24 replies to this topic

[Platapus94]

Does anyone know how one would come about the right to publish a bond book? I doubt that it is possible, unless approached, but I'm wondering if the continuation Bond authors, Gardner, Higson etc. we're approached for the job or pitched themselves, anyone know?

[Dustin]

They were approached, though one might argue Benson's application technically was his JAMES BOND BEDSIDE COMPANION.

That said I'm fairly sure IFP and Eon both would have to have a permanent lease on huge storehouses around the world, to keep all the unsolicited material the get each day. As it is they apparently send back such efforts unopened to their originators to avoid legal infringement matters. So there is most likely zero chance to have anything Bond related sent to them and get their approval after the fact.

[Platapus94]

Shame, I've read some really good Bond fan fiction, it'd be nice to write my own story, but thanks for the information

[JCRendle]

I know, many will disagree!

I disagree! What are authorised continuation novels? Fan fiction written by well known authors with permission form Glidrose/Ian Fleming Publications - You can get some fantastic fan fiction that are just as good or better than Markham, Pearson, Wood, Gardner, Benson, Faulks, Deaver or Higson - they can bring up some interesting ideas, are written by those who love Bond - can be written in the style of literary Bond or cinematic Bond. Why are they any less because the author isn't well known?

[glidrose]

James Bond fan fiction has no authority whatever - I am opposed to its existence and only authorised authors should be read. My two cents...though, I know, many will disagree!

I agree. What little fan fiction I've read - some of it praised on these boards - is dire.

I disagree! What are authorised continuation novels? Fan fiction written by well known authors with permission form Glidrose/Ian Fleming Publications - You can get some fantastic fan fiction that are just as good or better than Markham, Pearson, Wood, Gardner, Benson, Faulks, Deaver or Higson - they can bring up some interesting ideas, are written by those who love Bond - can be written in the style of literary Bond or cinematic Bond. Why are they any less because the author isn't well known?

Er, copyright infringement for starters.

[JCRendle]

I disagree! What are authorised continuation novels? Fan fiction written by well known authors with permission form Glidrose/Ian Fleming Publications - You can get some fantastic fan fiction that are just as good or better than Markham, Pearson, Wood, Gardner, Benson, Faulks, Deaver or Higson - they can bring up some interesting ideas, are written by those who love Bond - can be written in the style of literary Bond or cinematic Bond. Why are they any less because the author isn't well known?

Er, copyright infringement for starters.

Yes, technically you can call it copyright infringement - though you could also argue that if no money is made from the fanfiction that it could come under fair use. Just because IFP or EON have the right to sue a fanfiction author, it doesn't effect my argument that you quoted. If you have a fantastic piece of fanfiction that is well written, brings up interesting ideas etc - if they are not making any money from the fiction, which would be illegal - why should their efforts be any less?

[AMC Hornet]

So...

That 30 minute, 8mm film my friends and I made of Octopussy back in 1974 - when were in our teens - has just as much right to be considered canonical as anything produced by Eon or IFP?

It's the cinematic equivalent of fanfiction - we even have a gunbarrel sequence at the beginning, just like an Eon film! The music was by John Barry and George Martin, and the dialogue contained 'homages' to previous films.

Here we've been sitting on this gold mine all along. I'll have to contact Sony pictures and see about getting it distributed, along with my blockbuster novel 'Moonraker 2: The Return of Drax."

I'm gonna be rich, baby!

[JCRendle]

AMC Hornet, I know your post was tongue-in-cheek, but I'll bite anyway

So...

That 30 minute, 8mm film my friends and I made of Octopussy back in 1974 - when were in our teens - has just as much right to be considered canonical as anything produced by Eon or IFP?

Where did I say fanfiction should be considered canonical?

It's the cinematic equivalent of fanfiction - we even have a gunbarrel sequence at the beginning, just like an Eon film! The music was by John Barry and George Martin, and the dialogue contained 'homages' to previous films.

Exactly. It's a type of fanfiction - not canonical but it still has every right to be judged on it's quality, and not passed off just because it's unofficial.

Here we've been sitting on this gold mine all along. I'll have to contact Sony pictures and see about getting it distributed, along with my blockbuster novel 'Moonraker 2: The Return of Drax."

I'm gonna be rich, baby!

Did you miss the part of my post that specifically mentioned the making of money?

The point I'm making is that fanfiction and fan made projects like fan films, fan art (posters etc.) should not be passed off just because they're not official canon.

I was disagreeing with this:-

I am opposed to its existence and only authorised authors should be read.

I was not saying that the best written fanfiction should be considered canon and be sold for millions!

[stromberg]

Apart from copyright infringement, the problem with all sorts of fan fiction is, that - no matter of what quality it is - I can be seen (depending on one's point of view) as diminishing the original or properly licensed and authorized canonical work by Fleming or any other commissioned Bond writer. And I know that "they" do see it exactly that way.

[glidrose]

Apart from copyright infringement, the problem with all sorts of fan fiction is, that - no matter of what quality it is - I can be seen (depending on one's point of view) as diminishing the original or properly licensed and authorized canonical work by Fleming or any other commissioned Bond writer. And I know that "they" do see it exactly that way.

Exactly.

Yes, technically you can call it copyright infringement - though you could also argue that if no money is made from the fanfiction that it could come under fair use.

But won't. Ask any IP lawyer. It's still copyright infringement even when no money changes hands. Fair use it is not.

Just because IFP or EON have the right to sue a fanfiction author, it doesn't effect my argument that you quoted. If you have a fantastic piece of fanfiction that is well written, brings up interesting ideas etc - if they are not making any money from the fiction, which would be illegal - why should their efforts be any less?

The problem is that fanfiction isn't well written. For many of us the Benson novels were just that: fan-fiction. I wouldn't even call half of Gardner's output fan-fiction since it was clear he wasn't a fan. Some might use the ugly phrase hack-work. On the other hand I have no trouble accepting the Harvard Lampoon's "Alligator" or Will Self's "License to Hug" (but only up to a point) since both works were by professional authors. Not sure where I stand on the Hatfield book since it's been so many years since I've read it.

For me it's not so much copyright infringement, even though I seem to have been the first person to have raised that issue, but how lousy fan-fiction is, and therefore degrading and demeaning to the actual franchise. If I were IFP - which I am not despite my moniker - I'd put a stop to all fan-fiction. Attention all wannabe writers: create your own characters, try your hand at really getting puplished. And for the record... how many fan-fic writers do eventually become published fiction writers?

I guess that's what it comes down to. My contempt for people who write fan fiction and their (cough) "literary" (cough) efforts.

[Trevelyan 006]

Fan fiction is nothing to go to the bank with but, it is damn fun to experiment in...
I've written some myself, this does not make me any less of a writer however.


Though I admit, writing fan fiction should be considered more of a hobby, than a skill.

[Iceskater101]

I agree, I consider it as a hobby. It is a skill if you can create something new, that is original.

[Dustin]

For me it's not so much copyright infringement, even though I seem to have been the first person to have raised that issue, but how lousy fan-fiction is, and therefore degrading and demeaning to the actual franchise. If I were IFP - which I am not despite my moniker - I'd put a stop to all fan-fiction. Attention all wannabe writers: create your own characters, try your hand at really getting puplished. And for the record... how many fan-fic writers do eventually become published fiction writers?

I guess that's what it comes down to. My contempt for people who write fan fiction and their (cough) "literary" (cough) efforts.

Problematic approach. As to why - I'm going to elaborate on this soon, just haven't got the time to do so right now. I'd merely like to put another perspective on this into consideration.

Edited by Dustin, 20 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[MajorB]

Glidrose, I can't say I get your argument. If it's true fanfic--unofficial, uncopyrighted, noncommercial, done for fun with no pretense of anything else--then I'm hard-pressed to understand how it tarnishes the official product. To me, it's the literary equivalent of AMC Hornet's 30-minute 8mm version of Octopussy. On a practical level I see it as fairly harmless. I say this as someone who works in publishing and has a fierce belief in copyright protection. I don't think of it as publication in the usual sense. If I write an amateurish sequel to, let's say, Umberto Eco's Name of the Rose and show it to some friends, have I harmed Eco's reputation or commercial prospects? I can understand your distaste for the poor quality of some/most fanfic, but to say that it somehow harms the franchise or the rights holders seems to me to be a stretch. Unless I'm missing some underlying principle.

[glidrose]

Glidrose, I can't say I get your argument. If it's true fanfic--unofficial, uncopyrighted, noncommercial, done for fun with no pretense of anything else--then I'm hard-pressed to understand how it tarnishes the official product. To me, it's the literary equivalent of AMC Hornet's 30-minute 8mm version of Octopussy. On a practical level I see it as fairly harmless. I say this as someone who works in publishing and has a fierce belief in copyright protection. I don't think of it as publication in the usual sense. If I write an amateurish sequel to, let's say, Umberto Eco's Name of the Rose and show it to some friends, have I harmed Eco's reputation or commercial prospects? I can understand your distaste for the poor quality of some/most fanfic, but to say that it somehow harms the franchise or the rights holders seems to me to be a stretch. Unless I'm missing some underlying principle.

People *may* be less likely to buy the official product if unofficial product is available. And if people don't like the unofficial product they may be less likely to spend time and money on the official product. Look at it this way, if NSNA hadn't been made - and yes, I know it's not fan-fiction let alone anything resembling it - how much better may Octopussy have done in the international market? It did well in the domestic American market, but not so well internationally.

I'm actually looking forward to reading Dustin's rebuttal. Should make interesting reading. His stuff nearly always is. Even when I don't agree with him I find him an interesting read, which I guess is the best compliment one can pay. Ditto Secret Agent Fan.

[MkB]

People *may* be less likely to buy the official product if unofficial product is available. And if people don't like the unofficial product they may be less likely to spend time and money on the official product. Look at it this way, if NSNA hadn't been made - and yes, I know it's not fan-fiction let alone anything resembling it - how much better may Octopussy have done in the international market? It did well in the domestic American market, but not so well internationally.

With all due respect glidrose, you are trying to make a point by comparing apples and oranges here - as you acknowledge yourself.

I'm actually looking forward to reading Dustin's rebuttal. Should make interesting reading. His stuff nearly always is.

With that at least I agree

[Dustin]

Working on it...

[ACE]

John Pearson did actually approach Glidrose back in the day to write the biography of James Bond. That's why he co-owns the copyright of that book with Glidrose.

But generally, what Dustin said...

They were approached, though one might argue Benson's application technically was his JAMES BOND BEDSIDE COMPANION.

That said I'm fairly sure IFP and Eon both would have to have a permanent lease on huge storehouses around the world, to keep all the unsolicited material the get each day. As it is they apparently send back such efforts unopened to their originators to avoid legal infringement matters. So there is most likely zero chance to have anything Bond related sent to them and get their approval after the fact.

Incidentally, an acquaintance of mine did write a Bond novel from scratch and sent it to a Bond copyright holder to get published. I had to gently point out to them that Eon Productions Ltd don't even own the copyright to the films, let alone the books!

[Dustin]

Thanks, ACE. Didn't know the detail about Pearson, most interesting!

[glidrose]

John Pearson did actually approach Glidrose back in the day to write the biography of James Bond. That's why he co-owns the copyright of that book with Glidrose.

Pearson didn't approach Glidrose. I don't know where you got that or who told you that but it is most decidely WRONG.

William Armstrong (Sidgwick & Jackson publisher) came up with the idea, recruited Pearson (who was initially reluctant), and then Armstrong pitched it to Glidrose who were also initially reluctant but eventually came on board.

Thanks, ACE. Didn't know the detail about Pearson, most interesting!

Sigh. This is how misinformation spreads.

[Dustin]

OK, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience.

I won't debate here the relative merits of fanfiction in terms of literary value, though I of course could. But I feel it is in the end beside the point, and I hope to show why a little later if you just bear with me for a while.

Instead, I would suggest that in order to get a handle on the topic we must first define what fanfiction is; what exactly, in its true essence. And then see as to why it - supposedly or actually - poses a problem, and for whom. This is in effect what legislature is trying to achieve with various forms or copyright law and infringement, identify a problem and address it in legal terms. If we want to examine the nature of fanfic and its implications it's a good idea to try and follow that path.



Let's begin with a broad statement:

"Fanfiction: fiction written by a fan using (a) fictional character(s) not belonging to the author."

Sounds legit enough.

Fact-check:

'James Bond was tired and depressed and didn't care who knew it. He ordered his fifth Scotch but fell asleep before the waitress arrived with it.'

Fiction: definitely

Fan: likewise

Using a fictional character not belonging to my property: evidently

Case closed?

If I write:

'004 was tired and depressed and didn't care who knew it. He ordered his fifth Scotch but fell asleep before the waitress arrived with it.'

then we are already in difficult waters with our definition up there. So let's adjust it to include the little bits and pieces that come with the usage of another author's intellectual property (which is what we are really dealing with here; intellectual property, stuff someone thought up).

How about defining fanfiction as:

"Fanfiction: fiction written by a fan using (a/number of) fictional character(s) and situations not belonging to the author."

Sounds better, doesn't it? And has the added advantage of including that incredible amount of fanfiction not based on a single character but on an entire set of circumstances (a universe) such as STAR WARS, STAR TREK, ALIAS and so on. It may be a stretch to include that exquisite sub-branch of fanfiction based on characters like Johnnie Walker or Jack Daniels, but for the sake of the argument we will neglect this curiosity for the time being.

If I write then:

'Harry Aitken was tired and depressed and didn't care who knew it. He ordered his fifth Scotch but fell asleep before the waitress arrived with it. His job as Her Majesty's trigger finger paid for a handsome set of amenities, but sleep unfortunately was none of them and Aitken welcomed every minute of blessed unconsciousness with the open arms of the seasoned sinner; grateful for the short period of regeneration and the spiritual cleansing that came with it.'

it may still be difficult to nail it exactly - and few people will spot the obvious connection - but depending on the further text the nature of fanfiction would surely become obvious in some manner. Is that difficulty to subsume any kind of writing immediately as either fanfiction or not fanfiction already reason for demanding a better definition of fanfic? No, we can hardly expect a definite judgement by the first sentence, the first word. Every case would have to be judged according to the overall picture, the entire text or work.

It's interesting to note here nonetheless how the obstacles to a proper definition of the subject seem to grow ever denser the closer we approach the core of it. For example
COLONEL SUN belongs definitely into the realm of fanfiction (see the definition above), THE GULAG ARCHIPELAGO - despite its references to Smersh - definitely does not (note here how I do not touch upon the question of commission).



Now if I write:

"If Fleming just had written something like:

'James Bond was tired and depressed and didn't care who knew it. He ordered his fifth Scotch but fell asleep before the waitress arrived with it. His job as Her Majesty's trigger finger paid for a handsome set of amenities, but sleep unfortunately was none of them and Aitken welcomed every minute of blessed unconsciousness with the open arms of the seasoned sinner; grateful for the short period of regeneration and the spiritual cleansing that came with it.' That would have been so awesome, Bond giving in to the booze finally!"

would that be fanfiction still?

Fiction: yes

Fan: indeed

Using a fictional character and/or situation(s) not belonging to my property: nothing changed here

Why is it then this second version somehow doesn't seem to fit the hole, although it doubtlessly still qualifies by the above standards? Does the introduction of another layer - a hypothetical level - exclude this bit from the allegorical fangs of our definition above? How so?

It does not, yet the definition in itself is faulty because it approaches the matter from the wrong direction. It's based on the assumption that fanfiction was at its core a subject of literary ambition. When in reality the impetus is the examination and involvement with the source material.

Examination, discussion, involvement, analysis - now that is becoming a really broad field, one encompassing the entire forum, CBn itself, the whole of fandom even? Yes, fanfiction in its essence is a tiny sub-branch of this pastime, a condensed and focused effort of 'what-if?'. I feel it's legit to claim that, while not every examination of Bond is in its nature a work of fanfic, every work of fanfiction is essentially also examination of Bond. Not perhaps always a successful or entertaining one, granted. But examination nonetheless.



Now we have to take a look at the legitimate side of things. Nobody will seriously argue discussion and debate of Bond - or indeed any fictional character - was somehow prohibited or restricted to the approval of - in this case - the holders of the literary licence. Once a work of fiction is out there it simply defies each and every effort to containment, people will discuss the merits of GONE WITH THE WIND or THE CATCHER IN THE RYE as they will those of THE AVENGERS and THE SIMPSONS. You can't 'unthink' a character - or a story - any more than you can unstir the milk from the coffee. What's more, it is in fact the aim of the writer to get his readers involved into his tale to the point where they ponder it even when not reading any more. It's the ultimate goal to produce something so grasping, so touching that people can't get easily over it. There is no higher praise to an author's efforts than places like CBn. I dare say Fleming would never have dreamt such a place would exist sixty years after his first book was published. He himself was an early target for that specific adoration that expresses itself in fanfiction with BOND STRIKES CAMP and didn't mind it. Yet in a way he was also targeted - by proxy of John Gardner - by that plagiarist Hatfield, and I feel sure he would have minded that a lot.


So how to discern between - desirable - enthusiasm and excitement, perhaps even flattery and worship, and - unpreferable and flagrant - infringement on the originator's copyright? Can quality - often mentioned in the debate - be a criterion? Not really. Apart from it being a highly subjective measure, it would also diminish the numbers of both official and unofficial fanfiction.

How about that often heard argument bad fanfiction would impair and damage the reputation of the official works and their derivatives? Sorry, this doesn't stand the fact check at all. It's a concern that simply doesn't happen in this way in reality. I've been talking to fans - both casual and die-hard-Fleming-buffs - for decades; hundreds, maybe thousands of them. Never have I heard a single one claim 'That fanfic by X was so abysmally bad I've given up on reading Bond.' I won't claim here it's entirely impossible, but I feel fairly sure it's well beyond what we'd realistically expect to happen. Part of it is due to the nature of fanfiction itself: it's free and people only read it if it appeals to them. A work that doesn't simply isn't read. Nobody feels obliged to finish bad fanfiction, much less to respond to it. Nor can intentional misinterpretation and distortion in the end effect the character of another's intellectual property. Decades of Kirk/Spock fanfiction attest to that.

In the end the only realistic criterion by which to judge can be the supposed infringement itself. Does somebody try to use the intellectual property commercially? Was the use lawful perhaps? By way of satire, freedom of speech or art? In the end such matters will always have to be decided upon by the circumstances of the particular case, easy answers are hardly ever handy in law. Yet fanfiction itself is seldom the subject of such scrutiny, due to the lack of the financial dimension.



That said fanfiction does indeed pose a problem going beyond the realm of copyright and commercial or monetary matters. Some authors are vehemently against it, and with good reason. I mention here Ann Rice and George R.R. Martin as just two examples of a large number. Their reasons have been debated elsewhere and I won't repeat them here, except for the one reason that I feel is at the core of the debate. It's not so much about harming their work or their potential sales figures, it's something else and I feel they are right in their concern about it. Having somebody - an indefinite number of somebodies in fact - mess around with your own inventions includes the very real danger they may use an idea or elements you wanted to use yourself, perhaps in some different or loosely related manner. With the result you as the originator would be only the second one to go this way, following in the footsteps of somebody else where you wanted to find previously undiscovered country for your imagination to express yourself. This is a very problematic and grave matter. Only I don't know how one could ever hope to prevent it from happening.

Thanks, ACE. Didn't know the detail about Pearson, most interesting!

Sigh. This is how misinformation spreads.

Don't worry, I won't perpetuate the story until you experts come to an agreement about it.

[Baccarat]

...People *may* be less likely to buy the official product if unofficial product is available. And if people don't like the unofficial product they may be less likely to spend time and money on the official product. Look at it this way, if NSNA hadn't been made - and yes, I know it's not fan-fiction let alone anything resembling it - how much better may Octopussy have done in the international market? It did well in the domestic American market, but not so well internationally.

This argument is a real stretch, to the point of being completely spurious. Fan fiction is pretty much all dire. But more importantly, it mostly cannot be "purchased." Anyone likely to buy a book by one of the continuation authors will do so irrespective of the availibility of fan fiction. So, it comes down to how aggressively IFP or whomever chooses to "police" unauthorized fan fiction. Personally, I believe anything other than a cursory effort to be a complete waste of time and resources. Also, while I'm no expert on the litigation, NSNA v. OP is irrelevant because of the unique circumstances surrounding McClory's legal claim to the NSNA source material. The lack of international success for OP is probably rather more prosaic; it wasn't a very good film.

Edited by Baccarat, 25 November 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[MkB]

It's based on the assumption that fanfiction was at its core a subject of literary ambition. When in reality the impetus is the examination and involvement with the source material.

Examination, discussion, involvement, analysis - now that is becoming a really broad field, one encompassing the entire forum, CBn itself, the whole of fandom even? Yes, fanfiction in its essence is a tiny sub-branch of this pastime, a condensed and focused effort of 'what-if?'. I feel it's legit to claim that, while not every examination of Bond is in its nature a work of fanfic, every work of fanfiction is essentially also examination of Bond. Not perhaps always a successful or entertaining one, granted. But examination nonetheless.

Thanks for this, Dustin!
I totally agree with this. As a Bond fan, I actually came to CBn for its (now deceased) fanfiction section. I must add that I had never, ever read fanfiction of any kind before, and did not think very highly of it. But I had finished reading the Fleming canon, started some continuation novels and found them bland and uninteresting. Somehow, I wanted to give Bond fanfics a try because I expected they would express different takes on the Bond universe, freed from the boundaries imposed on official authors by IFP and mainstream publishing. I wanted to learn how fellow fans would engage with such a complex heritage, made not only of the Fleming (and possibly continuation) novels, but also decades of films with their own universe and take on Bond. You are very right, a good fanfiction is nothing else than a fan's thesis on Bond in the form of a novel or short story.

[glidrose]

The lack of international success for OP is probably rather more prosaic; it wasn't a very good film.

Au contraire! OP is one of the best! And although box office is never indicative of quality it did solid business in the North American domestic market.

[MkB]

The lack of international success for OP is probably rather more prosaic; it wasn't a very good film.

Au contraire! OP is one of the best! And although box office is never indicative of quality it did solid business in the North American domestic market.

Please, please, let's not get side-tracked... NSNA is anything but a fan fiction!