137 replies to this topic

[Sean Moore]

I assume Bond fans would be insulted by what the producers thought of them by this presentation. By the end of the title sequence we have one 00 agent slumped in a chair in Instanbul dying and one 00 agent assumed dead by fratricide from a dithering field agent who has her every movement dictated by a command center. Apparently, there was no search for his whereabouts after the incident. Then we are told later in the film, the 00 section was around "to fight wars in the shadows". Heaven help the empire.

Contrast this with Dalton-Bond 25 years ago in The Living Daylights where Bond is relatively alone, no earpiece, using the skill and knowledge entrusted to him as 00 agent in Bratislava, in control of his situation, making split seconds decisions on matters of life and death, right or wrong and without regret.

 

I understand your point and agree with it.

 

I've seen SLYFALL once and thought about it a lot. I like it and I don't like it for many of the reasons already mentioned in this "hot" thread.

 

I need to see it one more time, to take it all in.

 

My initial observations, written for those who have already seen the film, are posted right here on CBn:

 

http://debrief.comma...s/#entry1242932

 

I might change my mind and find new points to make after I see it again.

 

I always go to a new Bond film willing to like it, wanting to be surprised, and hoping for the best, but my loyalty to the franchise has been sorely tested in the 21st century.

 

 

OOPS. I'VE BEEN MOVED TO POST #350 HERE:

 

http://debrief.comma...-thread/page-12

Edited by Sean Moore, 17 December 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[supernova]

I did notice that the man getting torn apart by 3 Komodo Dragons made surprisingly little noise as he was being munched. Have always appreciated that James Bond movies are much less into gore and nasty than other action movies.

[__7]

I genuinely don"t understand 99.9% of the criticisms of SF.  It was an outstanding film start to finish.  The only thing I don't understand is how someone survives munching down on a cyanide pill... but what it did to Silva's face was really cool and a really cool moment in the film.  So I don't even care.

[sharpshooter]

The only thing I don't understand is how someone survives munching down on a cyanide pill... but what it did to Silva's face was really cool and a really cool moment in the film.  So I don't even care.

Luck of the devil.

[Chief of SIS]

I genuinely don"t understand 99.9% of the criticisms of SF.  It was an outstanding film start to finish.  The only thing I don't understand is how someone survives munching down on a cyanide pill... but what it did to Silva's face was really cool and a really cool moment in the film.  So I don't even care.

 

 

Well...did a quick search and fact seems that is very lethal. Quote around 97% percent of the time. I won't throw a link in because I was slightly shocked where I found the data and that such a site existed. Anyways, someone has to be in that 3% I guess.

[The Shark]

Yeah, I can't find anything about Hydrogen Cyanide being corrosive. Q Branch must have accidentally filled the capsule with a strong acid.

[Bucky]

Silva surviving the cyanide kind of reminded me of Dr. No and how he survived when he was left for dead by the Tongs when they shot him because his heart was on the right side of his body.

Edited by Bucky, 18 December 2012 - 01:38 PM.

[__7]

Huh, that's really interesting!  I had no idea 3% of all the people who take cynide survive.  I wonder if the writers looked that up too before they wrote it.  In any event, I totally buy the scene now.  Therfore, the whole film was outstanding.  No criticisms, best Bond film thus far.

[Dustin]

It may not have been these numbers that lead to Silva's particular backstory. There are some most ghastly accounts of cases - mainly from WWII - in which it took the individuals quite long, hours even to die. The idea for SKYFALL probably was developed from there with the proposition to have modern emergency medicine and paramedics at the ready it must be possible to rescue a patient, although at a price.

[bill007]

007 began anew with CASINO ROYALE.  It was our peek at James Bond's first outing as a double-00.

 

Along come QUANTUM OF SOLACE.  Picking up immediately after CR, James Bond learns to trust no one, gets on with the job, and eventually, a taste of solace in dealing with the man who motivated his gal to turn as a double.

 

And, finally, SKYFALL.  Oddly titled, but worked into the storyline.  Nonetheless, James Bond matures into a veteran of the world which belies evil vs good.

 

James Bond will return.

 

Yes, he will.  I passed him on to my son in the '90's.  Perhaps, my grandson in the not-to-distant future.

 

But, the ending of SF, with 007 on the roof, standing tall with the Union Jack flowing in the breeze, looking over the rooftops.......

 

Makes me wish us yanks had a hero like that.

[R. Dittmar]

Yeah, I can't find anything about Hydrogen Cyanide being corrosive. Q Branch must have accidentally filled the capsule with a strong acid.

 

I'm highly dubious about HCN being corrosive too.  It used to be called prussic acid in solution and I think this is standard Hollywood-think that anything called an acid must automatically be capable of dissolving the flesh off your bones on contact.  This even though a nice solution of acetic acid makes a lovely salad dressing when mixed with oil and a nice solution of carbonic acid and simple syrup makes for a refreshing drink.

[Sigma7]

Watched SF for the 3rd time now, and as much as it has alot going for it ( good cast, scenic photography, clever dialogue...etc) it absolutely has no "WOW" factor for me, it felt like a good movie, but it was no "bond" movie. CR is still DC's best outing as Bond.

[Hockey Mask]

I thought the pretitle sequence, Silva, Silva's island and the Aston Martin were all "wow" moments worthy of a Bond movie..

[archer1949]

I quite liked it. I like  it when they tweak the formula (even flawed attempts like TWINE) and this one was so different, it really appealed to me.

Plus, they had the best villain they have had in years. Decades, even.

[Belmont]

Situation Analysis: Fantastic.

 

I really hope they keep Sam Mendes on for one more to infuse more retro-Bond goodness, because I love the balancing act that he's achieved with Skyfall. It's different enough that it feels like a progression from DC's previous Bond films, but it also clearly celebrates the series' history and legacy. 

[SirCliff]

Without seeming rude, I've been genuinely surprised by the overall positive reception from not just the critics but most Bond fans aswell.  

Without reiterating points people have already made for me it didnt feel like a Bond movie.  

I could accept Skyfall more if we hadnt already had Casino Royale.  CR gave us a re-boot, we had a Bond who makes mistakes and is still learning and by the end (for me) the gunbarrell suggested Bond is now Bond, then QoS did the same with the gunbarrell at the end he isnt Bond yet but he has put Vesper behind him and is now Bond...and Skyfall seems to reboot the reboot.  

I think part of my problem is that Im 26, i grew up with the Brosnan movies and although I despise the excess of DAD, I adore CR and QoS... and expect elements of the Bond formula why do you want to see a bond movie anyway?

And whereas QoS has the criticism (unjustly) that there is no plot or it didnt make sense, when in fact the idea of governments backing terrorists and dodggy regimes is an interesting avenue.  This is never raised in Skyfall, the plot is wafer thin and is a basic revenge story.  I enjoy the Dark Knight but i dont expect it replicated in a Bond movie....

The Good -
Having said that the visuals were spectacular and I cant fault them,
Bardem was fantastic and wasted due to his very late entrance and him not getting enough screen time,
Craig was solid in his acting but he is looking old and haggered, whether deliberate or not im not sure.  

 

We are ashamed of making bond movies it seems, CR shows you can make an excellent film that IS a bond movie.  with the success of this film no doubt the producers will continue with this approach for future instalments...  RIP Bond.  


That's my 2 cents anyway.  : )

[Iceskater101]

Really? I disagree with you. I think the plot is much better than Quantum of Solace and it took me several watches to understand the plot of Quantum because it wasn't explained very well. Skyfall is one of the easiest bond movies to understand because it's pretty simple. If anything that's a good thing because it might get more people interested in this franchise so I am glad that they did that. It's all a difference of opinion but I rather enjoyed Skyfall a lot.

[tdalton]

Without seeming rude, I've been genuinely surprised by the overall positive reception from not just the critics but most Bond fans aswell.  

Without reiterating points people have already made for me it didnt feel like a Bond movie.  

I could accept Skyfall more if we hadnt already had Casino Royale.  CR gave us a re-boot, we had a Bond who makes mistakes and is still learning and by the end (for me) the gunbarrell suggested Bond is now Bond, then QoS did the same with the gunbarrell at the end he isnt Bond yet but he has put Vesper behind him and is now Bond...and Skyfall seems to reboot the reboot.  

I think part of my problem is that Im 26, i grew up with the Brosnan movies and although I despise the excess of DAD, I adore CR and QoS... and expect elements of the Bond formula why do you want to see a bond movie anyway?

And whereas QoS has the criticism (unjustly) that there is no plot or it didnt make sense, when in fact the idea of governments backing terrorists and dodggy regimes is an interesting avenue.  This is never raised in Skyfall, the plot is wafer thin and is a basic revenge story.  I enjoy the Dark Knight but i dont expect it replicated in a Bond movie....

The Good -
Having said that the visuals were spectacular and I cant fault them,
Bardem was fantastic and wasted due to his very late entrance and him not getting enough screen time,
Craig was solid in his acting but he is looking old and haggered, whether deliberate or not im not sure.  

 

We are ashamed of making bond movies it seems, CR shows you can make an excellent film that IS a bond movie.  with the success of this film no doubt the producers will continue with this approach for future instalments...  RIP Bond.  


That's my 2 cents anyway.  : )

 

 

I agree with your disappointment, although I disagree with why Skyfall is such a disappointing Bond film.  If anything, I think that Skyfall is a bit too proud in announcing that it's a Bond film.  I certainly don't see it as being ashamed to be one, quite the opposite in fact.  The entire film is, more or less, a commercial for the checklist, with them spending so much time integrating Q into the proceedings and actually having Moneypenny as the main Bond girl.  Between that, all the nods to the past, the gadget-laden Aston Martin, a physically deformed villain who wants revenge, the clear Mallory/Bernard Lee homages, this is a Bond film that screams "Bond film" more than any of the more recent films, even going back to Brosnan's tenure.

 

The problems with Skyfall revolve around its plot.  It's so paper thin (as well as something we've seen before in the franchise, even during Dench's tenure as M no less) and full of plot holes and relies so heavily on convenience and coincidence that it's hard to find any reason to become invested in it.  Despite having perhaps the greatest entrance of any Bond villain (and one of the great cinematic villain entrances ever, IMO), Silva turns into a poor man's Alec Trevelyan from there on out.  Trevelyan was more menacing than Silva could have ever hoped to have been, and the idea that Silva could have ever been an agent on Bond's level is laughable to the point of being absurd.  If anything, we should be looking at him as a sympathetic figure rather than the villain, given that M's incompetence and lack of loyalty (hypocritical of her, given the lectures to Bond over the past two films) is partially to blame for his problems.

[Dustin]

I agree with your disappointment, although I disagree with why Skyfall is such a disappointing Bond film.  If anything, I think that Skyfall is a bit too proud in announcing that it's a Bond film.  I certainly don't see it as being ashamed to be one, quite the opposite in fact.  The entire film is, more or less, a commercial for the checklist, with them spending so much time integrating Q into the proceedings and actually having Moneypenny as the main Bond girl.  Between that, all the nods to the past, the gadget-laden Aston Martin, a physically deformed villain who wants revenge, the clear Mallory/Bernard Lee homages, this is a Bond film that screams "Bond film" more than any of the more recent films, even going back to Brosnan's tenure.

 

The problems with Skyfall revolve around its plot.  It's so paper thin (as well as something we've seen before in the franchise, even during Dench's tenure as M no less) and full of plot holes and relies so heavily on convenience and coincidence that it's hard to find any reason to become invested in it.  Despite having perhaps the greatest entrance of any Bond villain (and one of the great cinematic villain entrances ever, IMO), Silva turns into a poor man's Alec Trevelyan from there on out.  Trevelyan was more menacing than Silva could have ever hoped to have been, and the idea that Silva could have ever been an agent on Bond's level is laughable to the point of being absurd.  If anything, we should be looking at him as a sympathetic figure rather than the villain, given that M's incompetence and lack of loyalty (hypocritical of her, given the lectures to Bond over the past two films) is partially to blame for his problems.

 

 

 

It's funny that I agree with most everything in your first paragraph, and quite a lot in the second one, yet I come to completely different conclusions. I found Trevelyan the underdeveloped character lacking motivation and - to some extent - potential to convince me of his threatening qualities. Silva on the other hand is Bond 0.1, not in his function as 00 agent - though we do not know what exactly makes a 00 in Eon's Bond-verse; it could just as well be Silva accomplished his first two kills with a click of the computer mouse - but in his importance for the SIS and M (then not head of service) at a given time and place in history. I find nothing absurd in that notion - chances are a lot of very important people in the intelligence business and the war of lies are even more freaked out than Silva is depicted as in SF - and we have to give him credit for checking out of the entire mess the hard way and only learning afterwards how hard that really is. Of course the guy doesn't show up on any kind of reality-Richter scale, he went right through the roof of that and arrived on the other side. And the only thing that kept him company was the thought of his "mommy".

 

No, he's not bound for large-scale villainy. But that's what makes him even more of a threat for the system, one of their discarded tools sets his sights on his own former comrades and the authority figure that welded him into the weapon he was to become on their behalf. Silva's threatening potential lies in that he exposes the ways of the service and especially its head. I'd say Silva is easily ten times as dangerous as any of Bond's former adversaries. His very existence questions Bond's place in the scheme of things and his loyalty towards it.          

[tdalton]

 

 

No, he's not bound for large-scale villainy. But that's what makes him even more of a threat for the system, one of their discarded tools sets his sights on his own former comrades and the authority figure that welded him into the weapon he was to become on their behalf. Silva's threatening potential lies in that he exposes the ways of the service and especially its head. I'd say Silva is easily ten times as dangerous as any of Bond's former adversaries. His very existence questions Bond's place in the scheme of things and his loyalty towards it.          

 

 

All of that may be true, but it doesn't actually show up on the screen.  Silva is seen as being dangerous mostly in his ability to anticipate coincidences 

 

The real danger in Skyfall comes from the idiocy of putting every agent's name on a single file and hard drive that could easily be compromised.  I mean, really, they put the identity of every NATO operative on a hard drive in a laptop in an apartment building in Turkey?  Say what you want about Tom Cruise and his Mission: Impossible films, but at least he had to go to great lengths to get the NOC List, going so far as to physically break into the CIA.  Silva, more specifically Patrice, just had to go knock on a door in Turkey and kill a couple of inept agents to retrieve the NOC List.  The whole film could have been completely avoided at several turns, most notably by not having a NOC List on a computer drive in Turkey, but even after that, all Mallory had to do was remove her from her job and none of the proceedings would have happened, and Silva would have had a much easier time accomplishing his goal of killing M, which he ultimately accomplished anyway.

[Dustin]

 

... and Silva would have had a much easier time accomplishing his goal of killing M, which he ultimately accomplished anyway.

 

 

I'm not sure that really was his goal. I like to think all he wanted was her calling him by his name.

 

But of course you are right, having all that sensitive information on one single device, outside a Fort-Knox-like compound is utter lunacy by any standards of operative security. Meaning it's probably standard operating procedure...

[tdalton]

 

 

... and Silva would have had a much easier time accomplishing his goal of killing M, which he ultimately accomplished anyway.

 

 

But of course you are right, having all that sensitive information on one single device, outside a Fort-Knox-like compound is utter lunacy by any standards of operative security. Meaning it's probably standard operating procedure...

 

 

Probably true, although I would think that if they were that careless with such information that something like what we saw in the film would have already happened. 

[Dustin]

 

 

 

... and Silva would have had a much easier time accomplishing his goal of killing M, which he ultimately accomplished anyway.

 

 

But of course you are right, having all that sensitive information on one single device, outside a Fort-Knox-like compound is utter lunacy by any standards of operative security. Meaning it's probably standard operating procedure...

 

 

Probably true, although I would think that if they were that careless with such information that something like what we saw in the film would have already happened. 

 

 

 

I don't want to hijack this thread but there is currently a young guy, formerly proud holder of a Mcjob position with the armed forces of the United States, who had access to information of a similarly serious - tough not as simplistically described - nature. He didn't even have to go past any 00 agents, his worst weapon in this stunt was Outlook Express. Hm... 

[tdalton]

Then perhaps Skyfall's lasting achievement will be that it highlights the (rather obvious) fact that such sensitive data needs to be as secure as possible.  Maybe members of the US and UK governments have seen this and saw how stupid it was to leave such a list out in the open like that and then did something about it.  Probably wishful thinking, but it would be nice to know that Skyfall didn't end up being a complete waste of 2.5 hours.

[SirCliff]

Skipping over the fact that an important piece of data was left in a apartment in Turkey (which could have possibly been a sting gone wrong to catch Patrice???)  The fact that every agent is compromised and published on youtube yet Mi6 doesnt pull out any of the agents from their missions is ridiculous.  

Do we also assume that Silva has been waiting since 1997 (Hong Kong hand over) for revenge but has done nothing about it?  

Any what even happened to the disk in the end?  Is it retrieved with Silva's capture?  The film didnt seem interested in even tying up it's own plot.  

 

There in lies my main problem with the film there is no importance placed on the plot.  e.g. What was happening with the shooting of an art dealer in Shanghai? All of these threads I expected to come together into something larger but he just wanted to get to M...the end.

Maybe Ill soften to the film watching it in my own home on dvd but i really dont understand the hype at the moment.  Kinda feel like im the only person that didnt like it aswell.

[FOX MULDER]

There in lies my main problem with the film there is no importance placed on the plot.  e.g. What was happening with the shooting of an art dealer in Shanghai? 

 

Who cares? It's irrelevant to the plot. The story involves Bond, M, and Silva. That's it.

 

Skyfall is a very personal story and everything that comes outside this personal zone - the disc, the art dealer, etc - is quickly discarded. This keeps the focus sharp and stops the film becoming a rambling mess. I think its simplicity is a strength. 

[tdalton]

Discarding the disc is a mistake, though, and by doing so they pull out an already (very) shaky foundation from under the film leaving it nothing to stand on.  The disc and the aftermath of its theft paint every character in such a poor light that it's impossible to care about their story.  Dench's unwillingness to pull her agents from the field makes her look like a monster (she utters a throwaway line about pulling them out, but never follows through on it and it's clear that she never relayed that order to her agents, who begin dying).  Silva is probably the most sympathetic of the characters, but once he begins terrorizing the London underground, he throws that goodwill away, as though the screenwriters realized up until that point that he was quite villainous enough to outdo the likes of M and put in a random attack that does nothing for the plot and relies on coincidence rather than actual planning.  Bond looks no better for protecting the film's actual villain throughout the film, and he looks disinterested throughout the entire proceedings, making one wonder why he didn't just stay "dead".

[Dustin]

I must concede not bringing in the compromised agents - and it's a bit nebulous, are they NATO? Western agents or just SIS? Is SIS perhaps now handling the entire spying for all Western nations? Have they completely outsourced intelligence work to London? - is nothing short of utter lunacy. Even if the hard drive had been recovered - how could SIS (or whoever) be sure none of the identities was compromised in the meantime? And picked up one by one later on, or fed misintelligence? No, the only sensible option would have been to bring the people in immediately and find them nice desk jobs.

[tdalton]

If I remember correctly, I think Mallory referred to them being NATO agents during his attempt to fire M just after the title sequence.

[lechero]

Then perhaps Skyfall's lasting achievement will be that it highlights the (rather obvious) fact that such sensitive data needs to be as secure as possible.  Maybe members of the US and UK governments have seen this and saw how stupid it was to leave such a list out in the open like that and then did something about it.  Probably wishful thinking, but it would be nice to know that Skyfall didn't end up being a complete waste of 2.5 hours.

 

Wow, you really do hate this film..