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Most wasted moments in Bond Films


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#31 tdalton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:13 PM

tdalton,

 

Even if i agreed that CR  wasn't a great adaptation of the novel, it is still a far far better adaptation that any of the other movies (with perhaps only FRWL coming close, but that movie threw out the great high concept first part of the novel and the breathtaking cliff hanger ending).

 

However, in CR  i personally feel they did a good job keeping so much that was great from the novel, but managing to sell it very successfully to a modern audience with all their expectations of an action-thriller met (much like the Bourne trilogy had done, proving an action film could also be a great thriller).

 

Sure, there's elements i'm sad they dropped, such as the extent and specifics of Fleming's the truly gruelling torture scene; the explosion which Bond miraculously escaped unscathed thanks to a lucky palm tree; and as you rightly say, the paranoia of the final act of the novel.

 

The biggest let down was the throwaway fashion in which they chose to deliver the final line of the book, "The bitch is dead", as though afraid of alienating the audience. After all, that alienation, to a certain extent was doubtless Fleming's intention - to state clearly and bluntly how much Bond had changed by the story's end - how dangerous and focused he'd now become - the moral question of cowboy's and indians left behind with Vesper.

 

Now, as McCartney said 'If you've got a job to do you gotta do it well', and Bond's job is now vengeance on SMERSH. Fleming new just how much that would make readers yearn for the next book.

 

In the movie the essence of this was only partially rescued by the cold blooded take down of Mr White in the epilogue.

 

But despite all this, the CR movie is easily the best adaptation of the series and if you don't think it's a good adaptation then what does that say about the rest of them?

 

I think the first thing that I'd say in response is that, when it comes to the other "adaptation" of Fleming's novels (and by that, I mean anything that's not DN, FRWL, GF, TB, OHMSS, FYEO, LTK, and CR), I don't really even consider them "adaptations", as they aren't even the slightest bit concerned with trying to actually adapt anything from the novels, so that kind of limits the pool of films from the outset.  If you were to ask me what I thought of those films as adaptations of Fleming's work, then I'd say they're absolute crap, because that's what they are strictly as adaptations.  As films on their own, they're of varying degrees (some are great, some are pretty bad), but strictly as adaptations of Fleming's work, they're not particularly good.

 

When it comes to Casino Royale, I'm not as impressed with it as an adaptation because it's easy to see where it could have been made both better as a film and as an adaptation while still not alienating the audience.  It's clear, from the parkour, Miami, and sinking house sequences that EON wanted to imbue the film with certain elements that made the Brosnan films financially successful.  These are scenes that really just aren't needed, especially when the best action sequences of the film are the smaller, lower-key ones such as the pre-titles and the stairwell fight. 

 

The decision to base the film around the threat of terrorism, which already forces the film to drift towards standard action fare of the time, is misguided when they could have truly updated Fleming's novel by basing Le Chiffre's plot around trafficking.  Taken proved, albeit after Casino Royale, that a film that revolves around human trafficking can be successful and not turn off its audience.  If EON had put the same kind of bravery into developing the script for the film as they did in hiring a blonde actor to play James Bond, they could have come up with something that would have been fresh and original, both for the franchise as well as for the genre as a whole (as they would have beaten Taken to the punch) and allowed Casino Royale to both remain more faithful to the novel as well as not have to have the story launch from the already stale plot device of setting it against the global war on terror.

 

While I would say it's true that they did adapt chunks of the novel for the screen, they missed very important aspects of it as well.  In terms of what they got right, it mostly resides in the fact that they included the three major components of the novel: the card game, the torture sequence, and the final line.  The problem is, they watered each of those down as well.  The novel's final line is simply a throwaway here, which is just annoying to say the least.  The card game is poorly put together (nobody can keep track of how much money is actually at stake, they only show us hands that are of extreme importance to the plot, and the card combinations that are held by the players, especially in the final hand, are so ridiculously improbable that it's almost funny to watch them continually turn over the cards and one-up each other as they go around the table.  Then there's the torture sequence which, while solid, doesn't even begin to touch that of the novel. 

 

But the biggest problem for me with Casino Royale, is the fact that they basically ignore the final third of the novel.  It would have been some of the most compelling stuff of the entire cinematic series had they shown Vesper breaking down on film as paranoia overtook her and ultimately drove her to her death.  Instead, that's replaced with a house sinking into the canals of Venice.  Some excellent acting opportunities for both Craig and Green, as well as the opportunity for some truly great, tension filled moments as well as some romantic moments as well, are discarded in favor of blowing more things up.  It's a disappointment to say the least.



#32 Hansen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:54 PM

CR is great book but story belongs to the fifties as Vesper's character (as Bond to a certain extent). The final third ofthe book at the auberge du Versoix would look pretty cheesy (or Nicholas Spark's) as per today's standards.
For the game, I tend not to agree. Even if I was not very keen with poker instead of baccarat when I first heard about it, I think it was pretty well done and more 'convincing' as Baccarat is honestly pure luck and seems too much over the top to imagine using it to defeat an archenemy.

#33 tdalton

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

CR is great book but story belongs to the fifties as Vesper's character (as Bond to a certain extent). The final third ofthe book at the auberge du Versoix would look pretty cheesy (or Nicholas Spark's) as per today's standards.

 

It wouldn't have been cheesy if EON had committed to doing that sequence of the novel correctly.  It could have made for some great, psychologically harrowing moments as we watch Vesper fall apart both emotionally and psychologically.  The setting could have been altered, but the contents of that stretch of the book should have been retained rather than rolled into an action sequence.

 

It would also be hard to criticize something like that for being cheesy when they opted to go with the "little finger" scene, one of the cheesiest exchanges dialogue in a "serious" Bond film.



#34 Odd Jobbies

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

 

not hiring Lewis Collins

 

More like a near miss.

 

At the time nobody bat an eyelid. I remember a couple of reports claiming Collins was the next Bond and most people - especially fans of THE PROFESSIONALS and tabloid hacks - pretty much agreed he was a natural fit for the job. I seem to remember Collins even was a favourite in a couple of fan polls. In the industry though there were stories about seriously unprofessional behaviour and I'm not sure he really had a chance. The last thing Broccoli could have wanted was a cocky lead actor who jeopardises his production with private escapades and stuntmen brawls. And that was Lewis Collins in the early 1980s for you.   

 

Most wasted moments in the series? Not acknowledging Moore's age in FYEO perhaps. That one could actually have profited from Moore's idea. Instead he's seen running up steps as if he was twenty years younger and at least twenty pounds lighter. 

RE: Lewis Collins, obviously we'll never know, but whatever his off screen antics were doesn't dictate how good a Bond he could've been. Personally i think he'd he'd have brought a visceral and direct danger to the role that it very much needs, never more so than in the doldrums of 80's 'lite-comedy-Bond.

 

So for me it's indeed a wasted opportunity. The movie Who Dares Wins has some dodgy 80's cheese to it, but it also makes an excellent case for Collins as Bond. Ironically his hard as nails SAS officer is exactly where they ended up going with Craig in CR. On a side note Who Dares Wins has a better score (by Roy Budd of the classic Get Carter score) than most of the 80's Bond movies and Stanley Kubrick was a fan :)

 

I agree completely with your opinion on Moore playing his age in FYEO. Weaknesses should always be flipped in a production, not embarrassingly denied; If Moore had played his age the narrative wouldn't have changed yet worked far better (lamenting his late wife, turning down the young girl's proposition, climbing the steps and the 'Detente' ending - age has brought diplomacy to Bond's philosophy.


Edited by Odd Jobbies, 21 April 2013 - 09:30 PM.


#35 Skylla

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

 

 

not hiring Lewis Collins

 

More like a near miss.

 

At the time nobody bat an eyelid. I remember a couple of reports claiming Collins was the next Bond and most people - especially fans of THE PROFESSIONALS and tabloid hacks - pretty much agreed he was a natural fit for the job. I seem to remember Collins even was a favourite in a couple of fan polls. In the industry though there were stories about seriously unprofessional behaviour and I'm not sure he really had a chance. The last thing Broccoli could have wanted was a cocky lead actor who jeopardises his production with private escapades and stuntmen brawls. And that was Lewis Collins in the early 1980s for you.   

 

Most wasted moments in the series? Not acknowledging Moore's age in FYEO perhaps. That one could actually have profited from Moore's idea. Instead he's seen running up steps as if he was twenty years younger and at least twenty pounds lighter. 

RE: Lewis Collins, obviously we'll never know, but whatever his off screen antics were doesn't dictate how good a Bond he could've been. Personally i think he'd he'd have brought a visceral and direct danger to the role that it very much needs, never more so than in the doldrums of 80's 'lite-comedy-Bond.

 

So for me it's indeed a wasted opportunity. The movie Who Dares Wins has some dodgy 80's cheese to it, but it also makes an excellent case for Collins as Bond. Ironically his hard as nails SAS officer is exactly where they ended up going with Craig in CR. On a side note Who Dares Wins has a better score (by Roy Budd of the classic Get Carter score) than most of the 80's Bond movies and Stanley Kubrick was a fan :)

 

I agree completely with your opinion on Moore playing his age in FYEO. Weaknesses should always be flipped in a production, not embarrassingly denied; If Moore had played his age the narrative wouldn't have changed yet worked far better (lamenting his late wife, turning down the young girl's proposition, climbing the steps and the 'Detente' ending - age has brought diplomacy to Bond's philosophy.

That´s what I thought. Everything of the tough things they did with Craig (hand to hand-Combat or more jump and run etc.) who had to train very hard for that, Lewis Collins could have done on a monday morning. Ending RM´s arc with FYEO as older agent and starting with LC a bit grittier and tougher: I still would pay to see that...



#36 Skylla

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:58 PM

I would have to disagree on Casino Royale and say that the film could also fit under this concept of wasted moments in the Bond films.  EON's decision to front-load the film with unnecessarily long action sequences (the parkour chase) as well as action sequences that are almost entirely unnecessary (Miami), led to them having to treat the Bond/Vesper romance in the second half of the film as almost an afterthought.  What should have been a final third that featured some great tension between Bond and Vesper as well as Vesper's descent into a terrifying paranoia instead is reduced to an overblown and implausible action sequence, which totally dilutes whatever small parts of the final third of Fleming's novel that they chose to use there. 

This is a perfect reflection of my opinion of CR. What a waste of opportunities here. It´s almost like two different films: The gritty, perfect Thriller and the old formula film with the same M as before and the three big, totally out of place-action sequences  But I guess they used all the boldness to go with a blonde Bond. Maybe to make a dark Thriller like the superb novel would have been one risk too many at once. As mentioned later, Taken on the other hand showed us that there is still a market for Thrillers without overblown action sequences.



#37 Hansen

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 02:56 PM

It would also be hard to criticize something like that for being cheesy when they opted to go with the "little finger" scene, one of the cheesiest exchanges dialogue in a "serious" Bond film.

Good point. It seems they chose to 'soften' the guy and 'harden' the girl.

Honestly, I prefer the cinematic Vesper than the one from the novel where she looks too much like a lost mistress in detress. I never fully bought that Bond could totally fall for her as she seems to strongly piss him off sometimes...



#38 Major Tallon

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:39 PM

I don't see how a human trafficking story would work.  In the novel, Le Chiffre could legally invest Soviet money in a string of brothels and hope to make money, only to have the entire investment vanish when prostitution was suddenly and unexpectedly outlawed.  In a stroke, a huge investment was wiped out.  In the film, Le Chiffre could legally bet his client's money against the airplane developer and hope to make money by the plane's destruction, only to have Bond intervene (not an unnecessary action sequence at all in the context of the story) and frustrate the scheme.  Again, a huge investment was wiped out in a stroke.

 

How would this work in the context of human trafficking?  How would Le Chiffre manage an investment so vast as to risk a huge fortune of, say, over a hundred million dollars, and how would that investment be wiped out at a stroke, so as to force him to the gambling tables in a desperate bid to recoup?  Trafficking is already illegal and the subject of various worldwide anti-crime initiatives, so a sudden change in the law would not provide the impetus.  There is no central focus of trafficking that could suddenly be destroyed.  As a matter of storytelling, the idea is more abstract, not particularly plausible, and violates the moviemaker's mandate to show, not to tell. 

 

I wouldn't have had a problem with the film adapting literally the final sequence of the novel, and I'd really like to see P & W's original draft that apparently strove to do just that, but it woud have made for quite a downer of an ending.  I would have liked to see it, but the filmmakers are in the money-making business.  Schucks, CR is frequently criticized (terribly unjustly, in my view) for being too "gritty."  I can imagine what a sizeable portion of the fan base, let alone the general moviegoing public, would have said if the novel's ending had been used.  I'm no great fan of the "little finger" line, but it really is just a single line of dialog.  I lived with years of awful puns; I can live with this line.

 

As I read dozens of criticisms of "Casino Royale" on this thread and others, I find fans willing to cut all manner of sequences.  In total, these suggested cuts would trim the film away to almost nothing.  Speaking for myself, I love the film (and yes, I particularly love the stairwell fight) just the way it is.  It's a worthy updating of Fleming's novel, and, despite the compromises that have been made in bringing it to the screen, it remains for me what I've felt it to be since the first day I saw it.  "Casino Royale" is the finest James Bond film of our generation.



#39 tdalton

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:46 PM

At least the trafficking idea is a logical leap from the brothel idea in the novel, in terms of keeping in the same general area of criminology. The same criticisms that you apply to the trafficking scheme also apply to the terrorism plot that the film actually does employ. His investment of the money is legal, yes, but what he does behind the scenes to manipulate that transaction is an act of terrorism. One could use that exact same template that the film uses for its cliched terrorism plot and apply it to a trafficking storyline, having something along the lines of a chain of brothels serving as the "legal" enterprise that Le Chiffre is investing in while he's forced to use something that is both highly illegal as well as morally reprehensible (trafficking in this case) in order to bolster the "legal" enterprise.

The basic arc of the first half of the film plays out similarly, in that Le Chiffre makes a legal transaction that requires an illegal and morally reprehensible act occurring behind the scenes in order to bolster the legal transaction. In this case, Bond either disrupts the trafficking scheme to the point that it can no longer function or he brings it to the attention of a government that is in a position to do something about it, thus causing Le Chiffre's legal transaction to fail, just as it does in the film.

#40 The Shark

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:06 AM

So for me it's indeed a wasted opportunity. The movie Who Dares Wins has some dodgy 80's cheese to it, but it also makes an excellent case for Collins as Bond. Ironically his hard as nails SAS officer is exactly where they ended up going with Craig in CR. On a side note Who Dares Wins has a better score (by Roy Budd of the classic Get Carter score) than most of the 80's Bond movies and Stanley Kubrick was a fan :)

 

IIRC, Kubrick liked Judy Davis's performance, though I can't imagine him thinking much of the film.



#41 Major Tallon

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:07 AM

Don't get me wrong, tdalton, I admire your desire to see something akin to the novel brought to the screen, but I doubt that trafficking would work.  It would be difficult to invest money in such an illegal (and obviously thoroughly reprehensible) enterprise on the scale ultimately needed to force Le Chiffre to the tables without alerting the forces of the law and leading to his arrest long before he got to the casino.  In both the novel and the film as written, there was no evidence that Le Chiffre had done anything illegal when he went to the tables, and the criminal justice system couldn't be employed against him.  That's why the apparent legality of the original investment made narrative sense, as well as setting up the sudden catastrophic failure of the plan that drove Le Chiffre's desperate plan to recoup.  I just don't think the unwinding of a trafficking scheme works in narrative terms, and certainly not in cinematic ones.  More fundamentally, I don't think that the approach they used, as opposed to the one you'd have preferred, in any way makes CR a poor film.

 

Still, had they gone with your idea, I'd have been interested to see how they'd have done it, and I'd have wished them every success.



#42 tdalton

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:29 AM

Sorry, Major Tallon, if I came off a bit irritable or strong in the first post.  Certainly wasn't my intention, although reading it back I definitely think that I did.  Apologies.  :)

 

I think they way they'd go about it would be exactly the way they go about the terrorism angle in the film.  Le Chiffre hires a terrorist through a middle man (Demetrious) in order to carry out the attack on the Miami airport.  Putting that against the background of brothels and trafficking, Le Chiffre, instead of hiring a terrorist, invests his money in a subsidiary or a middle man (this could still be Demetrious) who then acts as a launderer of the money and then puts it into a trafficking scheme that is ultimately run by someone else.  It would give Le Chiffre the deniability that he would need to claim that his business ventures are in fact legal, with the suspicion behind him being that he deliberately brings in trafficked "employees" to work in his establishments.  He would use the same kind of denials and half-hearted promises to investigate the legality of their employees that we see with companies that hire other types of illegal workers for what are otherwise legitimate business ventures.  In this case, Bond would be turned on to Le Chiffre's trail much in the same way he is in the film, by first encountering Demetrious and his network of individuals.  Once he finds the connection to Le Chiffre from Demetrious, the logical conclusion would be to take out the third party who operates the trafficking circle, which directly leads to either the closure of Le Chiffre's business ventures or the full exposure of their illegality, either of which drives Le Chiffre to the desperate position of needing to go recoup his funds at the Baccarat table.


Edited by tdalton, 24 April 2013 - 01:35 AM.


#43 uvhadyrsix

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:52 AM

ELVIS from QUANTUM OF SOLACE a very wasted character in my opinion.

 

The cut scenes from ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE just knowing they exist i need to see them before i die.

 

The time wasted between LICENCE TO KILL and GOLDENEYE.

 

Lost footage

 

Director's who delete good scenes just to cover their lazy preparations.



#44 Major Tallon

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 01:59 AM

I'm not bothered in the least, tdalton.  I've enjoyed our discussion. 



#45 Guy Haines

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:37 AM

ELVIS from QUANTUM OF SOLACE a very wasted character in my opinion.

 

The cut scenes from ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE just knowing they exist i need to see them before i die.

 

The time wasted between LICENCE TO KILL and GOLDENEYE.

 

Lost footage

 

Director's who delete good scenes just to cover their lazy preparations.

I agree with all five of these, save that I don't need to see those missing OHMSS scenes before I pop my clogs. I'd like to see them though. I thought the Elvis character was wasted, and looked a bit drippy - a character less like an "Elvis" I can't imagine. And the 1989 to 1995 hiatus was a terrible waste of time - we could have got one, possibly two more Dalton films, or Brosnan a bit earlier in that period.



#46 Matt Monro

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 04:51 PM

 

not hiring Lewis Collins

 

More like a near miss.

 

At the time nobody bat an eyelid. I remember a couple of reports claiming Collins was the next Bond and most people - especially fans of THE PROFESSIONALS and tabloid hacks - pretty much agreed he was a natural fit for the job. I seem to remember Collins even was a favourite in a couple of fan polls. In the industry though there were stories about seriously unprofessional behaviour and I'm not sure he really had a chance. The last thing Broccoli could have wanted was a cocky lead actor who jeopardises his production with private escapades and stuntmen brawls. And that was Lewis Collins in the early 1980s for you.   

 

Most wasted moments in the series? Not acknowledging Moore's age in FYEO perhaps. That one could actually have profited from Moore's idea. Instead he's seen running up steps as if he was twenty years younger and at least twenty pounds lighter. 

 

Ah.  So all these years you've been watching the director's cut version, where Moore isn't huffing and puffing as he goes up the steps, and ravishes Bibi as requested instead of physically removing her from his room?



#47 Dustin

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:30 PM

 

Most wasted moments in the series? Not acknowledging Moore's age in FYEO perhaps. That one could actually have profited from Moore's idea. Instead he's seen running up steps as if he was twenty years younger and at least twenty pounds lighter. 

 

Ah.  So all these years you've been watching the director's cut version, where Moore isn't huffing and puffing as he goes up the steps, and ravishes Bibi as requested instead of physically removing her from his room?

 

 

Well, the amount of huffing and puffing when taking those stairs is nowhere near what you'd get even from a trained marathon runner, let alone a middle-aged secret agent. I happen to know about such matters.

 

As for Bibi, she is evidently meant to be the under-age Lolita-type who couldn't well be touched by the hero, even if the hero happened to be only 19, so that scene isn't aimed at depicting a "seasoned" Bond.

 

No, supposedly Moore had the idea to show Bond in pursuit of a villain, thereby reaching the physical limits of his age and then using his brains to catch up with the guy. That's a bit different from what FYEO delivers, isn't it?  



#48 Hansen

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:15 PM

definitely agree with you on that Dustin. FYEO shows Bond relying more on his brain than on gadgets and luck (see him using shoe-lace during climbing sequence)

#49 Dustin

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:19 PM

Oh, he's improvising well enough. The mountain climb also saw Bond using his knife-throwing skills with a piton, very inventive.