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For whom did the Fleming Bond work?


18 replies to this topic

#1 perdogg

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:46 PM

I am refering to the Fleming novels only, but there seems to be some idea that Bond worked for MI6 where there is ample documented evidence that he worked within the Ministry of Defence.

I have searched all of my kindle books and there is no reference to SIS or MI6. In fact, in YOLT it states that Bond worked for MoD. Yet, people continue to claim that Bond worked for MI6 in the Fleming novels.

#2 Single-O-Seven

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:18 PM

I am refering to the Fleming novels only, but there seems to be some idea that Bond worked for MI6 where there is ample documented evidence that he worked within the Ministry of Defence.

I have searched all of my kindle books and there is no reference to SIS or MI6. In fact, in YOLT it states that Bond worked for MoD. Yet, people continue to claim that Bond worked for MI6 in the Fleming novels.


I thought the first specific reference to the SIS was made in Thunderball, early in the book. Sorry, I can't remember the specific chapter.

Before that, Fleming was likely being deliberately vague when he simply referred to Bond's employer as the "Secret Service." Aside from that, you're mostly correct about the books. In fact, the blatant MI6 name-dropping really began with the Brosnan films. Even Dr. No (the film) alters the reference to MI7. Maybe there was a sensitivity at the time, especially as far as Fleming was concerned, about using the SIS/MI6, or perhaps by creating his own shadowy version of it, Fleming felt more literary freedom in doing what he wished with such an organisation.

#3 Miles Miservy

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:35 PM

James Bond was seconded to the British Secret Service from The Royal Navy. I'm uncertain about British Government agencies but don't both of these departments, along with MI6 & SIS fall under the command of the Dept. of Defense. Moreover, wasn't the SIS department disbanded after WW2?

#4 Dustin

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:37 PM

Actually the abbreviation SIS for the Secret Service is used in OHMSS, chapter "Bond of Bond Street" for the first time IIRC. Don't remember SIS coming up in TB.

John Griswold goes deeper into the issue in his book "Ian Fleming's James Bond - Annotations and Chronologies". Griswold makes an interesting case that Fleming was hindered by the Official Secrets Act to state Bond was working for the Foreign Office. Likewise the use of the code designation "MI6" apparently was not possible, both informations supposedly not being public knowledge until the late 1960s. Fleming used a design that was briefly considered towards the end of WWII, where the SIS and SOE were supposed to form one single Secret Service under the auspices of the Ministry of Defence. Real-life developments took another turn as the intelligence establishment at SIS quickly saw to it the SOE with it's irregular personnel was disbanded and their authority over matters of intelligence unchallenged. Interesting also to note that the early works of John leCarré also do not use official designations.

#5 Jim

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

Seem to remember reading somewhere that MI6 was not publicly acknowledged as existing until about 1993 or 1994. Whether that's germane to the discussion I don't know.

#6 Dustin

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:05 PM

PS: No, Single-0-Seven is right. SIS appears in TB (written 1960 and published 1961) and Chopping's artwork for the Cape edition of FYEO (published 1960).

#7 perdogg

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 09:51 PM

PS: No, Single-0-Seven is right. SIS appears in TB (written 1960 and published 1961) and Chopping's artwork for the Cape edition of FYEO (published 1960).


SIS does appear in Thunderball in Chapter 4 along with CID. however, it is referenced in getting records.

#8 marktmurphy

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 10:03 PM

Before that, Fleming was likely being deliberately vague when he simply referred to Bond's employer as the "Secret Service." Aside from that, you're mostly correct about the books. In fact, the blatant MI6 name-dropping really began with the Brosnan films.


As I remember at the time it was a secret that SIS even existed until the early or mid nineties (presumably when Vauxhall Cross was built..?), or rather not recognised. 'MI6' was a bit of a myth, although I'm sure everyone knew it existed really- I was just a kid.
Of course it's still not actually called MI6.

#9 perdogg

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 11:28 PM

SIS is mentioned in The Man With Golden Gun, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Octopussy, and Thunderball. It is probably mentioned in You Only Live Twice, The mentions appeared to be in the 3rd person, not first-person plural.

Edited by perdogg, 08 May 2012 - 11:28 PM.


#10 Dustin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:45 AM

SIS is mentioned in The Man With Golden Gun, On Her Majesty's Secret Service, Octopussy, and Thunderball. It is probably mentioned in You Only Live Twice, The mentions appeared to be in the 3rd person, not first-person plural.


You mean SIS appears, but it's not meant to be the designation of Bond's Secret Service? No, I don't think so. That second paragraph of "Bond of Bond Street" to me clearly indicates 'SIS' is meant to be the official designation of what Fleming previously always referred to as 'Service' or 'Secret Service'.

'MI6' on the other hand apparently was seen as a code name that wasn't official during the decades between WWII and the moment the existence of the SIS was officially acknowledged. Supposedly those 'in-the-know' didn't use it. I believe there's a paragraph or two about this in Forsyth's THE JACKAL, although he mocks this and other intelligence scurrililty by every cabby in town being aware of the significance of a certain address in London.

#11 marktmurphy

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:56 AM

'MI6' on the other hand apparently was seen as a code name that wasn't official during the decades between WWII and the moment the existence of the SIS was officially acknowledged. Supposedly those 'in-the-know' didn't use it.


That's still true; it's not called MI6.

#12 Dustin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:29 AM


'MI6' on the other hand apparently was seen as a code name that wasn't official during the decades between WWII and the moment the existence of the SIS was officially acknowledged. Supposedly those 'in-the-know' didn't use it.


That's still true; it's not called MI6.


I suspected it but cannot claim to be in-the-know.

On a related note, I wonder why the SIS homepage doesn't feature a 'SHOP'? They have a nice crest and, while the entire logo is a bit pedestrian in my view, could doubtlessly sell a zillion pencils, coffee mugs, t-shirts, polos, sweatshirts, legal pads and baseball caps. At the same time they'd open up a whole new range of practically impenetrable cover uniform for field personnel, as an intelligence officer would hardly be so bold as to wear the badge of his/her service in public. Or at all. Genius.

Let's face it, Britain's in the midst of a serious recession and needs the money. Badly. Needs must, so the SIS should do its national duty and sell merchandise. The actual business could be sourced out, to China or some other country of interest. And the profits would help finance all kinds of less-than-shining-bright-white operations.

Think about it...

#13 perdogg

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:57 PM

"As your readers will have learned from earlier issues, a senior officer of the Ministry of Defence, Commander James Bond...is missing" (Chapter 12 - Obit - "You Only Live Twice").

"M.G. writes I was happy and proud to serve Commander Bond...past three years at the Ministry of Defence" (ibid)


“Two weeks before…from Station S to the Secret Service to M, who was then and is today head of this adjunct to the British Defence Ministries” (Casino Royale – Chapter 2 – Dossier for M)
“Afternoon Sergeant…This is Commander Bond of the Ministry of Defence” (Diamonds Are Forever – Chapter 3 – Hot ice)

"And if I [Bond] told you I'm from the Ministry of Defence?" (Property of a Lady - "Octopussy and the Living Daylights")

Edited by perdogg, 24 May 2012 - 11:09 PM.


#14 Dustin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:37 AM

Yes?

#15 perdogg

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:15 AM

Sorry I sort of messed up the posting. I was trying to list all reference in the Fleming Bond novels that would confirm he works for the MoD:

1. Casino Royale - Chapter 2 "Dossier for M" - "Two weeks before, this memorandum had gone from Station S of the Secret Service to M, who was then and is today head of this adjunct to the British Defence Ministries."

2. Moonraker - Chapter 1 - "Secret Paper work" - "Loelia Ponsonby, Pricipal Secretary in the Ministry of Defence"

3. Moonraker - Chapter 4 - "The 'Shiner' - "Admiril Sir M -M-:something at the Ministry of Defence".

4. Moonraker - Chapter 4 - "The 'Shiner' - "Commander James Bond ...something at the Ministry of Defence".

5. Diamonds Are Forever - Chapter 3 -"Hot Ice" - "Afternoon, Sergeant..This is Commander Bond of the Ministry of Defence"

6. Thunderball - Chapter 1 - "Take it Easy, Mr Bond" - "That's not what the MO [Medical Officier] thinks". A Medical officier is a doctor in the British Army or Royal Navy.

7. The Spy Who Loved Me - Chapter 15 - "The Writing On My Heart" - "..you can get me [Bond]..c/o Ministry of Defence"

8. On Her Majesty's Secret Service - Chapter 6 - "Bond of Bond Street" - Bond said..."I am from the Ministry of Defence"

9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service - Chapter 8 - "Fancy cover" - "..Bond was employed by the Ministry of Defence."

10. On Her Majesty's Secret Service - Chapter 18 - "The Man from fish and AG" - "..respect those of the Ministry of Defence." Mi s telling the Ministry that he is subjected to the OSA.

11. You only Live Twice - See Above

12. You only Live Twice - See above

13. The Man with the Golden Gun - two references to the Ministry of Defence in the first chaper.

14. The Property of a Lady - Bond tells the man at Sotherby's that he is from the Ministry of Defence.

#16 Dustin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:31 AM

Oh yes, sure. The MoD was Fleming's personal way to describe his outfit, part euphemism, part pseudo-cover. Those in-the-know are either aware of the truth or at least know better than to ask 'Ministry of Defence? How interesting, please tell us more!'

On a related note, I wonder if people like Fleming, Deighton and le Carré - who all had to sign the Official Secrets Act in one function or other - were forbidden to use actual departments and designations (for a time at least), while other writers not involved with the intelligence world could happily use "MI6", "SIS", or "MI5"?

#17 perdogg

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:35 AM

Can we agree that the Fleming Bond did not work for SIS? If I recall correctly. SIS is part of the Foreign Ministry, correct?

When Hugh Trevor-Roper wrote his epic on the Third Reich it had to be cleared by British Intelligence prior to publication/

#18 Dustin

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:49 AM

Can we agree that the Fleming Bond did not work for SIS?


Erm, no.

Sorry, but I've already stated my point somewhere above. Bond's working for the Secret Service, which in turn in Fleming's world is described as being under the auspices of the MoD. Later - from TB onwards - Fleming also used the official designation SIS for the Secret Service, meaning in fact both times the same organisation Bond is working for.

If you choose to get a different impression - OK, be my guest, it's all the same to me. But I'm afraid I won't be able to agree.

#19 perdogg

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:06 AM

okay.

Edited by perdogg, 25 May 2012 - 11:16 AM.