Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

No more Super Henchmen?


22 replies to this topic

#1 Golden Claw

Golden Claw

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 219 posts
  • Location:Ind-yeah!

Posted 07 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

I don't know if a thread like this has been made. Anyway, the Craig era has not seen any super-, iconic henchmen as yet. The last one was Zao in DAD. Maybe the super-henchmen belong to the Cubby's Bond era. 

 

What are your opinions on iconic henchmen in the Craig era? Would they work in this day & age? And what kind of henchman would you like to see for a Craig-era Bond villain? S/he would have to belong to the 2010s so a return of Jaws-type or Nick Nack-type chaps seems unlikely.



#2 Matt_13

Matt_13

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5969 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

Funny, this crossed my mind last night. I wouldn't mind a slightly more colorful henchman to compliment an even more colorful primary villain.



#3 Hockey Mask

Hockey Mask

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1027 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:16 PM

I think we are headed there next time.  As realistic as Craig's era seems Silva was a bit fantastical and he isn't a far leap to the next Oddjob.



#4 lechero

lechero

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 278 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

I don't really see what's so iconic about Zao. He was a rather silly henchman, in a more flashy fashion, but iconic?  No. The last great henchman really go back to Dalton's era, don't they? Necros and Dario were some of the best in the series.

Brosnan definitely had some henchman that tried to be iconic, but most end up being either blatant copies of earlier ones (Stamper) or just slightly annoying (Xenia).



#5 tdalton

tdalton

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11680 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:15 AM

I don't really see what's so iconic about Zao. He was a rather silly henchman, in a more flashy fashion, but iconic?  No. The last great henchman really go back to Dalton's era, don't they? Necros and Dario were some of the best in the series.

Brosnan definitely had some henchman that tried to be iconic, but most end up being either blatant copies of earlier ones (Stamper) or just slightly annoying (Xenia).

 

I agree that both Necros and Dario re both great henchmen.  I wouldn't call them iconic, though.  I think that last iconic henchmen that we had was Jaws, and I don't see them going back in that direction again seeing as how they haven't delivered such a henchmen in a couple of decades.



#6 Hockey Mask

Hockey Mask

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1027 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:54 AM

The Dalton henchmen were hooooooooooorrrrribbblllle. So unmemorable.  Zao was definately iconic wether you like it or not.  The dude had diamonds sprayed across his face for heaven's sake.



#7 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:13 AM

The Dalton henchmen were hooooooooooorrrrribbblllle. So unmemorable.  Zao was definately iconic wether you like it or not.  The dude had diamonds sprayed across his face for heaven's sake.

 

So menace, presence, acting ability (Del Toro) etc. count for nothing - all that matters is some daft gimmick?



#8 Hockey Mask

Hockey Mask

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1027 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:29 AM

Milk men aren't menacing.



#9 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:42 AM

Killer milkmen are.



#10 tdalton

tdalton

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11680 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

Killer milkmen are.

 

That they are.  And much more menacing than a guy that has some jewelry embedded in his face.  Neither are iconic, though.



#11 Zographos

Zographos

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 165 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

Zao wasn't a henchman, surely?

 

The idea behind a henchman is to complement the villain, usually adding brawn to the brains.  The dramatic purpose is to give each one a weakness, allowing Bond to outwit the former and overpower the latter.  Of course, there's times where the villain is both intelligent and athletic (Largo), in which case the sidekick is given some other advantage (seduction).

 

But in DAD Zao adds nothing to the team.  Graves and Frost are the physical ones, as well as being clever and manipulative.  Zao only has an idiosyncrasy which, for the first time in a Bond henchman history, is non-threatening (baffling!).  So much like Patrice in Skyfall, I'd say he's more of a plot point than an archtype.  Gets Bond from A to B with a few action scenes along the way.



#12 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

May they rest in Pieces...



#13 Shaun Forever

Shaun Forever

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1067 posts
  • Location:Poole UK

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:39 PM

I think Stamper was the last decent one, a proper hard nut as people round these parts would say.



#14 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:48 PM

The last henchman i liked was Benicio Del Toro in LTK.

 

Great cast, just pedestrian writing and shot like Bond: The TV Series - very flat, unengaging photography.

 

Benicio is an actor i'd love to see return as the main villain.



#15 Matt_13

Matt_13

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5969 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

I didn't get the impression in the film, but in the TND novelization by Raymond Benson, Stamper is described as a masochist. On screen he's fine, but in the book he is a bit more unsettling thanks primarily to the idea that anything Bond hits him with brings him some sort of pleasure. It's an interesting problem for the protagonist to face, and it's a real shame we didn't see it play out properly in the film. I think that trait would have made Stamper a memorable villain, instead of just a reasonably intimidating menace that is quickly forgotten when the lights go up. As for the last great henchman, I'd have to go for Jaws in terms of iconography, and Dario for visceral impact.



#16 AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän

AgenttiNollaNollaSeitsemän

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 493 posts
  • Location:Oulu, Finland

Posted 08 December 2012 - 06:32 PM

Dario was a good character but basicly he was just a thug. Stamper was undedeveloped Red Grant clone and Zao was just stupid. One could argue that Renard was not a main villain but a henchman and if we take him into account he's the last good one.



#17 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:17 PM

I agree with the potential of Renard, but his potential was far from realised. His unique quality was lack from pain sensation, but when was this ever utilised, except for love scene and the one scene with Davidov. This should have been the basis of at least one confrontation with Bond and a major aspect of the finale - just a gimmick in the end.

 

I think i can fathom the reason for this:  I remember reading that this nerve-ending lack-of-pain condition had originally been part of Stamper's character which would have made sense of the masochistic tendency also dropped from the movie (mentioned above) and knife in the leg in the finale that seems to have no effect upon him.

 

I'm guessing this pain gimmick, misguidedly rejected from TND (Stamper), was stuck onto Renard at the last minute to sex him up a little, but too late for the story to be re-writing fully enough to make this as integral to his story in the film as it should've been.

 

If they'd kept this pain gimmick in TND, however, Stamper would've been far more interesting and may have been a henchman contender (if they'd snagged Tony Hopkins away from MI:2 reshoots the movie itself would've been Brosnan's best... Oh wait a minute, Teri Hatcher... Darn it, together with Brosnan their 'love scene' turned from drama into Mills & Boon melodrama . Oh well ).

 

As it stands, Stamper's a pretty lame bunch of muscle in a suit - a cut-out henchman and Renard is his 'Basted child', with Stamper's DNA thrust upon him, but never fully realised.

 

For me Dario is the real thing, a scary piece of work whom i wouldn't like to find myself up tied up with.


Edited by Odd Jobbies, 08 December 2012 - 10:31 PM.


#18 Shaun Forever

Shaun Forever

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1067 posts
  • Location:Poole UK

Posted 09 December 2012 - 09:57 AM

I'd say Dario and Red Grant are the best, also quite liked Hans in 'You Only Live Twice', purely because I like the fight

he was with Bond.

 

 

I always enjoyed the relationship of Dario and Sanchez, were they cousins or something? I don't know if it's ever mentioned, nasty

piece of work as well, who got a well deserved death.



#19 Mr_Wint

Mr_Wint

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2406 posts
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:55 AM

I would say that the last truly great henchman was Gobinda. It looked like he was extremely loyal to his "master". It's amazing what Kabir Bedi can do with barely no dialogue... his staring eyes don't miss a thing.



#20 Stavro

Stavro

    Midshipman

  • Crew
  • 27 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:57 AM

Let me see. We haven't had a Jaws, Oddjob or Tee Hee type henchman in a long time. The henchman would need to be memorable, but at the same time believable - Craig's films are aiming for gritty and realistic.

 

Teeth can be deadly. A knive, strapped to a hook arm prosthesis can be deadly.

Hats are the least lethal thing one could imagine, but a hat-throwing beheading henchman works perfectly in Goldfinger. And I think that's what we need for any future Craig Bond films. Innovation and resourcefulness, working together with grittiness. I cannot think of anything fitting at the moment, but I'm sure John Logan can.



#21 Odd Jobbies

Odd Jobbies

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1573 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:41 PM

Hats are the least lethal thing one could imagine, but a hat-throwing beheading henchman works perfectly in Goldfinger.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there, that's what makes a great henchman - there's something of the Bros. Grimm about the good ones.

 

It's the perversion of something harmless, everyday into something deadly: A bowler hat, a shoe with a spike. Or painting someone gold (a 60s Essex tan); if just a very small patch of skin were left unpainted it wouldn't be deadly. Then there's the deadly briefcase, or the exploding pen made lethal by Q.

 

I love the new gritty approach, but if done well then that very grittiness and realism can make these everyday deathtraps all the more sinister, Grimm and memorable.

 

Just no big guys with metal teeth, thanks.



#22 JohnnyWalker

JohnnyWalker

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 272 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

If the Millenium Trilogy can get away with a giant that doesn't feel pain, new Bond movies can have weirder henchman.



#23 seawolfnyy

seawolfnyy

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4763 posts
  • Location:La Rioja

Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

I think Austin Powers may have killed off the idea of henchman.