72 replies to this topic

[SecretAgentFan]

By the way - all Gardner novels will be released as one package for kindle in September, if anyone is interested:

 

http://www.amazon.co...ner Bond kindle

[OmarB]

Odd to see such a dim view of Gardner taken.  Seriously, he's my favorite of the lot.  I grew up in the 80's though and those were the contemporary books for me growing up.

[Gothamite]

It's very hard to get a solid grasp of what books the site in general prefers overall. It seems like every book one person loves another hates. Could we get a poll?

 

It's strange that I'm so interested in the continuation novels when I haven't even actually read through all the Fleming novels (still haven't read Diamonds, FRWL,TSWLM, YOLT, TMWTGG and most of the short stories). Needless to say I'll be making that my priority in preparation for Bond 24.

 

There's just something so fascinating about other authors attempting to soldier on with the character despite changing times and trends. I've read the two Wood novels (JBTSWLM was amazing, Moonraker sadly was not) Licence Renewed (a bit bland, very little resemblance to Fleming) and the novelisation of DAD which I was told redeemed the film (it didn't). 

Edited by Gothamite, 13 August 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Dustin]

It's very hard to get a solid grasp of what books the site in general prefers overall. It seems like every book one person loves another hates. Could we get a poll?

 

Good idea. Only meets with a bit of a hurdle there: we can only add polls with a maximum of 25 (multiple) options. Right now the continuations are well past this number with the Young Bond series, the Moneypenny Diaries and the different film novelizations. I therefore chose to ask here only for the 'straight' literary continuations with the adult James Bond as the main character.

Edited by Dustin, 13 August 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[glidrose]

Shame to miss the Pearson, Wood and Higson books.

 

Can't you have two polls? I'm pretty sure you can have two polls in the same thread. I've seen it done many times here before.

 

Ah, didn't see this thread http://debrief.comma...s-and-prequels/

Edited by glidrose, 13 August 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[Hansen]

as  a huge Boyd's fan I am proud to be the first voter for Solo.

Call undestructible faith 

[Dustin]

Can't you have two polls? I'm pretty sure you can have two polls in the same thread. I've seen it done many times here before.

Going to look into this, please stand by.

[Dustin]

Indeed, should have tried entering another question.

 

Tried to merge both topics, unfortunately this would have meant to lose one poll. So I settled for second best, inserting the film tie-ins, Young Bond and Moneypenny series in a second question. So please vote again, should your preferences tend to these. To do this you may have to delete your earlier vote first.

 

Please excuse any inconveniences caused by this, I have little (read: null) experience with the poll-function.

Edited by Dustin, 14 August 2013 - 05:10 AM.

[Leigh Burne]

Really glad I came across this thread. I've always been a fan of the Bond books, but I've never read any of the continuation novels (save Devil May Care) and I figured it was time I tried a few out.

 

I'm working through the Flemings again at the moment because it's been a good few years since I read them, but once I'm done I'm hoping to try out some of the follow-on books. Looks like Colonel Sun holds the lead for the straight-up novels. I'll have to try and track down a used copy because I don't have a Kindle! At least the Gardners have recently been re-printed, I'll probably try the first few of those.

[Dustin]

By the way - all Gardner novels will be released as one package for kindle in September, if anyone is interested:

http://www.amazon.co...ner Bond kindle

On a related note: the first six Fleming originals are currently available for Kindle in 'Double the 007'-packages.

http://www.amazon.de...=Double the 007

[Walecs]

Shame to miss the Pearson, Wood and Higson books.

 

Can't you have two polls? I'm pretty sure you can have two polls in the same thread. I've seen it done many times here before.

 

Ah, didn't see this thread http://debrief.comma...s-and-prequels/

 

Apparently I don't have permission to view this topic...

[Dustin]

Shame to miss the Pearson, Wood and Higson books.

Can't you have two polls? I'm pretty sure you can have two polls in the same thread. I've seen it done many times here before.

Ah, didn't see this thread http://debrief.comma...s-and-prequels/

Apparently I don't have permission to view this topic...

Nobody does. For the simple reason it's deleted. It was a poll-only concerning Young Bond, Moneypenny Diaries and film novelizations and the poll has now been included here. It's why I've posted this above:

Indeed, should have tried entering another question.

Tried to merge both topics, unfortunately this would have meant to lose one poll. So I settled for second best, inserting the film tie-ins, Young Bond and Moneypenny series in a second question. So please vote again, should your preferences tend to these. To do this you may have to delete your earlier vote first.

Please excuse any inconveniences caused by this, I have little (read: null) experience with the poll-function.

[glidrose]

Thanks Dustin for adding the second question.

 

One not-so-small quibble. You forgot Pearson's book. How about the Mascott book too?

 

Should we include the Harvard Lampoon Alligator parody? On one hand we don't want to include parodies, but as far as parodies go this reads more like an official Fleming-Bond work than many of the post-Fleming Bond novels (I'm looking at you Gardner-Benson-Deaver).

 

Again, thanks for your hard work, Dustin.

[Dustin]

One not-so-small quibble. You forgot Pearson's book. How about the Mascott book too?

 

 

Good call on the Authorised Biography, completely forgot about that. Though it's perhaps more a case of meta-fiction, fiction about fiction, pretending to expose the 'truth' about its subject. Anyway, I fixed this oversight.

 

Mascott, no. That one concerns the exploits of another person who just happens to share the name with his 'uncle'. It's really one step too far removed from the character of James Bond. Were we to include that we'd also have to deal with the adventures of the real ornithologist James Bond (titled 'Birdwatcher' perhaps?). And perhaps Anthony Horowitz' - pretty good - Alex Rider series, as they are at least partially re-narrations of the originals. From there it's just a small step to include most spy fiction after 1953 as 'inspired by' James Bond. As we are looking for continuations I think we will have to stick with the basic rule that these must involve the character of James Bond as a protagonist - not necessarily the main protagonist - and that he has to be recognisably meant to be the James Bond Fleming wrote about.

 

As is even that definition would leave room to argue to include NIGHT PROBE! as one of its characters is evidently meant to be Bond living under an assumed name. Where to draw the line? No, we'll stick with what is conventionally known as 'official' continuations. It's also a bit debatable if Deaver's CARTE BLANCHE shouldn't be included in the second set, as that one tries to reboot the literary character and probably should be judged on its own terms rather than by the example its predecessors set. 

Edited by Dustin, 15 August 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[glidrose]

Good points.

 

Now Dustin voted for Wood's JBAMR but not JBTSWLM. Usually people prefer the earlier work, not the later. I gotta know Dustin's reasons.

[Gothamite]

Thanks Dustin!

I think Icebreaker and High Time to Kill are ones I'd like to check out.

 

I'd like to read Colonel Sun eventually, but as it was written so close to original Fleming, I feel like it possibly wasn't as experimental as those later ones...if that makes sense? By all accounts Sun is better, just that I think it's less of the kind of thing I'd be looking for in a Bond novel not written by Ian Fleming. 

Edited by Gothamite, 15 August 2013 - 11:13 PM.

[Dustin]

COLONEL SUN is pretty close to Fleming, and not just in terms of its historic closeness to the times when once-per-year Fleming published a Bond novel. Amis was a big fan and had studied his topic extensively in his earlier THE JAMES BOND DOSSIER, which is recommended reading for the original Fleming canon. Yet CS is also a most revolutionary Bond adventure in that it concerns the abduction of a central character in Bond's universe, something not before done. Also the villain is attracted towards Bond in a most unconventional sadistic manner, one that sees him changing his main objective from a terror-attack and misinformation op to the personal agenda of crushing Bond's persona in a ghastly torture session, completely dismissing any professional thought for a possible gain of information from his victims. As such this pre-empts plots of later continuations which employ the destruction of Bond himself as a main aim of the villain with increasing frequency from FOR SPECIAL SERVICES onwards. COLONEL SUN was there before and on the whole did this theme the most justice.

 

Why going for JAMES BOND AND MOONRAKER, rather than JB-TSWLM? When revisiting the book last year (or was that the year before? no idea) I was a bit put off by the feeling that, at one point on the winding road that was to be TSWLM's film script, the film was somehow supposed to be a (film-)FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE Mk II. It's there in numerous elements, the KGB/SMERSH plot in Austria that was to become the pts; the Amasova character that apparently was changed to be Tatjana in one of the many scripts; the last chapter when Captain Carter appears to apologise for doing his job and then Anja for the final Bond-in-bed-with-girl frames.

 

I still like the book, but since learning about the many different scripts handed in I tend to ponder what could have been. For some reason I don't have that problem with MOONRAKER. It's even more camp-and-cabaret on screen, but the book turns it into a tight and bloody little thriller affair and this embodies perfectly the two sides of James Bond: easygoing family entertainment, with crunchy bits that turn out to be hideous and appalling when you spit out one for closer inspection. Look at Jim's 007th Minute on MOONRAKER: people charred to the bones by rocket exhausts, a whole planet's human population to be gassed, a scheme to resettle earth with perfect specimens of Aryan-master DNA from the skies. Fans often lament that MOONRAKER wasn't more like the book. I tend to think it's a lot like the book, only thought to the next step, the Marshall amps turned to 11 and the Nazi villain's ludicrously complicated Blitz-London scheme replaced by with what could have been a real Nazi operation of epic proportions. Only we hardly take note for all the spectacle and fun Bond's mission let's us have with him.

 

The book isn't exploring this particular element any deeper in the end, that's true. But for me it provides a guide through all the circus acts that make up most of MOONRAKER's actual plot. While it's still close enough to the film I've seen on the big screen. JAMES BOND - THE SPY WHO LOVED ME in turn doesn't remind me of the film at all, strange as it may seem. That's why I chose MR over JBTSWLM.     

[Gothamite]

Someone voted for 'Cold'. I've heard absolutely nothing but disdain for that one. 

Does the voter care to comment?

[5thstreet]

Colonel Sun, the first 4 Gardner.

Benson is like reading Batman.

[Gothamite]

Benson is like reading Batman.

 

Good Batman or bad Batman? 

(My username should indicate where my loyalties lie...   )

Edited by Gothamite, 16 August 2013 - 10:51 PM.

[Gothamite]

Why going for JAMES BOND AND MOONRAKER, rather than JB-TSWLM? When revisiting the book last year (or was that the year before? no idea) I was a bit put off by the feeling that, at one point on the winding road that was to be TSWLM's film script, the film was somehow supposed to be a (film-)FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE Mk II. It's there in numerous elements, the KGB/SMERSH plot in Austria that was to become the pts; the Amasova character that apparently was changed to be Tatjana in one of the many scripts; the last chapter when Captain Carter appears to apologise for doing his job and then Anja for the final Bond-in-bed-with-girl frames.

 

I still like the book, but since learning about the many different scripts handed in I tend to ponder what could have been. For some reason I don't have that problem with MOONRAKER. It's even more camp-and-cabaret on screen, but the book turns it into a tight and bloody little thriller affair and this embodies perfectly the two sides of James Bond: easygoing family entertainment, with crunchy bits that turn out to be hideous and appalling when you spit out one for closer inspection. Look at Jim's 007th Minute on MOONRAKER: people charred to the bones by rocket exhausts, a whole planet's human population to be gassed, a scheme to resettle earth with perfect specimens of Aryan-master DNA from the skies. Fans often lament that MOONRAKER wasn't more like the book. I tend to think it's a lot like the book, only thought to the next step, the Marshall amps turned to 11 and the Nazi villain's ludicrously complicated Blitz-London scheme replaced by with what could have been a real Nazi operation of epic proportions. Only we hardly take note for all the spectacle and fun Bond's mission let's us have with him.

 

The book isn't exploring this particular element any deeper in the end, that's true. But for me it provides a guide through all the circus acts that make up most of MOONRAKER's actual plot. While it's still close enough to the film I've seen on the big screen. JAMES BOND - THE SPY WHO LOVED ME in turn doesn't remind me of the film at all, strange as it may seem. That's why I chose MR over JBTSWLM.     

 

I'll admit, Drax's speech about how overpopulated the planet is becoming and how the only recourse is war and annihilation is probably the most haunting moment in either of the two books. He's really well written here.  

[glidrose]

Thanks for your answers, Dustin. I agree too that JBTSWLM feels less like the film (though more like a novel in its own right) than JBAMR. Fantastic insights explaining how the film Moonraker uses the Fleming source material to go off in a different but true-to-the-idea-of-the-original direction. Never thought about it like that but you are right.

I came close to also checking "Cold" as a favorite. May still do it one of these days if I ever get around to re-reading the book. Seem to recall that for all its sloppiness it's a much tighter work than most of Gardner's other Bond novels.

Herein lies the problem. If someone bothers to check which ones I marked, they get this list:

CS (Amis)

JBTAB (Pearson)

JB,TSWLM (Wood)

JBAMR (Wood)

NLF (Gardner)

All five Higsons

Devil May Care (Faulks)

And yet there's no bloody way I'd put them all on the same level. Its just that as others have mentioned enough times over the years, most of the continuations are so bloody awful that even a borderline pass like "Double or Die" which barely got on my list - I think its Higson's weakest Bond novel - seems like a blooming classic. And Devil May Care is probably the weakest book on the list. Again, I debated whether to include it. I did but only because the fan base pompously underrates it - I'm convinced people trash it for reasons other than what's between the covers. Parts of this very uneven novel are outstanding. At its best it does read like a missing Fleming novel.

[Dustin]

And Devil May Care is probably the weakest book on the list. Again, I debated whether to include it. I did but only because the fan base pompously underrates it - I'm convinced people trash it for reasons other than what's between the covers. Parts of this very uneven novel are outstanding. At its best it does read like a missing Fleming novel.

Now that is saying a lot.

In my view DMC is just too undecided about its own nature. Is it farce? Is it pastiche? Is it serious thriller? Is it tongue-in-cheek celebration of a pop culture icon? It wants to be all and - to me - fails in every respect. A dog flattened by the villain's Mercedes and a tennis match where the villain cheats by a device to lift the net are possibly meant as a nod to Fleming's use of bizarre elements. But all they achieve is to remind me of a Tom & Jerry cartoon. Motorcycle riders appearing from nowhere, attacking, failing and disappearing without any consequence for Bond's mood or the story as a whole - in a Fleming work these things would have happened for a reason, would have an explanation that isn't necessarily logic but comprehensible within the parameters of his tale. With Faulks these just happen. Because the scene is reminiscent of an original one by Fleming, no other reason. This shortcoming can be found throughout the book, an assortment of polished Fleming reminiscences that doesn't make up a coherent storyline, and too little original ideas by Faulks (are there any?) to fill the gaps.

Could have been a decent Bond-satire, though. It just would have needed an author with the guts to hand in a comedy Bond and stand his ground*.


*Not in the infamous sense that phrase has been used in recently.

[SecretAgentFan]

Finally found the time during my vacation to read the first continuation novel on my list: COLONEL SUN.

 

And I must say: pretty, pretty good!  At times I really got the feeling that this could have been written by Fleming.  It was fast-paced, offered lots of detailed atmosphere for the locations, had Bond really being Bond (the Fleming way...) and was a very enjoyable experience for me.  I could have done with less detail during the torture chapter (what Bond has to endure here is so much that it is hardly believable that he could go on living a normal life).  But all in all - a very good Bond adventure.

Edited by SecretAgentFan, 18 August 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[glidrose]

re: Dustin on DMC

 

All good points. And I will admit that the early parts of this book are poor. The plot doesn't hang together - Fleming's usually didn't, but they're not broken-backed the way DMC is. Oh yes, and that nonsense about Poppy and her "twin" sister. Taking a page out of CR'67, I seem to recall that several crucial paragraphs in a scene with the twin sister are out of place. I seem to recall that plot information is mentioned in the scene - as though it's already known to the parties - and then a page or so later, it's mentioned as though for the first time. When I have time - which isn't likely - I'll try and dig out the chapter and page number.

[SecretAgentFan]

Took some time because of work, life and other interests - but I´m back on the Gardner trail, having finished LICENCE RENEWED and FOR SPECIAL SERVICES.  Both had their very strong moments for me, but also some weaker sequences - yeah, well, I should be accustomed to that.

 

Reading ICEBREAKER now, and so far, I love it!

[glidrose]

Could have been a decent Bond-satire, though. It just would have needed an author with the guts to hand in a comedy Bond and stand his ground*.


*Not in the infamous sense that phrase has been used in recently.

Sorry, but I'm having a senior moment. "Stand his ground." What infamous sense?

[Dustin]

Got me there, that's two of us then. Just today reread my comments on this page and this sentence left me clueless. Really, I haven't the foggiest what I meant with it almost two years ago...

[tdalton]

I'm guessing it's a reference to Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that was getting a lot of attention.

[glidrose]

Got me there, that's two of us then. Just today reread my comments on this page and this sentence left me clueless. Really, I haven't the foggiest what I meant with it almost two years ago...

2013 was two years ago? (thinking hard) It's 2015 so, yes, 2013 was two years ago.
 
 

I'm guessing it's a reference to Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law that was getting a lot of attention.

Ah, thanks. That must be it! Bless you young 'uns!