199 replies to this topic

[Odd Jobbies]

a change is good but I think john Logan should work with another screenwriter......but who?

With Logan becoming the head writer, I would think that Blofeld is coming back? He did mention it in a interview.......

 

That fits well with the back-to-back shoot of B24 & 25 rumour.

 

And if that means means Mendes returning, then count on his mews Kevin Spacey being Blofeld. Mendes said that Spacey couldn't appear in Skyfall because of schedule conflict (Richard III i think!), suggesting he'd wanted him in his Bond movie.

 

Several years ago i'd have loved to see Kaiser Soze as Blofeld, but after his Lex Luther i'm not so sure. However, i am sure that in Mendes hands he'd be far better. Bring it on!

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 03 January 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[Bucky]

 

a change is good but I think john Logan should work with another screenwriter......but who?

With Logan becoming the head writer, I would think that Blofeld is coming back? He did mention it in a interview.......

 

That fits well with the back-to-back shoot of B24 & 25 rumour.

 

And if that means means Mendes returning, then count on his mews Kevin Spacey being Blofeld. Mendes said that Spacey couldn't appear in Skyfall because of schedule conflict (Richard III i think!), suggesting he'd wanted him in his Bond movie.

 

Several years ago i'd have loved to see Kaiser Soze as Blofeld, but after his Lex Luther i'm not so sure. However, i am sure that in Mendes hands he'd be far better. Bring it on!

 

 

And can't forget his cameo as himself playing Dr. Evil in the fake movie in the last Austin Powers movie.

 

Although if they did include Blofeld I am sure they would go in a different direction. Possibly closer to the books.

Edited by Bucky, 03 January 2013 - 01:06 PM.

[Odd Jobbies]

 

 

a change is good but I think john Logan should work with another screenwriter......but who?

With Logan becoming the head writer, I would think that Blofeld is coming back? He did mention it in a interview.......

 

That fits well with the back-to-back shoot of B24 & 25 rumour.

 

And if that means means Mendes returning, then count on his mews Kevin Spacey being Blofeld. Mendes said that Spacey couldn't appear in Skyfall because of schedule conflict (Richard III i think!), suggesting he'd wanted him in his Bond movie.

 

Several years ago i'd have loved to see Kaiser Soze as Blofeld, but after his Lex Luther i'm not so sure. However, i am sure that in Mendes hands he'd be far better. Bring it on!

 

 

And can't forget his cameo as himself playing Dr. Evil in the fake movie in the last Austin Powers movie.

 

Although if they did include Blofeld I am sure they would go in a different direction. Possibly closer to the books.

 

 

Good point. Maybe that would count him out, then.

 

Closer to the books the better 99% of the time, i say. I recall the literary Blofeld as a big man, putting me in mind of Brando as Kurtz in Apocalypse Now (not fat, just a bear of a man). This is why their final sword fight reads so well - a fight between the screen Blofeld (the Dr Evil type) wouldn't work as he's not physically intimidating (and i don't see Spacey hitting the gym, or busting out any kung fu moves to compensate).

Edited by Odd Jobbies, 03 January 2013 - 07:50 PM.

[Mallory]

It would be interested in seeing what Logan comes up with. Purvis and Wade seem like they come up with great ideas but they seem to forget about them during the course of the writing. Bringing on another writer like Paul Haggis for CR and QoS and Logan for Skyfall helped developed those ideas to a satisfying conclusion. 

 

If they ever do come back I can see them retrying to that Bond imprisoned plotline.

[Revelator]

 

It's funny that you say that - I've been guilty over the years (and in this thread alone) of putting the boot into P&W, but now that they're gone, I think it's only fair to give them credit where credit is due. They got re-written by who knows how many on TWINE, and for CR and SF they laid down a solid foundation.

I've always said that when they were left on their own (DAD), well, the end-result speaks for itself, but as for CR, I do think that Haggis has got an undue amount of credit. Everyone says that he polished the dialogue of some key scenes, but P&W did a good job of updating and adding to the structure of the novel...

The Empire podcast with the two of them is fascinating.

 

 

I think the Empire podcast shows that P&W were not left on their own for DAD--the idea of making the Aston Martin completely invisible was the director's, not theirs. TWINE on the other hand was rewritten by the director's wife. QoS was based on an unfinished draft of a Haggis script only slightly based on P&W's finished one. Nor do we know fully and exactly what Logan contributed to Skyfall (or Haggis to CR). Lastly, we're leaving out the immense power of the producers, who are clearly behind the night-and-day shift  between the content and feel of the Brosnan and Craig eras. Until we have a better history of the past few films' production, a full evaluation of P&W will be impossible. But I suspect they're underrated. And I wouldn't be surprised if they were called in to work on future Bond scripts--maybe even Logan's...

[L4YRCAKE]

 

 

It's funny that you say that - I've been guilty over the years (and in this thread alone) of putting the boot into P&W, but now that they're gone, I think it's only fair to give them credit where credit is due. They got re-written by who knows how many on TWINE, and for CR and SF they laid down a solid foundation.

I've always said that when they were left on their own (DAD), well, the end-result speaks for itself, but as for CR, I do think that Haggis has got an undue amount of credit. Everyone says that he polished the dialogue of some key scenes, but P&W did a good job of updating and adding to the structure of the novel...

The Empire podcast with the two of them is fascinating.

 

 

I think the Empire podcast shows that P&W were not left on their own for DAD--the idea of making the Aston Martin completely invisible was the director's, not theirs. TWINE on the other hand was rewritten by the director's wife. QoS was based on an unfinished draft of a Haggis script only slightly based on P&W's finished one. Nor do we know fully and exactly what Logan contributed to Skyfall (or Haggis to CR). Lastly, we're leaving out the immense power of the producers, who are clearly behind the night-and-day shift  between the content and feel of the Brosnan and Craig eras. Until we have a better history of the past few films' production, a full evaluation of P&W will be impossible. But I suspect they're underrated. And I wouldn't be surprised if they were called in to work on future Bond scripts--maybe even Logan's...

 

 

In an interview I saw with Sam Mendes recently (on youtube, I think?) he more or less said that he and Purvis/Wade hit an impasse and  that he couldn't work with them any longer and fired them and brought in John Logan.   He didn't quite say it directly but that was my take reading between the lines of his statements to the interviewer.  Given the financial success of Skyfall, I'd say that P&W announcing an amicable split was their way of pretending that they quit instead of the other way around.  Personally I doubt we'll see them associated with Bond ever again, then again if 24 & 25 faceplant the producers miiiight try to retreat to safe territory.  I doubt that'll happen though,  I loved Skyfall but Craig's best Bond(s) I think are ahead of him.  

[graric]

 

 

 

It's funny that you say that - I've been guilty over the years (and in this thread alone) of putting the boot into P&W, but now that they're gone, I think it's only fair to give them credit where credit is due. They got re-written by who knows how many on TWINE, and for CR and SF they laid down a solid foundation.

I've always said that when they were left on their own (DAD), well, the end-result speaks for itself, but as for CR, I do think that Haggis has got an undue amount of credit. Everyone says that he polished the dialogue of some key scenes, but P&W did a good job of updating and adding to the structure of the novel...

The Empire podcast with the two of them is fascinating.

 

 

I think the Empire podcast shows that P&W were not left on their own for DAD--the idea of making the Aston Martin completely invisible was the director's, not theirs. TWINE on the other hand was rewritten by the director's wife. QoS was based on an unfinished draft of a Haggis script only slightly based on P&W's finished one. Nor do we know fully and exactly what Logan contributed to Skyfall (or Haggis to CR). Lastly, we're leaving out the immense power of the producers, who are clearly behind the night-and-day shift  between the content and feel of the Brosnan and Craig eras. Until we have a better history of the past few films' production, a full evaluation of P&W will be impossible. But I suspect they're underrated. And I wouldn't be surprised if they were called in to work on future Bond scripts--maybe even Logan's...

 

 

In an interview I saw with Sam Mendes recently (on youtube, I think?) he more or less said that he and Purvis/Wade hit an impasse and  that he couldn't work with them any longer and fired them and brought in John Logan.   He didn't quite say it directly but that was my take reading between the lines of his statements to the interviewer.  Given the financial success of Skyfall, I'd say that P&W announcing an amicable split was their way of pretending that they quit instead of the other way around.  Personally I doubt we'll see them associated with Bond ever again, then again if 24 & 25 faceplant the producers miiiight try to retreat to safe territory.  I doubt that'll happen though,  I loved Skyfall but Craig's best Bond(s) I think are ahead of him.  

 

Agree with L4YER CAKE: the problem with judging their contributions from the Empire Interview is that it felt too me like they were trying to play up their own contributions to the scripts (while distancing themselves from any faults in their films, i.e. they didn't come up with the invisible car in DAD or how  they insisted that QoS would have worked better if their screenplay had been used instead of Haggis' draft.)

Their role in the last few scripts seems to be to me more about coming up with a story and draft before a director is involved, then another writer is brought in to help shape the film to the Directors vision/ iron out the script.

Using the example of Skyfall, even John Logan acknowledges that the story was basically in place before he arrived, it just needed some fine tuning (and likely Medes wanted it to reach a deeper level than Purvis and Wade were capable of), the fact that John Logan has been brought in to write the next film already is proof enough that they felt he contributed something important to the film (negotiations with him began before the release of Skyfall so his signing would not have been based on box office figures) 

[Odd Jobbies]

Agree with L4YER CAKE: the problem with judging their contributions from the Empire Interview is that it felt too me like they were trying to play up their own contributions to the scripts (while distancing themselves from any faults in their films, i.e. they didn't come up with the invisible car in DAD or how  they insisted that QoS would have worked better if their screenplay had been used instead of Haggis' draft.)

Their role in the last few scripts seems to be to me more about coming up with a story and draft before a director is involved, then another writer is brought in to help shape the film to the Directors vision/ iron out the script.

Using the example of Skyfall, even John Logan acknowledges that the story was basically in place before he arrived, it just needed some fine tuning (and likely Medes wanted it to reach a deeper level than Purvis and Wade were capable of), the fact that John Logan has been brought in to write the next film already is proof enough that they felt he contributed something important to the film (negotiations with him began before the release of Skyfall so his signing would not have been based on box office figures) 

 

That's all very plausible and likely. No offence to them, but i think p&W were the last negative vestiges of the pre-reboot. I think now we're in fresh territory for first time with B24. Can't wait to see the results.

[L4YRCAKE]

I agree with that, and with all respect to P&W; the bizarre thing is that they've been main components in both some of the worst and best Bond films in rotating order, although I will say that they had a great structure to work from for Casino Royale considering it was from a Fleming novel.   Nonetheless, they did a great job with it as did everyone else involved with the film and deserve as much credit as anyone for that one.  

 

At this point in time it's easy to bid a fond farewell to P&W, but the real moment will be when Bond 24 (and 25) comes out;  my gut tells me Sam Mendes will return to direct, and if the next film's a total failure then their contributions will probably be missed/reassessed.  But if it's great and capitalizes on the strong story/visual elements of Skyfall (and the big chance they took with that ending!) then it'll probably be hard to defend their departure as anything but overdue. 

 

Or, third way, Bond 24 comes out and is indistinguishable from the Purvis and Wade era.  I doubt it but will be the first to admit I'm biased.  

[Revelator]

I believe I saw the same youtube interview , and the impression I got was that Mendes liked their script and then decided to follow convention by letting another writer, one he was close to,  take a whack at it and see what happens. You don't get fired from a screenplay, and it's rare for any large-scale production of this sort not to receive multiple drafts from multiple writers.

 

Agree with L4YER CAKE: the problem with judging their contributions from the Empire Interview is that it felt too me like they were trying to play up their own contributions to the scripts (while distancing themselves from any faults in their films, i.e. they didn't come up with the invisible car in DAD or how  they insisted that QoS would have worked better if their screenplay had been used instead of Haggis' draft.)

...Using the example of Skyfall, even John Logan acknowledges that the story was basically in place before he arrived, it just needed some fine tuning (and likely Medes wanted it to reach a deeper level than Purvis and Wade were capable of), the fact that John Logan has been brought in to write the next film already is proof enough that they felt he contributed something important to the film (negotiations with him began before the release of Skyfall so his signing would not have been based on box office figures) 

 

 

 

Any writer interviewed about his work will play it up, and why shouldn't they distance themselves from some of the more glaring faults in films they didn't have script control over? Unless one suspects they're not telling the truth, I'm quite willing to believe that they didn't intend for the car to be invisible, and that their finished QoS script would have worked better than an unfinished one that had to be rewritten on the fly. (Any time a film has to be rewritten while filming, it's in trouble.)

 

And if the story of SkyFall was already in place, doesn't that argue that P&W did a good job with what is the hardest part of screenwriting, the story? One can speculate about a mystical "deeper level," but until we've seen the drafts, we really don't know what Logan brought to the project. The fact that he was brought in to write the next film is unimportant--weren't P&W retained after each of the films they scripted?  I don't want to overrate P&W--but the problem of rating them at all is that nobody here has an exact idea of who wrote what. That said, Logan is a well-acclaimed and experienced screenwriter with credits such as Hugo, so perhaps we would do a better job than P&W. We just don't know yet.

[Dustin]

I don't want to overrate P&W--but the problem of rating them at all is that nobody here has an exact idea of who wrote what.

 

 

I think this really stands at the centre of the entire discussion about P&W and other writers - we know next to nothing for sure. Add to that the fact no Bond film up to now - as far as we are aware of - had just one single writer to thank for the script and we will perhaps only appreciate the input of the team once they are gone and we have to content with somebody else.  

[plankattack]

And if the story of SkyFall was already in place, doesn't that argue that P&W did a good job with what is the hardest part of screenwriting, the story? One can speculate about a mystical "deeper level," but until we've seen the drafts, we really don't know what Logan brought to the project. The fact that he was brought in to write the next film is unimportant--weren't P&W retained after each of the films they scripted?  I don't want to overrate P&W--but the problem of rating them at all is that nobody here has an exact idea of who wrote what. That said, Logan is a well-acclaimed and experienced screenwriter with credits such as Hugo, so perhaps we would do a better job than P&W. We just don't know yet.

 

Agreed. Clearly P&W contributed "something" of note to the SF script, otherwise their names would've been removed a la Morgan. And by the same token, they've clearly contributed in large fashion to all the films with their name on.

 

I think it's too easy to dismiss everything we don't like in the last five films as P&W's work, and everything we do as somebody else's, whether it be Logan or Haggis.

 

While I don't agree with everything EON has done over the years, one thing we have to respect is their ability as film producers in a rough and tumble business where profits are the only bottom line, and if P&W really were the amateurish hacks all of us have one time or another called them over the years, then Babs and Mike would have turfed them out a long time ago and replaced them with other writers. 

 

Take CR. Haggis got a lot of credit for CR - at the time his name was seen as gold and everyone from DC down was giving him credit for "polishing" the dialogue and sprinkling his "magic" dust. But that doesn't change the need for another writer to have adapted the source material, removing, re-ordering, re-shaping what wouldn't work for the screen. It may not be glamourous work, but it's still necessary work.

 

I suspect that P&W have been very good "technicians", shaping a plot and making it work, as much as any fantasy film works. As others have said SF has plot holes, but go back through the series and you'll find holes in each of the films. You see enough recurring themes through their time with the franchise to guess at a sense of their presence (MI6 under threat, Bond on the outs etc), but to attempt to marginalize their contribution is more than a little disingenuous.

 

Clearly they have served some purpose in the creation process that new writer(s) will have to replace. Any three guys in a pub can sit around and come up with a story and a couple of lines - "Yeah, he can make some joke about keeping his end up after the car chase" but turning it into a 200-page script that a director and crew can work around is a far greater undertaking. 

 

No, they weren't Orson Welles, but revisionism shouldn't be so dismissive.

 

I can't believe I just stuck up for P&W.....!  

[S K Y F A L L]

I don't think I would welcome the return of P&W, its time for a change and I bet these guys want to spend more time developing a 3rd Johnny English film. 

[L4YRCAKE]

@Revelator:  

 

You're right, I know you don't get fired from a screenplay but Mendes' wording was stronger than that and it really caught my attention because it seemed unusually candid, maybe I'll post the link because I'm not entirely sure we watched the same interview.  Mendes essentially singled out one of the two writers, don't remember which one, and essentially said something like he could no longer work with that person and removed him from the equation and brought in someone he felt he could work with.  I mean, sure, technically that's not getting fired, but it probably set the tone for a discussion of Purvis and Wade not being invited back for future installments.   Which is basically like getting fired except you are shown the writing on the wall and get the chance to say 'I quit' first to save face so it all looks professional and amicable.

 

Again, I was pretty darned struck by Mendes' candid talk about the issue.  I'll have to watch it again to make sure I heard it correctly.

[plankattack]

@Revelator:  

 

You're right, I know you don't get fired from a screenplay but Mendes' wording was stronger than that and it really caught my attention because it seemed unusually candid, maybe I'll post the link because I'm not entirely sure we watched the same interview.  Mendes essentially singled out one of the two writers, don't remember which one, and essentially said something like he could no longer work with that person and removed him from the equation and brought in someone he felt he could work with.  I mean, sure, technically that's not getting fired, but it probably set the tone for a discussion of Purvis and Wade not being invited back for future installments.   Which is basically like getting fired except you are shown the writing on the wall and get the chance to say 'I quit' first to save face so it all looks professional and amicable.

 

Again, I was pretty darned struck by Mendes' candid talk about the issue.  I'll have to watch it again to make sure I heard it correctly.

L4yer - are you sure that Mendes was not referring to Peter Morgan? Mendes did go on the record as saying that there was nothing of Morgan (who had apparently taken credit for the "big hook") left in the script that P&W and then Logan worked. Mendes actually said somewhere else (maybe one of the video interviews that have been linked on other threads) that he and Logan worked from a draft (done by P&W) that was a "strong machine"

[Vauxhall]

I agree. That sounds more like something Mendes said when asked about Peter Morgan, rather than Purvis and/or Wade, but I might have missed an interview somewhere along the line.

[L4YRCAKE]

I agree. That sounds more like something Mendes said when asked about Peter Morgan, rather than Purvis and/or Wade, but I might have missed an interview somewhere along the line.

 

Ulp.  You all may be correct, I'd better go verify so I know what I'm talking about.  

[L4YRCAKE]

Okay, here's the link to the interview I saw, and after listening to it carefully his direct quote is (I think) 'I'd gotten to the end of my rope with Robert and Neal and had brought on John Logan'.  It's right around the 11 second mark, am I reading too much into this...?

 

[graric]

Okay, here's the link to the interview I saw, and after listening to it carefully his direct quote is (I think) 'I'd gotten to the end of my rope with Robert and Neal and had brought on John Logan'.  It's right around the 11 second mark, am I reading too much into this...?

 

 

^11 minute mark....to me it sounds more like he is saying 'gotten to the end of my work with Robert and Neal' rather than rope...but he does refer to the gap which saw John Logan come in as the best thing that happened to the film (and specifically says 'we had a great script' after Logan has worked on it.)

While I don't think this suggests Purvis and Wade wrote a bad script, it does suggest they might not have been capable of writing a script to the level that Sam Mendes required: while they may have been able to come up with the story, there is a big difference between coming up with a strong story and being able to turn that story into an amazing script (the story of Skyfall is quite simple in many ways, and influenced by both TWINE and Mendes request to make the film about Judi Dench's M)

All these interviews suggest to me that their role post-DAD was too lay the foundations of the story, a vital role, before another Screenwriter comes in and shapes their work into a script more fine-tuned to the director's vision of the film.

[plankattack]

Good interview. Kind of think he says "work" not "rope" but I don't feel he's dismissive of P&W. As he says later, Logan himself was very fair about the work done previously, but it is clear that Logan was the one who shaped what P&W had brought in raw form.

I wish I could find which thread had another Mendes interview - in that one he is openly dismissive (well, as openly dismissive as a man seemingly as polite and charming that Mendes comes across as could be) of Morgan, who had apparently claimed that SF was his idea. Interesting in this interview that Mendes does say that there was the one idea when he first came on board.

Mendes was very clear in that particular interview that the credited writers were the ones who should get the credit, rather than another trying to claim the credit.