27 replies to this topic

[MkB]

Just in case you had got lost here: I gave another review, which is SPOILER-FREE here: http://debrief.comma...er-free-review/

So be warned, this one is SPOILERFUL!











Still there? Ok, let's go on then

Well, I will not go over again what I've written in the spoiler-free review...
The thing that struck me most about Skyfall is how flawed and imperfect many characters are, even (or should I say especially?) among the best. Here are some very strange (to put it mildly) moves I've noticed:

• Spoiler

  We knew since a certain clip that Eve could not really be blamed for hitting Bond instead of Patrice at the end of the PTS. It was an extremely difficult shot, and she took it under orders. That's OK. But... why not take a SECOND bloody shot, once she had put Bond down? I'll have to watch it again, but when I saw the scene, it really seemed that she would have had time enough to take at the very least a 2nd shot at Patrice - and this time with a very clean line of fire...
• Spoiler

  Bond does his little stunt on Silva's island just after the Villain "won" his little William Tell contest, which was not very nice of him, was it? OK, I'm going to be kind and give him the benefit of the doubt, let's say he did not get an opportunity before - but I wouldn't vouch for it on first viewing, seemed to me he created his own opportunity, just too late.
• Spoiler

  Bond again does a more severe mistake: when he is after Silva in the Tube tunnels, and stops him with a few shots as he's climbing up a ladder, he lets him reach for an equipment on his tactical vest which is clearly something meant as a weapon, something a terrorist held at gunpoint should on no account be allowed to do.
• Spoiler

  Bond again: we would need an MD's opinion about that, but from my basic "first aid" knowledge couldn't he have stabilized Ronson better in a few seconds, even if he couldn't stay until the evac team arrived? Laying him on the ground instead of leaving him seated (more blood to the head), and using a heavy object to compress the wound (in lieu of a hand)?
• Spoiler

  M and Kincade are on a moor at night, under attack from a group of quite aggressive and well-equipped men, and... they light their way with a torch?!? I mean... seriously?!

The only one who seems quite flawless is Silva - up to a point. He is the most wonderful Villain in a very, very long time... I could almost

Spoiler

regret that he died!

The more I think of it, the more I believe that this flawed / flawless opposition is part of the "evil twin" parallel between Bond and him. Silva is the flawless agent Bond should be, he acts with Bond just as Bond usually acts with Villains (smalltalk => diversion => escape in the Tube tunnel), etc.

I regretted that, in the first part of the movie, the locations seem to be just a nice backdrop to the action scenes. Turkey gets enough screen time, but Shanghai, Macau and even Silva's island are sorely underused. Bond just flies there, shoots and leaves. I regret this all the more since this is a film advocating for "human intelligence" as opposed to "signals intelligence". It would have been nice to see some discreet field work from Bond or Eve: local contacts, dead letterboxes, secret meetings, some "old school" spy work.

And finally: Judi Dench and Bond have the better scenes in the movie. She clearly is the Bond Girl there.

[Scrambled Eggs]

I had a feeling you might enjoy it more than me.

About the evil twin thing - theres a very good BBC radio review which picks this out, I'll post a link in the appropriate thread.

Spoiler

I was bothered by the William Tell scene more generally. There's a callous tone to it - he just slept with the girl, there's no note of regret when she dies? Not even for a second? Just "waste of good scotch"? Of course, Casino Royale Bond didnt care about the murdered girl he'd slept with but this Bond isn't quite the same guy. I need to watch it again to see if its just me being oversensitive.

[MkB]

I had a feeling you might enjoy it more than me.

Well, I'm not sure I did, your 3/5 suits me fine. Still it's a good film, IMO, but as I said in the spoiler-free review my mind was not blown.

About the evil twin thing - theres a very good BBC radio review which picks this out, I'll post a link in the appropriate thread.

Please do, I would be most interested.

Spoiler

I was bothered by the William Tell scene more generally. There's a callous tone to it - he just slept with the girl, there's no note of regret when she dies? Not even for a second? Just "waste of good scotch"? Of course, Casino Royale Bond didnt care about the murdered girl he'd slept with but this Bond isn't quite the same guy. I need to watch it again to see if its just me being oversensitive.

Indeed. The whole thing with Severine is really a botched affair.
We don't know how he gets to the yacht (officially? or as a stowaway?), we don't really know why they sleep together (except the obvious "because it's Bond"), or how both the girl and him end up as prisonners.
And BTW, I didn't dare to bring this up but you're definitely right, we need more sex. "Consensual" sex is quite underwhelming in SF, the sexiest part being probably the shave seen in the trailers. But it's not the most sexually tense moment, indeed, this one belongs to Silva.

[MkB]

Just been thinking of something else...
Do I understand correctly that during the PTS fight, when he's shot, Bond was wearing some kind of bulletproof vest under his shirt? This would be why he did not get too badly wounded by Patrice's bullets, and did suffer only minor injuries (broken ribs) from Eve's shot?
So... Leaving aside the tremendous fall that, in real life, he could not survive, he's not supposed to have really suffered a major injury, is he? He's not actually "recovering" in Turkey, just sulking because he disagreed with M's "judgement call". His poor shape when he comes back to the realm of the livings owes probably more to his self-destructive behaviour in Turkey than to an, erm, occupational injury.

If that's it, it's a striking contrast from Judi Dench's introduction as M... In GoldenEye, Bond doubted his new M would have the balls to send an agent to death if the job demanded it. In SkyFall, Bond bears M a grudge because she did just that!

[Aisforauric]

Just been thinking of something else...
Do I understand correctly that during the PTS fight, when he's shot, Bond was wearing some kind of bulletproof vest under his shirt? This would be why he did not get too badly wounded by Patrice's bullets, and did suffer only minor injuries (broken ribs) from Eve's shot?
So... Leaving aside the tremendous fall that, in real life, he could not survive, he's not supposed to have really suffered a major injury, is he? He's not actually "recovering" in Turkey, just sulking because he disagreed with M's "judgement call". His poor shape when he comes back to the realm of the livings owes probably more to his self-destructive behaviour in Turkey than to an, erm, occupational injury.

If that's it, it's a striking contrast from Judi Dench's introduction as M... In GoldenEye, Bond doubted his new M would have the balls to send an agent to death if the job demanded it. In SkyFall, Bond bears M a grudge because she did just that!

Hello Commander, I've just joined today as, like you, the ambiuguity about the exact nature of Eve shooting Bond has been really bugging me since I saw the film yesterday. I'm not sure we see a specific wound caused by the round fired by Eve that allegedly hits Bond, Bond receives no treatment we are aware of, and Bond only mentions injured ribs, so as you say it suggests he was wearing a B/P vest, with the fragments of one of Patrice's depleted uranium rounds striking his upper chest/shoulder as they pass across the top of the vest. Considering how nicely resolved much else in the film is, this aspect did rather annoy me, especially as it was so early in the first act. Be interesting to see where this goes.

[Aisforauric]

Just been thinking of something else...
Do I understand correctly that during the PTS fight, when he's shot, Bond was wearing some kind of bulletproof vest under his shirt? This would be why he did not get too badly wounded by Patrice's bullets, and did suffer only minor injuries (broken ribs) from Eve's shot?
So... Leaving aside the tremendous fall that, in real life, he could not survive, he's not supposed to have really suffered a major injury, is he? He's not actually "recovering" in Turkey, just sulking because he disagreed with M's "judgement call". His poor shape when he comes back to the realm of the livings owes probably more to his self-destructive behaviour in Turkey than to an, erm, occupational injury.

If that's it, it's a striking contrast from Judi Dench's introduction as M... In GoldenEye, Bond doubted his new M would have the balls to send an agent to death if the job demanded it. In SkyFall, Bond bears M a grudge because she did just that!

Hello Commander, I've just joined today as, like you, the ambiuguity about the exact nature of Eve shooting Bond has been really bugging me since I saw the film yesterday. I'm not sure we see a specific wound caused by the round fired by Eve that allegedly hits Bond, Bond receives no treatment we are aware of, and Bond only mentions injured ribs, so as you say it suggests he was wearing a B/P vest, with the fragments of one of Patrice's depleted uranium rounds striking his upper chest/shoulder as they pass across the top of the vest. Considering how nicely resolved much else in the film is, this aspect did rather annoy me, especially as it was so early in the first act. Be interesting to see where this goes.

I did of course mean 'MkB' not 'Commander'....I am new here ;-)

[MkB]

Welcome to CBn, Aisforauric!

Yes, I can't see any other explanation than a (very discreet) bulletproof vest. As you point out, the only visible scar is the one from Patrice's bullet. I think broken ribs is an injury compatible with a shot while wearing a Bulletproof vest. It would make sense, but it's a bit strange that we are left to suppose he's been shot by Eve and recovering in Turkey.

[TheManwiththeWaltherPPK]

The fact that Patrice's bullet was depleted uranium alone explains why it penetrated Bond's vest and Eve's bullet didn't. Uranium is a very dense substance and is excellent at penetrating armour. That is why it is used in anti-tank rounds. We don't need to worry about whether it struck an area less protected by the vest because it would penetrate the vest anyways.

[MkB]

So we all agree, he was wearing a vest, then

[Tony_OO_Black]

And finally: Judi Dench and Bond have the better scenes in the movie. She clearly is the Bond Girl there.

I loved this fact.

My girlfriend said as we left that she liked the way it was more about Bond's dynamic with his 'mother' figure (and by proxy his relationship to England, his job etc...) than just another quip-filled romance. Eve & Severine were both secondary to M, and that made for a wonderful change.

[MkB]

Another little thing that came back to my mind: Silva tells Bond how M lied to him about his evaluations. I'd like to add my pedantic tuppence: Silva tells Bond that his mark for the shooting evaluation was 40, instead of 70 as he had been told.
Well, I don't hink that would work. You can cheat on the marks for the physical, medical and psychological evaluations, of course, but for the shooting marks it seems difficult to me. The shooters can see for himself what his results are on the target. In competition shooting at least, being able to announce your mark on the target just after the shot is part of the process, so it would be a very poor shooter who would believe a made-up mark.

[Aisforauric]

So we all agree, he was wearing a vest, then

Sadly, MkB, that would seem to be the only 'obvious' answer, and to that end rather unsatisfying, really, as it's not usually part of Bond's wardrobe.
This and the lack of Eve firing a burst at Patrice before he entered the tunnel could have been resolved rather nicely (in my mind) as follows:

Eve shoots at the pair fighting on the top of the train. Her round hits Patrice in the back, and he's wearing body-armour. He's flung forwards and knocks Bond off the roof the train.
Patrice is lying on his stomach flattened by the round hitting his back and disappears into the nearby tunnel before Eve can fire again.
Patrice is hurt from the round stopped by his body-armour and Bond sustains his rib injury in the fall.
Then, rather nicely, Bond and Partice both fight later on in Shanghai, both harbouring injuries, just to make it all rather poetic and a level playing field.

And finally: Judi Dench and Bond have the better scenes in the movie. She clearly is the Bond Girl there.

I loved this fact.

My girlfriend said as we left that she liked the way it was more about Bond's dynamic with his 'mother' figure (and by proxy his relationship to England, his job etc...) than just another quip-filled romance. Eve & Severine were both secondary to M, and that made for a wonderful change.

Agreed, and that final scene with Bond and M worked really well....and I really liked the ambiguity of two 'tears' (or were they droplets of the lake water?) that ran down Bond's cheeks? Really nicely done...

[MkB]

So we all agree, he was wearing a vest, then

Sadly, MkB, that would seem to be the only 'obvious' answer, and to that end rather unsatisfying, really, as it's not usually part of Bond's wardrobe.
This and the lack of Eve firing a burst at Patrice before he entered the tunnel could have been resolved rather nicely (in my mind) as follows:

Eve shoots at the pair fighting on the top of the train. Her round hits Patrice in the back, and he's wearing body-armour. He's flung forwards and knocks Bond off the roof the train.
Patrice is lying on his stomach flattened by the round hitting his back and disappears into the nearby tunnel before Eve can fire again.
Patrice is hurt from the round stopped by his body-armour and Bond sustains his rib injury in the fall.
Then, rather nicely, Bond and Partice both fight later on in Shanghai, both harbouring injuries, just to make it all rather poetic and a level playing field.

Why, I have no objections to Bond wearing a bulletproof vest, really. After all it would make sense in his situation, as long as it is discreet enough to go unnotiiced.
I like your alternative, Aisforauric, but I tones down the initial trust issue between Eve and Bond, if she does not hit him personnaly. I believe the story arc of their relationship was asking for that.

[MkB]

Today I've seen Skyfall for the second time, and I must admit that it's growing on me. Maybe it's just because I enjoyed a screening at the Curzon in Mayfair (probably the cinema Bond would go to, if he went to a cinema).
I still have the same issues with the film, but on the whole I accept them better. I'm developping a theory that to some Skyfall is an acquired taste!

I'm not overenthusiastic about the third act, at Skyfall (BTW, am I the only one to think that this stag on top of a pilar of the Skyfall gate is in awful taste? it was worth blowing up the place only to make it disappear).
Although I had not specially minded him at my first viewing, I am developping an aversion for the Kincade character. Maybe it's because it makes really too many elderly people with Bond for the grand finale? But really I find him quite unnecessary and annoying, and not at all the father figure I'd imagine for Bond and which - I guess? - he is supposed to be. His lack of Scottish accent - for an old Highlands gamekeeper!!! - irritates me, and he makes me think of those mumbling, annoying great-uncles you're glad to see only once in a while when you're a kid, maybe because they don't smell very good.

Oh well... we'll see how it goes after my 3rd viewing!

[Aisforauric]

Love The Curzon as well, probably would have been Bond's chosen fleapit. Agree as well regarding Kincade, he starts-off all bolshy and up-for-anything and at the crunch he's just hovering in the chapel doorway not even giving Silva some lip (which would have been a great verbal stand-off if he's weaponless).

[Vauxhall]

His lack of Scottish accent - for an old Highlands gamekeeper!!! - irritates me

I still absolutely agree with this!

I do quite like the character in some ways, but his cowed demeanour when M meets her maker is very disappointing. It's interesting to speculate about what Bond would have made of Kincade's failure to act in that circumstance.

[The Shark]

I detected a Scottish accent, though not a thick one. Makes sense for an eccentric recluse with probably very little contact with the outside world, apart from food supplies and so on. People in isolation from others can develop strange accents.

I don't have a problem with how he acted in that scene. He let her surrogate son hold in her final moments, and removed his cap like a gentleman.

[MkB]

I detected a Scottish accent, though not a thick one. Makes sense for an eccentric recluse with probably very little contact with the outside world, apart from food supplies and so on. People in isolation from others can develop strange accents.

Yes, but really in my experience people in isolation from others in the Highlands develop a Scottish accent (which is a strange accent, I'll grant you that )

I don't have a problem with how he acted in that scene. He let her surrogate son hold in her final moments, and removed his cap like a gentleman.

Well, that's the least he could do, isn't it? Really there is no point in letting him live, the only explanation I see to his surviving the final confrontation is that the screenwriters did not want Kincade to steal the show from M, Bond should not be mourning two people at the same time.

[The Shark]

Really there is no point in letting him live.

There's no point in killing him off either, is there?

[MkB]

Really there is no point in letting him live.

There's no point in killing him off either, is there?

Not really, although one might argue that it would be more logical for Silva to just kill him.
But honestly I don't particularly want him dead, I'd just prefer he did not exist.

[honeyjes]

I don’t think it’s the film maker’s job to appease your hang ups about old people. Quite sad if you deem our elders worthless. Bizarrely your griping doesn’t set you apart from the very people you have problems with.

Edited by honeyjes, 07 November 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[MkB]

I don’t think it’s the film maker’s job to appease your hang ups about old people. Quite sad if you deem our elders worthless. Bizarrely your griping doesn’t set you apart from the very people you have problems with.

Just to be sure: you realize we're discussing a fictional character, don't you?

[honeyjes]

Yes I know we are discussing a fictional character, but your posts don't appear to paint a picture of actually having any time for old folk fictional or otherwise..

[MkB]

Yes I know we are discussing a fictional character, but your posts don't appear to paint a picture of actually having any time for old folk fictional or otherwise..

Actually your judgement is quite unfair. I hate the old folks and youths alike. If only Skyfall had babies in it, you would hear a piece of my mind about these creatures.


On an unrelated (?) note, I've been wondering about the time Bond spends in Turkey. The more I think about it, the more I find his haunting beach bars does not fit well with his character. It's full of what looks like tourists / local "golden youth", he's paying rounds of drinks while being the centre of attention during a drinking game... hardly the lone wolf I would imagine!
I feel the same about one of his answers during the psychological evaluation, something like (from memory) "Q: Sun? A: Swimming" (fine) then "Q: Moon? A: Dancing". Really? Bond dancing? I'm having a hard time imagining Craing's Bond sweating his life out on the dancefloor.
Any thoughts?

[Germanlady]

• [quote]
  Spoiler

  We knew since a certain clip that Eve could not really be blamed for hitting Bond instead of Patrice at the end of the PTS. It was an extremely difficult shot, and she took it under orders. That's OK. But... why not take a SECOND bloody shot, once she had put Bond down? I'll have to watch it again, but when I saw the scene, it really seemed that she would have had time enough to take at the very least a 2nd shot at Patrice - and this time with a very clean line of fire...
  [quote]

She was a young, unexperienced agent. She was terrified, that she just shot James Bond. Probably not able to move or think straight for a few seconds. After that, it was too late

• Spoiler

  Bond does his little stunt on Silva's island just after the Villain "won" his little William Tell contest, which was not very nice of him, was it? OK, I'm going to be kind and give him the benefit of the doubt, let's say he did not get an opportunity before - but I wouldn't vouch for it on first viewing, seemed to me he created his own opportunity, just too late.

He couldn't be sure, what was going to happen or that Silva would shoot her so fast. Remember he had a gun directed at his head during the whole time. Probably his anger (yes anger - you want him to FEEL something. Lets assume he did) and the realisation it could be too late rather quick, made him fight back that instant.

• Spoiler

  Bond again does a more severe mistake: when he is after Silva in the Tube tunnels, and stops him with a few shots as he's climbing up a ladder, he lets him reach for an equipment on his tactical vest which is clearly something meant as a weapon, something a terrorist held at gunpoint should on no account be allowed to do.

I assume, the goal was to bring him in alive, to question him. BTW a lesson Craig Bond has learned in both his films. Bond always trusted his ability to react fast enough to remain successful, even in the most tricky situation. Had Silva raised a gun, Bond was sure, he would be able to shoot him first, IF necessary.

• Spoiler

  Bond again: we would need an MD's opinion about that, but from my basic "first aid" knowledge couldn't he have stabilized Ronson better in a few seconds, even if he couldn't stay until the evac team arrived? Laying him on the ground instead of leaving him seated (more blood to the head), and using a heavy object to compress the wound (in lieu of a hand)?

In am sure, this is a valid point. But really - this is Bond. Bond ALWAYS sacrificed reality for the sake of a good dramatic scene or a good scene of whatsoever. To me, this scene was touching and also showed, that this Bond has learned to obey orders.

I regretted that, in the first part of the movie, the locations seem to be just a nice backdrop to the action scenes. Turkey gets enough screen time, but Shanghai, Macau and even Silva's island are sorely underused. Bond just flies there, shoots and leaves. I regret this all the more since this is a film advocating for "human intelligence" as opposed to "signals intelligence". It would have been nice to see some discreet field work from Bond or Eve: local contacts, dead letterboxes, secret meetings, some "old school" spy work.

London was meant to be the main location, so they ticked the boxes with the other countries, but concentrated on London. I think, there was a lot of scenes to do with "spy work" actually, more then in many of the other films. But you have a very clear idea of what you want of this spy work and it wasn't in there like this. fair enough. I didn't miss it.

[Aisforauric]

Yes I know we are discussing a fictional character, but your posts don't appear to paint a picture of actually having any time for old folk fictional or otherwise..

Actually your judgement is quite unfair. I hate the old folks and youths alike. If only Skyfall had babies in it, you would hear a piece of my mind about these creatures.


On an unrelated (?) note, I've been wondering about the time Bond spends in Turkey. The more I think about it, the more I find his haunting beach bars does not fit well with his character. It's full of what looks like tourists / local "golden youth", he's paying rounds of drinks while being the centre of attention during a drinking game... hardly the lone wolf I would imagine!
I feel the same about one of his answers during the psychological evaluation, something like (from memory) "Q: Sun? A: Swimming" (fine) then "Q: Moon? A: Dancing". Really? Bond dancing? I'm having a hard time imagining Craing's Bond sweating his life out on the dancefloor.
Any thoughts?

It would have been much more entertaining if Bond had said 'Raker' after 'Moon' and then winked at the camera like he does to Mallory during the hearing shoot-out. Only kidding.
My take is Bond was treating the psych eval with complete contempt, and in some ways was enjoying giving broadly speaking meaningless answers to mask what a mess he was.
I also found the Turkey beach-bum scene (let it be known as Heineken-gate) a bit incongruous, especially as I was still (and to this day still am) trying to work out exactly where Eve had shot him.
You can't hep think if Bond wanted to go to ground he'd have hooked-up with some dodgy underworld types he might have connections with.

[MkB]

@GermanLady: thanks for your thoughts! I was really hoping that someone would pick up this idea of the flawed characters. Your points are valid of course (even though as you point out rightfully, we have different expectations). But I find it an interesting aspect of the "mirrors" analogy between the good and evil sides that the "good guys" make many mistakes in SF, while the Villain acts with surgical precision.

@Aisforauric: I think you're right about the psych eval. "Dancing", true or not, is a safer answer than, say "playing deadly drinking games with a scorpion"
As for going to the ground, I'm with you. He sticks out in this crowd (if only because he's older than the others), and it does not fit the character of the guy who "reflected in a double Bourbon" in Golfinger, brooding alone.

[Aisforauric]

@GermanLady: thanks for your thoughts! I was really hoping that someone would pick up this idea of the flawed characters. Your points are valid of course (even though as you point out rightfully, we have different expectations). But I find it an interesting aspect of the "mirrors" analogy between the good and evil sides that the "good guys" make many mistakes in SF, while the Villain acts with surgical precision.

@Aisforauric: I think you're right about the psych eval. "Dancing", true or not, is a safer answer than, say "playing deadly drinking games with a scorpion"
As for going to the ground, I'm with you. He sticks out in this crowd (if only because he's older than the others), and it does not fit the character of the guy who "reflected in a double Bourbon" in Golfinger, brooding alone.

Agreed MkB, The more I see that scene of Bond drinking 'Scorpion Bite n Black' the more it looks like something from a Club 18-30 or suchlike promo video. It's just a bit naff....and not at all a brooding reflective Bond. I think back to that rather nicely shot scene in TND where Bond sits in his hotel room, drinking vodka, waiting to see who Carver sends for him. Much more subtle.