Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

Why Skyfall Is A Better Anniversary Film Than Die Another Day


19 replies to this topic

#1 quantumofsolace

quantumofsolace

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1563 posts

Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:24 PM

whatculture june 4 2013

http://whatculture.c...another-day.php

2012 marked the 50th anniversary of James Bond’s cinematic debut in Dr. No and also saw the release of the 23rd James Bond film, Skyfall. Though the film was meant to have been released earlier, financial trouble led to a delay in filming and it is hard to imagine Skyfall not marking the 50th birthday of the cinematic Bond. It was also ten years since Die Another Day, Pierce Brosnan’s final outing as 007 was released. This film, like Skyfall, tried to celebrate the longevity of Bond on the big screen but unfortunately, amongst most of the Bond fandom, it is considered one of the worst films in the franchise and its director Lee Tamahori certainly fails to celebrate Bond in the way Sam Mendes would ten years later.

One thing which Tamahori was praised about was the use of references to previous Bond films in Die Another Day. The most subtle of these was Bond impersonating an Ornithologist to commemorate how Bond creator Ian Fleming took the name from an Ornithological book he had. However, there are some references which aren’t that hard to discover and understand. The use of a Union Jack parachute, the idea of a laser made out of diamonds in the sky and the fight scene with lasers all hark back to The Spy Who Loved Me, Diamonds Are Forever and Goldfinger respectively yet the most obvious reference to the other films is the scene where Bond is taken by Q, played here by John Cleese, to an underground testing facility which includes many items from previous films such as Rosa Klebb’s poison bladed shoe from From Russia With Love and the jet pack from Thunderball.

That scene feels like it was shoehorned into the film just purely for the anniversary aspect as it doesn’t offer anything to the plot. In Skyfall, the most obvious reference is the use of the Aston Martin DB5 though that has been used in several films since Goldfinger. Despite this, Mendes harks back to the history of Bond in a few subtle ways.  Bond leaping onto a Komodo dragon to escape is reminiscent of Bond jumping on Alligator’s in The Man with the Golden Gun, the use of a gun with a hand print signature is also present in Licence to Kill, fighting on top of a train is also used in Octopussy.  This isn’t the full list of references but it’s clear that Sam Mendes made sure he didn’t go over-the-top with how many he included.

His preferred way of celebrating Bond’s past is by looking at the character of Bond, not previous Bond films. We are taken to see Bond’s childhood home which is also the place in which his parents are buried and this offers more of an insight into the character than ever before. The aim of this for Mendes is to reinforce the moral through the film that Bond is still as relevant today as he has been for the past half a century. The way he constructs this idea is through portraying Bond and MI6 at their nadirs. Bond feels betrayed after the pre-title sequence sees him shot and assumed dead (Again!) and the failure of Bond and Eve to fulfil the mission leaves M facing retirement and the 00 section facing disbandment. Despite failing his tests, Bond rises from the ashes and proves his and MI6’s worth and in doing so, Mendes proves that just as Bond in his world will survive, so will the films.

Die Another Day shares a similar plot to Skyfall. The film opens with Bond kidnapped by a North Korean general before being tortured. When he’s released, he is unfit and out of shape yet we never really see Bond struggle. In Skyfall, we see him fail the tests yet in Die Another Day he just has a shave and seems to be back to normal and though Bond in Skyfall does recover quickly, the question of Bond being dated is better enforced through the linking of Bond’s survival with that of MI6.

In Skyfall, in order for Bond and MI6 to survive, Bond has to defeat the film’s villain, Silva, played by Javier Bardem. Bardem is a tremendous villain and his monologue when he is first introduced is a classic piece of Bond cinema. His appearance is that of a classic Bond villain yet his plot, a cyber-attack on MI6, is very modern and continues the underlying theme of old versus new. In Die Another Day, Bond comes up against Toby Stephens as Gustav Graves. If anything, Graves’ henchman, Zao, is far more memorable as a Bond character and though Stephens does a decent enough job, the sub-plot of Graves actually being Colonel Moon who Bond believes to be dead from the pre-title sequence is made clear to the audience before Bond discovers it which I don’t think should happen; Bond should find out things at the same point the audience does. The same can also be said for Miranda Frost being the person who betrayed Bond in North Korea. Before Bond discovers this, the audience firstly see her with Graves but then we see her being briefed by M which makes it obvious she betrayed Bond.

After Bond finds out Frost betrayed him, he is forced to escape from Graves’ ice palace using Grave’s speed car whilst being chased by the Icarus laser. What comes next is, in my opinion, one of the most cringe-worthy scenes in Bond cinema. Bond kite surfing the tsunami caused by the cliff melting away is just too OTT for 007. I know there’s meant to be a certain element of “Only Bond could do that” to the stunts but this takes that sense of fantasy too far. In the Everything or Nothing documentary released to commemorate 50 years of cinematic Bond, Pierce Brosnan himself mocks this scene in the film, laughing at the absurdity of it. As well as this, it looks very poor on the screen.  It is an obvious and poor use of CGI which makes the scene look even more unrealistic. Another aspect of Die Another Day which people claim to be over-the-top is the inclusion of the invisible car, the Aston Martin Vanish. The Vanquish is a gorgeous car and we deserve to see it in all its glory. The invisible aspect of the car helps Bond kill Zao at the end of an awesome car chase but many fans still feel that its use in the film made Bond almost paradoxical. As previously mentioned, Skyfall deals with the past and future in a much better way by looking at cyber-terrorism and making the new Q a computer genius, identifying the new battlefield on which espionage will be acted out. It does not try to make Bond futuristic, Mendes keeps the character and franchise grounded in its past whilst identifying the future they both have.

Skyfall was a box office smash. Taking over a billion pounds it currently stands as the eight highest grossing film of all time, the highest grossing and therefore the most successful Bond film of all time. Though this doesn’t automatically mean it is the best Bond film ever and better than Die Another Day, it shows that a film which set out to prove that after 50 years James Bond is still needed in British Cinema managed to fulfil its aim, creating a buzz around James Bond which arguably hasn’t been seen since the opening few films were released.  However, the film wasn’t the only aspect of Skyfall to achieve widespread success. Adele’s title song was just as much of a hit becoming Number 1 in the UK, winning an Academy Award for Best Original Song, a Brit Award for Single of the Year and a Golden Globe for Best Original Song. Madonna’s title song for Die Another Day also enjoyed some success, reaching Number 3 in the UK and Number 1 in 12 different countries. Despite this, Adele’s song triumphs over it. Whilst Madonna’s song is catchy, Adele’s is classy harking back to the Goldfinger title song by Shirley Bassey. It seems appropriate that Britain’s most iconic film figure should be combined with one of the most musically talented Briton’s and with a Adele return for Bond 24 being rumoured, the films makers were obviously delighted with the job she did.

Die Another Day does have its strengths and in my opinion, it isn’t the worst Bond film ever made. Pierce Brosnan gives another great performance as Bond, there are some nice references to previous films, Halle Berry is a great “Bond Girl” and the hover craft chase in the pre-title sequence as well as the car chase between Bond and Zao is great action. However, Skyfall is far superior in many departments and in doing so marks the 50th Anniversary of Bond in a more suitable way than Die Another Day marked the 40th.  Much credit of this should go to director Sam Mendes though the cinematography by Roger Deakins as well as the performances of Craig, Bardem, Marlohe, Harris and Dench all made Skyfall the success it was.



#2 jmarks4life

jmarks4life

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 295 posts
  • Location:CT, USA

Posted 04 June 2013 - 05:31 PM

Everything in this article is true except Craig's using a reptile to escape is paying homage to LALD , not TMWTGG

#3 AMC Hornet

AMC Hornet

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5857 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:28 AM

...and Graves' satellite being "made out of diamonds."



#4 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

...and Graves' satellite being "made out of diamonds."

 

What was it made out of, then? Tinfoil?



#5 Professor Pi

Professor Pi

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1430 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:37 AM

Another film to be considered as an anniversary film is the tenth Bond movie released on the fifteenth anniversary.  It has nods to Thunderball (underwater), On Her Majesty's Secret Service (skiing), You Only Live Twice (monorail, subs/ships captured, etc.), Doctor No (underwater aquariums), From Russia with Love (train scene), and Goldfinger (crazily gadget laden car, mute metallically murdering henchman.)  Like Skyfall, The Spy Who Loved Me updated Bond to the times and added great iconic moments like the union jack parachute.  Both definitely re-energized the franchise after the sophomore missteps of each actor's tenure. 


Edited by Professor Pi, 05 June 2013 - 04:40 AM.


#6 Guy Haines

Guy Haines

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3075 posts
  • Location:"Special envoy" no more. As of 7/5/15 elected to office somewhere in Nottinghamshire, England.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:35 AM

Another film to be considered as an anniversary film is the tenth Bond movie released on the fifteenth anniversary.  It has nods to Thunderball (underwater), On Her Majesty's Secret Service (skiing), You Only Live Twice (monorail, subs/ships captured, etc.), Doctor No (underwater aquariums), From Russia with Love (train scene), and Goldfinger (crazily gadget laden car, mute metallically murdering henchman.)  Like Skyfall, The Spy Who Loved Me updated Bond to the times and added great iconic moments like the union jack parachute.  Both definitely re-energized the franchise after the sophomore missteps of each actor's tenure. 

Good point, although I'm not sure TSWLM was intended as an anniversary "tribute" film so much as an attempt - and a very successful one - to reinvigorate the series, as you say. I don't think the idea was to insert nods in the direction of certain Bond films and wait for the audience to spot them - rather, I think they reviewed the previous nine films and created a story which included elements from the past which worked well. The result was a film which was hardly original, but very entertaining.



#7 Hansen

Hansen

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 431 posts
  • Location:Paris

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

I can't agree. IMO, SKYFALL is the worst Bond film ever because IMO it does not understand Bond and script has huge plotholes making them even bigger as story takes a 'serious' approach.

Because of that, I enjoy DAD much more, especially the first until Bond comes back to London.



#8 MarkA

MarkA

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 697 posts
  • Location:South East, England

Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:32 PM

I can't agree. IMO, SKYFALL is the worst Bond film ever because IMO it does not understand Bond and script has huge plotholes making them even bigger as story takes a 'serious' approach.

Because of that, I enjoy DAD much more, especially the first until Bond comes back to London.

Other opinions are available.



#9 AMC Hornet

AMC Hornet

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5857 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

 

...and Graves' satellite being "made out of diamonds."

 

What was it made out of, then? Tinfoil?

 

Something like that.

I've seen the film several times, and it never seemed to me that the flexible dish was covered in diamonds, like the one in DAF.

The Icarus project was financed with conflict diamonds, and Graves seemed to have plenty to spare at the end of the film. How many diamonds would it have taken to cover that canopy, and would it still have been as compact and flexible?

Moreover, there's no need for it - you only need one gemstone to generate the beam; the satellite in DAF was visually impressive but impractical.

People assume that Icarus was covered in diamonds simply because it referenced the one in DAF. I'm basing my opinion on the evidence provided by my eyes, rather than on other people's impressions.

I know I'm alone here, but I will continue to defend my position until I make one convert, anyway.

As for which film is the better anniversary entry, I like 'em both for their own reasons, but I prefer DAD overall.

There, I said it!



#10 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:58 PM

I can't agree. IMO, SKYFALL is the worst Bond film ever because IMO it does not understand Bond and script has huge plotholes making them even bigger as story takes a 'serious' approach.

 

How does it "not understand Bond?"



#11 SecretAgentFan

SecretAgentFan

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9055 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 05 June 2013 - 05:47 PM

I´d really like to understand that, too.



#12 Hansen

Hansen

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 431 posts
  • Location:Paris

Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:51 PM

Bond is introduced as a 'spoiled' child. See the scene with M in her flat. He is mad at her whereas she took the right decision. Bond as I saw him knows that perfectly. Bond knows his job. He knows the risks and totally accept the rules. For me, this scene CANNOT exist in Bond universe.
Second, he is definitely not a hero with trauma. He is no Batman, nor Harry Potter. That is what makes him so different and IMO a key reason of why the franchise lasted so long. The death of his parents is a tragedy but he has definetly overcome this and that makes him this hard-edge hero that has become quite rare in films lately.
Third, just realize that because of a very stupid decision (i-e taking M to a lost mansion, giving all the clues to the bad guy about where he is and having for only support a seventy something grumpy old man), he just kill his boss. And however you put it, this is definitely NOT bondian and makes a terrible birthday.

#13 Hansen

Hansen

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 431 posts
  • Location:Paris

Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:01 PM

Again, this is 'from my window' and my interpretation of Bond

#14 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

And your interpretation of SKYFALL.



#15 glidrose

glidrose

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2469 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:04 PM

 

...and Graves' satellite being "made out of diamonds."

 
What was it made out of, then? Tinfoil?

Something like that.
I've seen the film several times, and it never seemed to me that the flexible dish was covered in diamonds, like the one in DAF.
The Icarus project was financed with conflict diamonds, and Graves seemed to have plenty to spare at the end of the film. How many diamonds would it have taken to cover that canopy, and would it still have been as compact and flexible?
Moreover, there's no need for it - you only need one gemstone to generate the beam; the satellite in DAF was visually impressive but impractical.
People assume that Icarus was covered in diamonds simply because it referenced the one in DAF. I'm basing my opinion on the evidence provided by my eyes, rather than on other people's impressions.
I know I'm alone here, but I will continue to defend my position until I make one convert, anyway.
As for which film is the better anniversary entry, I like 'em both for their own reasons, but I prefer DAD overall.
There, I said it!

 
You know what AMC? You're right. There are no diamonds. Full marks. Keep at it. The world needs more than just one convert.

I like DAD too. Not sure which is the better film, tho.

#16 Matt Monro

Matt Monro

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 30 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 12:36 AM

Bond is introduced as a 'spoiled' child. See the scene with M in her flat. He is mad at her whereas she took the right decision. Bond as I saw him knows that perfectly. Bond knows his job. He knows the risks and totally accept the rules. For me, this scene CANNOT exist in Bond universe.
Second, he is definitely not a hero with trauma. He is no Batman, nor Harry Potter. That is what makes him so different and IMO a key reason of why the franchise lasted so long. The death of his parents is a tragedy but he has definetly overcome this and that makes him this hard-edge hero that has become quite rare in films lately.
Third, just realize that because of a very stupid decision (i-e taking M to a lost mansion, giving all the clues to the bad guy about where he is and having for only support a seventy something grumpy old man), he just kill his boss. And however you put it, this is definitely NOT bondian and makes a terrible birthday.

 

Let's see.  He's a orphan who has fallen in love with precisely two women in his life, both of whom died because of him.  Even Moore Bond carries the scars of is wedding day.  How on God's green Earth does this not qualify as trauma?



#17 AMC Hornet

AMC Hornet

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5857 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:24 AM

 

You know what AMC? You're right. There are no diamonds. Full marks. Keep at it. The world needs more than just one convert.

I like DAD too. Not sure which is the better film, tho.

 

Welcome to my corner, Glid.

The quest continues...



#18 graric

graric

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 172 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 04:35 AM

 

Bond is introduced as a 'spoiled' child. See the scene with M in her flat. He is mad at her whereas she took the right decision. Bond as I saw him knows that perfectly. Bond knows his job. He knows the risks and totally accept the rules. For me, this scene CANNOT exist in Bond universe.
Second, he is definitely not a hero with trauma. He is no Batman, nor Harry Potter. That is what makes him so different and IMO a key reason of why the franchise lasted so long. The death of his parents is a tragedy but he has definetly overcome this and that makes him this hard-edge hero that has become quite rare in films lately.
Third, just realize that because of a very stupid decision (i-e taking M to a lost mansion, giving all the clues to the bad guy about where he is and having for only support a seventy something grumpy old man), he just kill his boss. And however you put it, this is definitely NOT bondian and makes a terrible birthday.

 

Let's see.  He's a orphan who has fallen in love with precisely two women in his life, both of whom died because of him.  Even Moore Bond carries the scars of is wedding day.  How on God's green Earth does this not qualify as trauma?

 

 

He also has a couple of scenes with M in DAD that are nearly identical to the one in Skyfall, with Bond 'acting like a spoiled child' (the scene between the two at the Hospital in Hong Kong, and at the train station in London.)
And seeing as how her call to take the shot only resulted in Bond getting shot, and guaranteeing that the Hard-Drive got away...it could be argued that she made the wrong call in the situation.

As has already been covered at the core of Bond there has always been some trauma (even if it is not always explored) again going back to Brosnan's films, in Goldeneye Alec has his little speech asking Bond if the martini's drown out the screams of those he couldn't save (or words to that effect.)
And it's not as if the use of the reference to his parents in this film was to show him having ongoing traumatic issues, like Iron Man 3 did with Tony Stark recently, it was used briefly to give alittle depth to his character (and part of the motivation for why he joined Mi6.)

The goal was to isolate Silva, away from technology, in order to eliminate him (it was only Bond and M per M's request "just us, too many people have died already") It is perfectly likely that M had accepted at this point that it was very likely she would die, her key point was she didn't want anyone else getting in harms way...



#19 SecretAgentFan

SecretAgentFan

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9055 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 06 June 2013 - 05:31 AM

Bond is introduced as a 'spoiled' child. See the scene with M in her flat. He is mad at her whereas she took the right decision. Bond as I saw him knows that perfectly. Bond knows his job. He knows the risks and totally accept the rules. For me, this scene CANNOT exist in Bond universe.
Second, he is definitely not a hero with trauma. He is no Batman, nor Harry Potter. That is what makes him so different and IMO a key reason of why the franchise lasted so long. The death of his parents is a tragedy but he has definetly overcome this and that makes him this hard-edge hero that has become quite rare in films lately.
Third, just realize that because of a very stupid decision (i-e taking M to a lost mansion, giving all the clues to the bad guy about where he is and having for only support a seventy something grumpy old man), he just kill his boss. And however you put it, this is definitely NOT bondian and makes a terrible birthday.

 

1) The "Bond returns to M´s flat"-scene. - He does not return because he wants to sulk. He returns because he has seen that MI6 was attacked, and he offers his help. Of course he knows the risks and accepts the rules. But being shot in the back because your superiors did not trust you to succeed - that gives you the right to complain a bit. 

 

2) Bond has always been a hero with a trauma. Have you forgotten Vesper? Have you forgotten Tracy? And his parents´ death is not played as his life long trauma. It is an important part in his biography that is revealed by Kincaid while Bond is not even in the room. At no time Bond is acting traumatized because of this event in his childhood. 

 

3) First of all: he saves M from Silva´s attack during the hearings. Then he gives M a refuge. And he ends the ongoing confrontation with Silva, killing him before he can shoot M. The only problem is: M has been wounded before. Fatally. But  M knows the risks and accepts this. Just like Bond. Who, by the way, took down an army of Silva´s goons and Silva himself - not bad for one man who has very limited means to defend himself.

 

To give an answer to the thread´s title: SKYFALL is a good anniversary film - and DIE ANOTHER DAY is, too. But DAD is geared towards the first era, capping that with all its known excesses and a greatest hits-formula. SKYFALL, as the whole Craig era, chooses another path. To say one is better than the other is pointless. They are different. One can prefer the one or the other. I like both.



#20 Hansen

Hansen

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 431 posts
  • Location:Paris

Posted 06 June 2013 - 06:32 AM

We could discuss this over and over and I know I am minority on this.
I will just add a couple of points to make mine.
1 - Bond vs M. I do not buy Bond sulking (for me this is what he does when he is on this beach fu... And drinking). The guy is a soldier and knows where his duty is. He should not need seing MI6 HQ blowing to remember this.
2 - Trauma : I agree. Death of Vesper and Tracy are for me the perfect balance that gives hime humanity. The death of his parents which is clearly presented as a trauma in Skyfall has always seemed overcome by Bond and never been an issue to deal with his life. Plus it makes him a Potter/Wayne-like when Bond has always been a leader in terms of heroship (point to be discussed in light of Jason Bourne also).
3 - End of Skyfall : however you put it, it is non-sense. I can buy the mansion, but how can he imagine he will win against 40 bad guy with two elderly and a shotgun and 'Home Alone' tricks ? Regarding M ready to die. Also I can't buy it. It would mean letting Silva win and having the NOC list lost in nature.
Despite great acting and directing, tnose things have totally thrown me off the film and explain why it is for me a totally missed celebration