Jump to content


This is a read only archive of the old forums
The new CBn forums are located at https://quarterdeck.commanderbond.net/

 
Photo

OHMSS - Very good, but...


30 replies to this topic

#1 B5Erik

B5Erik

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 465 posts
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

Here's my problem with On Her Majesty's Secret Service - and it has nothing to do with George Lazenby...

The editing is terrible. Absolutely awful. The fight scenes jump wildly as they are often just a grouping of punch, kick, and flip shots that are not cohesive. They do not look like part of the same action. There is clearly time missing from the shots. It's almost like a group of still shots of a fight edited together. Almost. The exectution of the editing is terrible - and the use of sped up action almost makes it look cartoonish, which is completely out of place in a more realistic, down to earth movie like OHMSS.

The rear projection on the ski chases is also terrible. Poor quality. There were movies done in the 50's that had better quality rear projection.

Overall, I think OHMSS is a very good movie, but those technical shortcomings are VERY distracting and take away from the movie. It's odd that a film editor and 2nd unit director like Peter Hunt would have allowed for such a mess technically. That may be the style he was going for, but if it was he was misguided as it looks like crap - you can't follow the action very well. It's like the precursor to Quantum Of Solace, another Bond movie hurt by bad editing and hard to follow action sequences.

#2 plankattack

plankattack

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1385 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

The rear projection on the ski chases is also terrible. Poor quality. There were movies done in the 50's that had better quality rear projection.


B5 my friend, you are being overly harsh! ALL the rear-projection in the Bond films has been terrible!!!! From the DN car chase to the cable-car fight in MR, it's almost an EON tradition that the rear projection sucks!

I was half-expecting it to suck in SF so as to be an "homage." But I forgot, we already did that with the ski-surfing in DAD.....

#3 Cody

Cody

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1393 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

I think there's a thread around here with OHMSS reviews from the time when it came out, and it appeared that the editing was an issue with critics of the day. It was cut too fast, they couldn't follow it.

It's like the precursor to Quantum Of Solace


That's the same thought I had reading the reviews, OHMSS was the QOS of '69.

#4 B5Erik

B5Erik

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 465 posts
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:45 PM

I had completely forgotten about the editing when I watched OHMSS on Blu Ray last night. I was shocked by how bad it was and how hard it was to follow the fight scenes. I felt like I was having a QOS flashback or something... ;)

#5 crheath

crheath

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 704 posts

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

I've always had the same problem and it surprises me that other reviews don't mention this. The fight scene in Tracy's hotel room between Bond and the henchman is tough, but a couple of shots are speeded up and make the actors look like they're in a Buster Keaton film. The fight before Bond meets Drago is so sloppily edited that I couldn't figure out what was going on. The fight before Bond goes skiing is cut erratically.

I think this might have to do with the fact that director Peter Hunt was a former editor of the films. He got so used to the watching the shots in the editing room that he felt they needed to get quicker and cut too quickly.

Still, OHMSS is one of my favorites.

#6 seawolfnyy

seawolfnyy

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4763 posts
  • Location:La Rioja

Posted 01 December 2012 - 08:25 PM

I agree that the rear projection is terrible in a lot of the early films. The thing that annoys me far more though, is the style of filming for night scenes when the scene is clearly filmed during the day and a filter is used to darken the frames. It was used in DN, YOLT, OHMSS among others. It is especially annoying because there are scenes in other films that don't use it for night shots such as the gypsy camp scene in FRWL, the Switzerland car chase in GF, the underwater grenade scene in TB.

#7 L4YRCAKE

L4YRCAKE

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 230 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:58 AM

I just re-watched Dr. No and was struck by the first car chase (the one where the guy bites down on the cyanide cigarette) and its (mostly) lack of rear projection, I need to re-watch it to be sure because it happened to come on tv, not studying it, it's a thrilling little chase and they were going pretty fast considering Connery was sprawled across the back seat, clearly without a seatbelt. Pretty sure the film was sped up tho', as usual.

Interesting thought on OHMSS's editing, I kinda liked the fast paced confusion of its action scenes, and I think it works at times for QoS as well, particularly the hotel ambush early on, I think one can make a case for confusion in editing/filming violence, as it's probably that way in real life. Then again I'm curious to watch it with a more critical eye now.

With that said though I was glad to see a return to sweeping cinematography and how cohesively beautiful and well shot and choreographed the action and overall filming was in Skyfall. The scene in Shanghai in the skyscraper in particular in Imax... just flawless, keeps getting more breathtaking in repeated viewing. Hope they stick to that in the future.

#8 quantumofsolace

quantumofsolace

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1563 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:31 AM

"The editing is terrible. Absolutely awful."

the best editing of action in the franchise.


"There is clearly time missing from the shots."

stylistic choice - and a good one

#9 Mr Teddy Bear

Mr Teddy Bear

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1154 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:50 AM

I find the editing in OHMSS completely works as intended.

QoS.. not so much.

#10 B5Erik

B5Erik

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 465 posts
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:25 AM

I find the editing in OHMSS completely works as intended.

QoS.. not so much.

Neither works for me. I'm not big on movies where the director and editor intend that you can't follow the action, but set it up like you're supposed to be able to.

I don't want to feel like I'm actually in the fight. That's a bit more jarring than I need for realism.

#11 tdalton

tdalton

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 11680 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

Agreed on the editing. It is terrible, and is one of the things holding ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE back from being one of the best films in the series. Better editing and a better actor in the role of James Bond would have gone a long way towards making the film one of the all time classics.

#12 SecretAgentFan

SecretAgentFan

    Commander

  • Commanding Officers
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9055 posts
  • Location:Germany

Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:39 PM

Here's my problem with On Her Majesty's Secret Service - and it has nothing to do with George Lazenby...

The editing is terrible. Absolutely awful. The fight scenes jump wildly as they are often just a grouping of punch, kick, and flip shots that are not cohesive. They do not look like part of the same action. There is clearly time missing from the shots. It's almost like a group of still shots of a fight edited together. Almost. The exectution of the editing is terrible - and the use of sped up action almost makes it look cartoonish, which is completely out of place in a more realistic, down to earth movie like OHMSS.

The rear projection on the ski chases is also terrible. Poor quality. There were movies done in the 50's that had better quality rear projection.

Overall, I think OHMSS is a very good movie, but those technical shortcomings are VERY distracting and take away from the movie. It's odd that a film editor and 2nd unit director like Peter Hunt would have allowed for such a mess technically. That may be the style he was going for, but if it was he was misguided as it looks like crap - you can't follow the action very well. It's like the precursor to Quantum Of Solace, another Bond movie hurt by bad editing and hard to follow action sequences.


It seemed to be a good idea at the time.

#13 Hockey Mask

Hockey Mask

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1027 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

When I saw Skyfall with the scene of Bond hanging from the elevator the first thing I thought was "we've come along way from the rear-projection days of Bond.

#14 BarbarasBallGown

BarbarasBallGown

    Cadet

  • Crew
  • 9 posts

Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:57 PM

I actually liked the fight scenes. They were fast and brutal.

#15 Colossus

Colossus

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1490 posts
  • Location:SPECTRE Island

Posted 14 December 2012 - 03:50 AM

I think that Peter Hunt has gotten too overindulgent since he was an editor beforehand, but i have no problem with this though. But i agree he needed to temper it even though he didnt have Terence Young over his shoulder to do just that.



#16 Revelator

Revelator

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 572 posts
  • Location:San Francisco

Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:58 AM

The editing in OHMSS is still the very best in the Bond series--anyone who can't see that should give us the name of their oculist. It passes the first test of editing, which is being able to tell what's going in the shot and for the scene to have spatial coherence. The editing is elliptical, skipping from a fist being launched to it crashing into someone's face while still making clear who's punching who. The sped-up action is sparingly used, and nowhere as comical as the speeding boat in Thunderball. The rear projection is no worse than other Bond films of the same period--tell us what are these mysterious 50s films that supposedly did it better. What Peter Hunt accomplished in OHMSS in the kinetic tradition of Eisenstein, Peckinpah, and Kurosawa--next time you watch OHMSS, have your DVD player pause and go over the fight scenes frame by frame to see just how complex and well-ordered the cutting and its rhythms are.


Edited by Revelator, 18 December 2012 - 01:58 AM.


#17 The Shark

The Shark

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4650 posts
  • Location:London

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:14 PM

The editing in OHMSS is still the very best in the Bond series--anyone who can't see that should give us the name of their oculist. It passes the first test of editing, which is being able to tell what's going in the shot and for the scene to have spatial coherence. The editing is elliptical, skipping from a fist being launched to it crashing into someone's face while still making clear who's punching who. The sped-up action is sparingly used, and nowhere as comical as the speeding boat in Thunderball. The rear projection is no worse than other Bond films of the same period--tell us what are these mysterious 50s films that supposedly did it better. What Peter Hunt accomplished in OHMSS in the kinetic tradition of Eisenstein, Peckinpah, and Kurosawa--next time you watch OHMSS, have your DVD player pause and go over the fight scenes frame by frame to see just how complex and well-ordered the cutting and its rhythms are.


QFFT.

#18 Yellow Pinky

Yellow Pinky

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 338 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA - USA

Posted 18 December 2012 - 02:16 PM

The editing in OHMSS is still the very best in the Bond series--anyone who can't see that should give us the name of their oculist. It passes the first test of editing, which is being able to tell what's going in the shot and for the scene to have spatial coherence. The editing is elliptical, skipping from a fist being launched to it crashing into someone's face while still making clear who's punching who. The sped-up action is sparingly used, and nowhere as comical as the speeding boat in Thunderball. The rear projection is no worse than other Bond films of the same period--tell us what are these mysterious 50s films that supposedly did it better. What Peter Hunt accomplished in OHMSS in the kinetic tradition of Eisenstein, Peckinpah, and Kurosawa--next time you watch OHMSS, have your DVD player pause and go over the fight scenes frame by frame to see just how complex and well-ordered the cutting and its rhythms are.


QFFT.

 

I think the editing in OHMSS, especially in the fight scenes, is brilliant and years ahead of its time.  The drop frame technique used by Peter Hunt is a very deliberate stylistic choice.  The immediacy of those scenes and the immersive, jumbled brutality of them is genius in my book.



#19 Sherlock

Sherlock

    Cadet

  • Crew
  • 12 posts
  • Location:221B Baker St.

Posted 18 December 2012 - 06:40 PM

Regardless, it's still a better movie than YOLT and DAF.



#20 Trevelyan 006

Trevelyan 006

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 820 posts
  • Location:Antenna Cradle

Posted 20 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

Very good, but

 

Very good.



#21 delfloria

delfloria

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 675 posts

Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

The editing...... ahead of it's time. OHMSS has it's fault but is still a masterpiece.



#22 Major Tallon

Major Tallon

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 2107 posts
  • Location:Mid-USA

Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:08 AM

The editing...... ahead of it's time. OHMSS has it's fault but is still a masterpiece.

My sentiments exactly.



#23 Aisforauric

Aisforauric

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 108 posts
  • Location:UK

Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:41 PM

 

The editing...... ahead of it's time. OHMSS has it's fault but is still a masterpiece.

My sentiments exactly.

 

Ditto



#24 Nicolas Suszczyk

Nicolas Suszczyk

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3735 posts
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

I don't see the editing as a problem, in fact, I liked it, and I also consider OHMSS as my third favourite Bond film after GoldenEye and (go on, punch me) TND.

 

The only touble I found is the lack of action during the middle (Bond in Piz Gloria as Sir Hilary, etc.), unlike SF who lasts 2hr 20min too and is a lot more entertaining.



#25 Mallory

Mallory

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 161 posts
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

I was able to follow the editing a lot better than Quantum of Solace.

 

I am probably the only person who likes the Hilly scenes. A ton of eye candy and they don't last as long. Then that epic ski chase, still the best skii chase in the series. No matter what went on between George and Diana off screen they had great on screen chemistry. 

 

Like I said, I had no problem with the editing, all I could say is that I couldn't go back and watch YOLT and take the fight scenes seriously. I know Connery can kick ass but Lazenby's punches look like they will wake you in the morning. Even I was hurting watching.



#26 seawolfnyy

seawolfnyy

    Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4763 posts
  • Location:La Rioja

Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:14 PM

I like the Hilly scenes, I just can't stand the dubbing. I know Lazenby had trouble with the Scottish accent, but that dubbing was awful.



#27 Mallory

Mallory

    Sub-Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • Pip
  • 161 posts
  • Location:Connecticut

Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:22 AM

Lazenby had to learn the English accent, having him do the Scottish accent would have been pushing it.



#28 David_M

David_M

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1064 posts
  • Location:Richmond VA

Posted 26 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

I'd compare the editing not so much to QoS, which was merely incompetent, as to DAD, which is merely overly stylized and affected. With both OHMSS and DAD, I never have trouble following the action, but I often find the editing has a "hey, watch what I can do" quality that draws attention to itself, which you'd think would be a no-no. In the case of OHMSS, though, I would argue it works, as the whole film, from Laz's presence to Barry's experimental score to the wedding to the mere fact that it doesn't "fit" after YOLT, has a certain quirky "otherness" to it, and the editing style -- which is also unique to this one entry -- reinforces that. One reason this film always holds my attention is that it seems to have dropped into our world from some parallel universe where the series played out very differently.

#29 Walecs

Walecs

    Lieutenant

  • Crew
  • PipPip
  • 789 posts
  • Location:Italy

Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

I like Hillie scenes as well, and, I watched the whole movie dubbed in my language, so English voice is not a problem for me :)



#30 Professor Pi

Professor Pi

    Lt. Commander

  • Veterans
  • PipPipPip
  • 1430 posts

Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

I sort of remember reading in one of the Bond behind the scenes books that the producers purposely edited OHMSS in a different style to reinforce Lazenby's physicality.  They wanted the viewer to be in the fight, feel the punches, etc. hence, all the added sound effects as well. 

 

Compare it to the fight on the docks in YOLT where each bad guy Bond hits once passes out, slows his running, thus allowing Bond's escape as shot aerially to a sweeping Barry theme score, completely keeping the viewer far from the fight scenes.

 

I think there's something to David_M's comments about "the parallel universe ... quirky 'otherness'" of the film.  The janitor humming the Goldfinger theme reinforces this notion, along with the YOLT-OHMSS-DAF timeline not seeming linear. Each film tends to ignore the other (Blofeld not recognizing Bond in OHMSS after meeting him, DAF opening in Japan, casting Charles Gray as two different characters in YOLT and DAF, recasting Blofeld each time, etc.)

 

The editing quirk I notice the most is the amount of time that passes between the bomb timer striking zero and and explosion of Piz Gloria, it's like 6 or 7 seconds.

 

Yet I still enjoy the film very much.