As much as I loved the film when it ended the hiatus, the use of that specific date always sat uncomfortably with me; I don't think it was a coincidence. At best it's a cheap shot by the writers/directors, at worst it's intentional by EON. Then again, depending who you believe, GE was conceived with TD in mind, no?

The codename thing has always been complete cobblers, an off-the-cuff remark from Tamahori that took on a life of their own. Each actor is playing their/their era's interpretation of Bond, but I never doubt for a moment that they're the same bloke. In same way there who knows how many versions of Hamlet. Sir Ian McKellan's Richard III isn't as literal in its setting as say, Branagh's Henry V, but it's still Shakespeare's Richard III.

Now, you can debate if some interpretations are better than others, or more literal than others, but I never doubt that they're Bond. Is Sir Rog grinning and mugging with Jaws in TSWLM Ian Fleming's Bond? Perhaps not, but Sir Rog in his initial meeting with XXX, and in the hotel scene could easily pass off as a more literal interpretation of the character.

Anyway, who exactly is James Bond? You could ask the dozen or so of us who've answered this thread to write down who we thought the literary and cinematic characters were, and I suspect there'd be a dozen answers with some substantial differences. Ultimately any character is interpretive rather than definitive.

[Hansen]

Honestly, I think that Bond Producers never cared about time line. Each film is seen as its own entity and is rarely connected to others in the Franchise except for allusions (and it can be awkward as in SF with the DB5 that is supposed to be won at a poker game in CR and thus having no gadgets).

I personnaly think that it is the best option : it gives much more freedom and allows the Franchise to adapt to each era.

[AMC Hornet]

Who says the DB5 in SF has to be the same one Bond won in Nassau?

Right-hand steering, different licence # - I'd say Bond has had two Astons.

[Dustin]

Given Bond's less than sustainable driving habits it seems two is the absolute minimum number of DB5s for 007...

[AMC Hornet]

I wonder how many more he had stashed about those mews garages?

[Dustin]

Might also wait the odd Lotus there.

[AMC Hornet]

Perhaps that mews was in Beaulieu, Hampshire...

[Bill]

I am of the opinion that Sean Connery, George Lazenby, Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton and Pierce Brosnan are the same James Bond.  The Tracy references as discussed above, and other things, such as the Bernard Lee portrait in TWINE, and Q telling Bond that he was giving him his twentieth watch in DAD, all point to it being the same person with one continuity.  With CR, we had a deliberate reboot where all of that seems to have been thrown out the window.  However, the last two scenes of Skyfall, along with the Aston Martin, belie the films being a reboot.  Instead, the indication is that the Craig films are prequels.  There are problems with this concept, as Mallory is not necessarily Messervy, Moneypenny can apparently change races, and Judi Dench's M can apparently both succeed and precede the old man (whoever he is).  It does not make much sense, but at least all of the films can be put into a singular timeline.  Borrowing a phrase from Doctor Who, a wibbly wobbly timey wimey timeline, but one timeline nonetheless.  I am not thrilled with the concept, but am far more comfortable with it if it means that we do not have to view the Craig films completely separate and apart from the previous twenty. Thus, as different as he is from the other actors, Daniel Craig can still be seen to be the same 007 as the other 5.

Edited by Bill, 12 July 2013 - 06:07 PM.

[AMC Hornet]

I think Craig is the third restart.

[freemo]

I think there have been 9 Bonds:

 

Bond 1: DR. NO, FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, GOLDFINGER, OHMSS, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

Bond 2: THUNDERBALL, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER

Bond 3: LIVE AND LET DIE, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN

Bond 4: MOONRAKER, OCTOPUSSY rest of film, and, oh, I don't know, TOMORROW NEVER DIES

Bond 5: A VIEW TO A KILL, DIE ANOTHER DAY

Bond 6: THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene

Bond 7: LICENCE TO KILL

Bond 8: GOLDENEYE, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH

Bond 9: CASINO ROYALE, QUANTUM OF SOLACE, SKYFALL

 

Sometimes a Bond will be played by multiple actors, sometimes an actor will play multple Bonds, but so far nine characters have held the codename "James Bond". Little known fact: OCTOPUSSY has two Bonds, the one in the pretitle scene is a different Bond than in the rest of the film (that Roger Moore plays both Bond 6 and Bond 4 makes it confusing, but the evidence is clear. in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS Kara calls Bond 6 a horse's arse, which is how he got the idea for the contraption seen in the OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene, actually set after TLD. That's continuity, people).

 

Codename Theory? Pfft. Codename Fact!

[PrinceKamalKhan]

I think there have been 9 Bonds:

 

Bond 1: DR. NO, FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, GOLDFINGER, OHMSS, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

Bond 2: THUNDERBALL, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER

Bond 3: LIVE AND LET DIE, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN

Bond 4: MOONRAKER, OCTOPUSSY rest of film, and, oh, I don't know, TOMORROW NEVER DIES

Bond 5: A VIEW TO A KILL, DIE ANOTHER DAY

Bond 6: THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene

Bond 7: LICENCE TO KILL

Bond 8: GOLDENEYE, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH

Bond 9: CASINO ROYALE, QUANTUM OF SOLACE, SKYFALL

 

Sometimes a Bond will be played by multiple actors, sometimes an actor will play multple Bonds, but so far nine characters have held the codename "James Bond". Little known fact: OCTOPUSSY has two Bonds, the one in the pretitle scene is a different Bond than in the rest of the film (that Roger Moore plays both Bond 6 and Bond 4 makes it confusing, but the evidence is clear. in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS Kara calls Bond 6 a horse's arse, which is how he got the idea for the contraption seen in the OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene, actually set after TLD. That's continuity, people).

 

Codename Theory? Pfft. Codename Fact!

 

Definitely an interesting take on it.

 

Officially, I think we are supposed to think that Connery, Lazenby and Moore are all definitely the same Bond. Dalton/Brosnan Bond are essentially the same as the ConLazMoore but slightly rebooted for age difference while Craig is a completely new reboot. I remember when he started the role there was publicity material stating his Bond was born in West Berlin in 1968.

[Hansen]

I think there have been 9 Bonds:

 

Bond 1: DR. NO, FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE, GOLDFINGER, OHMSS, THE SPY WHO LOVED ME, FOR YOUR EYES ONLY

Bond 2: THUNDERBALL, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER

Bond 3: LIVE AND LET DIE, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN GUN

Bond 4: MOONRAKER, OCTOPUSSY rest of film, and, oh, I don't know, TOMORROW NEVER DIES

Bond 5: A VIEW TO A KILL, DIE ANOTHER DAY

Bond 6: THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS, OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene

Bond 7: LICENCE TO KILL

Bond 8: GOLDENEYE, THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH

Bond 9: CASINO ROYALE, QUANTUM OF SOLACE, SKYFALL

 

Sometimes a Bond will be played by multiple actors, sometimes an actor will play multple Bonds, but so far nine characters have held the codename "James Bond". Little known fact: OCTOPUSSY has two Bonds, the one in the pretitle scene is a different Bond than in the rest of the film (that Roger Moore plays both Bond 6 and Bond 4 makes it confusing, but the evidence is clear. in THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS Kara calls Bond 6 a horse's arse, which is how he got the idea for the contraption seen in the OCTOPUSSY pretitle scene, actually set after TLD. That's continuity, people).

 

Codename Theory? Pfft. Codename Fact!

Not sure to fully understand, but I ove the concept !

[jmarks4life]

I think they're all different, and each played Bond according to the times.