110 replies to this topic

[SecretAgentFan]

But you said it yourself:

 

"It's about choices the characters make actually making sense in their  own minds and this being clear to the audience."

 

For Kincaid and (wounded) M to get away through this difficult terrain in complete darkness would not have made any sense. They had to use their flashlight.

 

IMO, it would have been very unrealistic to have them find the chapel without any light.

[byline]

But you said it yourself:

 

"It's about choices the characters make actually making sense in their  own minds and this being clear to the audience."

 

For Kincaid and (wounded) M to get away through this difficult terrain in complete darkness would not have made any sense. They had to use their flashlight.

 

IMO, it would have been very unrealistic to have them find the chapel without any light.

I agree, absolutely.

[Iceskater101]

I can't wait to watch skyfall with the commentary! I am getting the dvd this weekend.

[Professor Pi]

I appreciate the conclusion more each time I see this film, allowing its metaphoric and cinematic import to outweigh criticisms about its logic (e.g. why do trained mercenaries walk as open targets through a valley?!)  This film reveals something on each repeated viewing. 

I don't think this scene defies logic at all:

 

I think the mercs were sent in for the same reason a hunter/gameskeeper sends in the dogs - to bring the 'game' out of their hiding place.

 

Thanks to this first shootout Silva was able to assertion what was waiting for him at Skyfall - for all he knew there could've been a squad of marines with ground-to-air missiles waiting for him. So by sacrificing the initial strike force he ascertained his own military superiority from the comfort of the heavily armed helicopter.

 

If the mercs hadn't approached so openly, but stealthily instead and gained entry to the building before the ensuing fire fight began it would've been obscured and Silva may not have been any the wiser about his opponents strength had his team been killed inside.

That's a good point, Odd Jobbies.  Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.  I wonder if that occurred to Sam Mendes though ...

[Dustin]

Actually given the setting of Skyfall Lodge there is really no other option than to approach openly. From every direction you have to cover vast open ranges to get at the building, giving a defender ample time to pick off attackers with no more than a hunting rifle. Alternative would have been attempt to approach at night, but a simple night vision device from Amazon could have made that obsolete. The element of surprise - crucial for such operations - would have been lost in any case.

The real mistake of these mercenaries was to not approach faster with cars and to not attack from different directions simultaneously.

Edited by Dustin, 26 February 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[Odd Jobbies]

....Alternative would have been attempt to approach at night, but a simple night vision device from Amazon could have made that obsolete....

Yes, but could Amazon get their Supersaver Delivery  there on time?

 

And even if they did, by the time Bond managed to open the blast proof packaging and found the device among the masses of bubble wrap and enough scrunched paper to print Fleming's entire Bond opus upon, it may have been too late

But you said it yourself:

 

"It's about choices the characters make actually making sense in their  own minds and this being clear to the audience."

 

For Kincaid and (wounded) M to get away through this difficult terrain in complete darkness would not have made any sense. They had to use their flashlight.

 

IMO, it would have been very unrealistic to have them find the chapel without any light.

Yes, as i keep saying, it's not a massive stretch in logic, just a hiccup in otherwise fairly solid verisimilitude that could easily have been avoided with a moment to establish their decision. Then it wouldn't be an issue that has without doubt taken many a viewer uncomfortably out of the action, since i'm certainly not alone here in questioning 'torch-gate'.

 

Honestly, watch the moment again and notice how over the top the torch-beam waving is in the super wide shot, from Silva's POV. It does indeed resemble one half of the 20th Century Fox logo searchlight and is a little laughable.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 26 February 2013 - 09:55 AM.

[SecretAgentFan]

The really debatable thing for me is: why do Bond and M decide to get Silva to "Skyfall" without any help from the authorities? 

 

Because they fear that he would notice and therefore disappear again for some time, waiting for a new moment to strike?

 

Mallory, Q and Tanner must know that Bond and M will be in deep water without any help. Still, they think: oh, well, let them do what they want...

[Odd Jobbies]

The really debatable thing for me is: why do Bond and M decide to get Silva to "Skyfall" without any help from the authorities? 

 

Because they fear that he would notice and therefore disappear again for some time, waiting for a new moment to strike?

 

Mallory, Q and Tanner must know that Bond and M will be in deep water without any help. Still, they think: oh, well, let them do what they want...

Good question. The only answer i can think of is that Bond wanted the element of surprise. Silva's hacking skills might've discovered any communications instructing help for Bond & M in Skyfall (In this movie it seems people can only communicate in ways that Silva can hack - simply telling an MI6 squad to get up there and shadow them obviously didn't occur to anyone!).

 

The only advantage gained is that Silva doesn't know that they know that he knows where they are (if you know what i mean  ). This has sod all to do with logic, or good storytelling and far more to do with the simplified wild-west Rio Bravo / High Noon finale Mendes wanted. And if you can throw common sense to the wind, then at least your reward is indeed a damned fine finale  (but 'IF' is a big word).

 

The story is superb in its ambition - to deconstruct Bond without destroying his essential mystique. IMO they succeed at this, which is to be loudly applauded. The insight this brings to the character via the glances of his damaged psyche and skills in the 'new digs' and then staging the finale at his childhood home is riveting stuff. And the theme of loyalty and betrayal examined via Silva and Bond being the same thing at one point - an agent betrayed by M, but henceforth deciding to react to the that betrayal in different ways is well laid out.

 

But it does seem that the price the movie pays for this is verisimilitude and plausibility in a few places.

 

That's a price i can live with for such an otherwise truly great Bond movie, but perfect it ain't. I expect better from the forthcoming solo Logan effort.

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 26 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[Dustin]

It's taking the heat off London and ( most ) civilians, so that is an advantage in my book, even tough turning into a mobile situation as opposed to a static one. Still, it's bound to bring out Silva with his main resources, so that could be seen as a desirable intermediate objective. The mistake is probably on Silva's side, as he doesn't do the sensible thing and fight another day.

But I've said it before, I believe he really only wanted his substitute mother to say his name...

[larrythefatcat]

I can't wait to watch skyfall with the commentary! I am getting the dvd this weekend.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm quite certain the commentaries are only on the Blu-ray...

[Stainless Steel Teeth INC]

The really debatable thing for me is: why do Bond and M decide to get Silva to "Skyfall" without any help from the authorities? 

 

Because they fear that he would notice and therefore disappear again for some time, waiting for a new moment to strike?

 

Mallory, Q and Tanner must know that Bond and M will be in deep water without any help. Still, they think: oh, well, let them do what they want...

 

As Dustin has just pointed out I also feel it was to take the "heat off London" but more importantly to minimize any further collateral damage. I think back to the image of M standing by the coffins and the guilt she must of felt especially when she realises that it was she who was the primary target.

 

With the further loss of life at the hearing, her decision to allow Bond to get her out of the city 'incognito' was primarily a selfless one buoyed no doubt by the fact that her main protector would be 007. I think any further loss of innocent life was unacceptable to her and she wanted no one else to die in her name.

 

I think it also comes down to the possibility of wanting to deal with this situation on her own terms, in her own time and to no longer be dictated to. She accepts her part in Silva's situation but will not be held to account for it at the expense of others.

[SecretAgentFan]

That makes sense. 

 

Although... her belief in only one guy - even if it is 007 - to fight off Silva and his goons is pretty optimistic. Or suicidal. 

 

Not only that - Mallory, Q and Tanner also seem to think: Oh, well, if 007 can´t do it - we were going to form a new team anyway, right? Sorry, old "M". Collateral, I guess.

 

It does not ruin the film for me at all, by the way.

[Bucky]

The really debatable thing for me is: why do Bond and M decide to get Silva to "Skyfall" without any help from the authorities? 

 

Because they fear that he would notice and therefore disappear again for some time, waiting for a new moment to strike?

 

Mallory, Q and Tanner must know that Bond and M will be in deep water without any help. Still, they think: oh, well, let them do what they want...

 

As Dustin has just pointed out I also feel it was to take the "heat off London" but more importantly to minimize any further collateral damage. I think back to the image of M standing by the coffins and the guilt she must of felt especially when she realises that it was she who was the primary target.

 

With the further loss of life at the hearing, her decision to allow Bond to get her out of the city 'incognito' was primarily a selfless one buoyed no doubt by the fact that her main protector would be 007. I think any further loss of innocent life was unacceptable to her and she wanted no one else to die in her name.

 

I think it also comes down to the possibility of wanting to deal with this situation on her own terms, in her own time and to no longer be dictated to. She accepts her part in Silva's situation but will not be held to account for it at the expense of others.

I agree. Especially since a lot of decisions she had made, such as giving up Silva and then having Eve take the shot at Patrice, were made with the intention of saving more lives. She finally had to make that same decision with her own.

[Odd Jobbies]

 

I think it also comes down to the possibility of wanting to deal with this situation on her own terms, in her own time and to no longer be dictated to. She accepts her part in Silva's situation but will not be held to account for it at the expense of others.

I agree. Especially since a lot of decisions she had made, such as giving up Silva and then having Eve take the shot at Patrice, were made with the intention of saving more lives. She finally had to make that same decision with her own.

But Bond made the decision to 'go back in time' and head north on their own etc, not M.

[Dustin]

But Bond made the decision to 'go back in time' and head north on their own etc, not M.

 

By that time I think M already made her mind up, she didn't want to fight Silva any more. 

[Professor Pi]

Bond also thinks there's a lot more artillery there than there is.  He doesn't know they've sold most all the guns or that there's only two sticks of dynamite. 

 

Also, when she sends Bond off to Silva after failing MI6's tests, she's banking that 007 will be the one who can infiltrate 'the shadows' as it were.  Although I gave some thought to the notion that all the other 00's might be dead ('at least six dead' but there are eight coffins draped in British flags?!)  Though it would be kind of dumb to have them all in a staff meeting at one place at one time.

 

In any case, her sending Bond out when he's not ready calls to mind Fleming's M sending Bond off to investigate Shatterhand in the YOLT novel considering his state of mind after the events of OHMSS.  Yet another layer in Skyfall.

[Odd Jobbies]

But Bond made the decision to 'go back in time' and head north on their own etc, not M.

 

By that time I think M already made her mind up, she didn't want to fight Silva any more. 

I think you're putting words in M's mouth. Perhaps that what you feel happened, but what's in the movie is M finding herself 'kidnapped' by Bond and told by him in no uncertain terms what his plan is. She simply agrees.

[SecretAgentFan]

I only wonder what Mallory, Q and Tanner were thinking about that night ("oh, boy, anyone fancy a cold one? Glad we don´t have to go to Scotland, yeah? Sure hope that 007 cleans everything up - otherwise we´re in pretty big trouble...")

[Bucky]

 

But Bond made the decision to 'go back in time' and head north on their own etc, not M.

 

By that time I think M already made her mind up, she didn't want to fight Silva any more. 

I think you're putting words in M's mouth. Perhaps that what you feel happened, but what's in the movie is M finding herself 'kidnapped' by Bond and told by him in no uncertain terms what his plan is. She simply agrees.

But she did say at that point that "too many people have died because of me"

[Stainless Steel Teeth INC]

And at the end of the day she is still Bond's superior. It might have been his plan but it was her decision to follow it and if she disagreed then all she had to do was order him to do different.

[Odd Jobbies]

Well, read it any way you care to. Fact is Bond was pushing the story and events on from that point - M was a passive character taking a back seat (literally).