14 replies to this topic

[Pierce - Daniel]

I don't get it. M, Mathis a d Mr. White seemed convinced that Vesper somehow died for Bond, but surely died because shecouldnt live with thereof on betraying Bond.....right? Can you really say she committed suicide in a bid to save Bonds life?

[MattofSteel]

CR = heartbreaking moment where she essentially 'kills' herself, shamed by betrayal. QOS = incomplete, partially incoherent script.

One could argue she self-eliminated due to being so in love with Bond and genuinely concerned for him that she realized his returned feelings would be a liability to his profession. Sort of like Lois realizing she can't date Superman and take him away from the rest of the world. But that's ridiculous, of course, since Bond had already quit by that point.

[Captain Tightpants]

I don't get it. M, Mathis a d Mr. White seemed convinced that Vesper somehow died for Bond, but surely died because shecouldnt live with thereof on betraying Bond.....right? Can you really say she committed suicide in a bid to save Bonds life?

Vesper knew just how powerful Quantum was, and she knew how they operated - after all, they extorted her into working for them. She also knew that Bond genuinely felt something for her. And she knew that as long as she was alive, she was a means to an end. Quantum could use her to control Bond; Mr. White said Quantum were angling for just such an outcome. She recognised that Bond was a decent person despite her distaste for his line of work and she did not want to see him under Quantum's thrall. She killed herself because she knew it would sever the connection between Bond and Quantum - and if Bond blamed Quantum for putting Vesper in a position where she would die (either by her own hand or someone else's), then Bond would be forever beyond Quantum's reach. Indeed, it would give him motive for tracking them down and destroying them. Vesper's death made Bond incorruptible.

[Pierce - Daniel]

Wow, good answer captain tightpans (if that is your real name, which I doubt), MattofSteel, I take it your not a QOS fan, but your post makes no sense, as it is M at the end of Casino Royale who says that Vesper died for him is it not. but I thought the whole 'she died for you' stuff had to do with a deal she brokered with Mr White the night Bond got tortured, dosent M say that?

[SecretAgentFan]

Difficult thing. Obviously, Vesper did not really die for Bond - she did not catch a bullet for him or something like that. If he could have opened the elevator cage she probably wouldn´t have resisted. But she clearly was deeply ashamed for having betrayed him so badly. She must have known that this would have been... well, a terrible strain on their relationship. Also, she must have been deeply afraid of Quantum, also for giving up Mr.White. And her "boyfriend" and what she did for him must have been another part of her thought process.

IMO, it´s mostly shame. And, as others have pointed out, one can only interpret the "she died for you"-claim as taking herself out of the equation.

[Captain Tightpants]

Also, she must have been deeply afraid of Quantum, also for giving up Mr.White. And her "boyfriend" and what she did for him must have been another part of her thought process.

A lot of Vesper's scenes showed she was particularly insightful. I don't think she was so much afraid of Quantum as she was able to grasp just how extensive they were, even if she only dealt with two or three people. She knew that in order for them to find her - and to have her assigned to Bond - they had to have a lot of powerful people. Even the early scenes on the train where she is so dismissive of Bond take on a new layer of meaning; at first glance, she seems unimpressed by him, but upon closer examination, she's trying to protect him from Quantum (even then, having just met him) by distancing herself from him.

[Matt_13]

I don't get it. M, Mathis a d Mr. White seemed convinced that Vesper somehow died for Bond, but surely died because shecouldnt live with thereof on betraying Bond.....right? Can you really say she committed suicide in a bid to save Bonds life?

Vesper knew just how powerful Quantum was, and she knew how they operated - after all, they extorted her into working for them. She also knew that Bond genuinely felt something for her. And she knew that as long as she was alive, she was a means to an end. Quantum could use her to control Bond; Mr. White said Quantum were angling for just such an outcome. She recognised that Bond was a decent person despite her distaste for his line of work and she did not want to see him under Quantum's thrall. She killed herself because she knew it would sever the connection between Bond and Quantum - and if Bond blamed Quantum for putting Vesper in a position where she would die (either by her own hand or someone else's), then Bond would be forever beyond Quantum's reach. Indeed, it would give him motive for tracking them down and destroying them. Vesper's death made Bond incorruptible.

Wow...good one.

[Miles Miservy]

I don't get it. M, Mathis a d Mr. White seemed convinced that Vesper somehow died for Bond, but surely died because shecouldnt live with thereof on betraying Bond.....right? Can you really say she committed suicide in a bid to save Bonds life?

Vesper knew just how powerful Quantum was, and she knew how they operated - after all, they extorted her into working for them. She also knew that Bond genuinely felt something for her. And she knew that as long as she was alive, she was a means to an end. Quantum could use her to control Bond; Mr. White said Quantum were angling for just such an outcome. She recognised that Bond was a decent person despite her distaste for his line of work and she did not want to see him under Quantum's thrall. She killed herself because she knew it would sever the connection between Bond and Quantum - and if Bond blamed Quantum for putting Vesper in a position where she would die (either by her own hand or someone else's), then Bond would be forever beyond Quantum's reach. Indeed, it would give him motive for tracking them down and destroying them. Vesper's death made Bond incorruptible.

Bond was in love w/Vesper Lynd right up until the minute he got on the phone with the bank manager. That was the very moment she'd become "one of THEM". If she hadn't had killed herself, he'd probably have done it anyway. He'd all but said he would when the guy w/one eye threatened to kill her. I can only assume that his attempts at her resuscitation was an effort to get information from her. "The job is finished." he said; "The bitch is dead." he said. He'd even gone a step further in the beginning of QOS by telling M that he wasn't about to go chasing after the boyfriend; that he wasn't important & neither was SHE. 007 is a man of many capabilities. I do not however, feel that forgiveness is one of them. I don't think her death affected Bond's well being at all.

[Captain Tightpants]

Bond was in love w/Vesper Lynd right up until the minute he got on the phone with the bank manager. That was the very moment she'd become "one of THEM".

You don't just suddenly fall out of love with someone. It takes time. It can happen faster than falling in love, but it doesn't happen overnight.

If she hadn't had killed herself, he'd probably have done it anyway. He'd all but said he would when the guy w/one eye threatened to kill her.

True. But Bond clearly wanted to know why Vesper suddenly broke character and betrayed him.

I can only assume that his attempts at her resuscitation was an effort to get information from her.

I don't think Bond even knew what he was doing then. He'd clearly tried to save her from the elevator; if he was as upset as you claim, he would have just left her to die. Is she any more dead if Bond shoots her than if she drowns in the elevator?

"The job is finished." he said; "The bitch is dead." he said.

Which is not an appropriate reaction to the death of someone you feel genuine emotions for. Bond was hurting - both at the betrayal and his failure to see it coming - and over-compensating.

He'd even gone a step further in the beginning of QOS by telling M that he wasn't about to go chasing after the boyfriend; that he wasn't important & neither was SHE.

And yet, he told Camille that his interest in Dominic Greene was that "among other things, he tried to kill a friend of mine" and confessed to losing a loved one. He also interrogated Dominic Greene about Quantum and specifically asked about Yusuf Kabira. For someone who was compeltely unimportant, Bond went halfway around the world - La Paz to Kazan, over 13,000km - to find him.

007 is a man of many capabilities. I do not however, feel that forgiveness is one of them. I don't think her death affected Bond's well being at all.

And yet, nothing in my post had anything to do with Bond's wellbeing or state of mind. I said that Vesper killed herself so that Quantum could never influence him. Whether Bond felt anything for her after the betrayal was inconsequential; at the very least, Vesper knew Bond was intelligent enough to work out that she did it against her will, and would make it his mission to stop Quantum from using other innocent people. At the most, Bond would have some residual feelings for her and would go to the ends of the earth to to bring them to justice. And the knowledge that Vesper would not have betrayed him if she had the choice would gone a long way to soothe his feelings.

[larrythefatcat]

Very good insight on this topic. I feel that Bond definitely felt true emotion for Vesper, Vesper knew that Bond would probably not further a relationship with her after such betrayal and that Bond would go after Quantum (or at least Mr. White) no matter what which would most likely have lead to her assassination anyway. I think she saved Bond by using her death as a means to strengthen Bond's resolve toward the destruction of Quantum and, as stated above, make him incorruptible.

As for the "he tried to kill a friend of mine" line, that seems to be a reference to M. Vesper would definitely be among those "other things" though.

[byline]

Also, she must have been deeply afraid of Quantum, also for giving up Mr.White. And her "boyfriend" and what she did for him must have been another part of her thought process.

A lot of Vesper's scenes showed she was particularly insightful. I don't think she was so much afraid of Quantum as she was able to grasp just how extensive they were, even if she only dealt with two or three people. She knew that in order for them to find her - and to have her assigned to Bond - they had to have a lot of powerful people. Even the early scenes on the train where she is so dismissive of Bond take on a new layer of meaning; at first glance, she seems unimpressed by him, but upon closer examination, she's trying to protect him from Quantum (even then, having just met him) by distancing herself from him.

Very good analysis. One could also argue that at this point, Vesper was still in love with her boyfriend and was singleminded in her resolve to save him, so she looked at Bond more as a puzzle she had to solve, rather than as someone she had to protect. But it's also clear that she valued others' lives and would not want him or anyone else to come to harm because of her. I think that in the beginning, she really believed that if she did her job, no one would have to die. But it slowly became clear to Vesper just how dangerous and far-reaching Quantum was, and I think she realized, as M said, that she was going to her death. There was little hope of her living, and if she did, that would place Bond in jeopardy because, even with her betrayal, Bond would still feel compelled to protect her.

Along with the points that you and others made, I also saw her suicide as an act of defiance; she knew she was going to die, so at least she died on her terms, not Quantum's. Still, a horrible choice to have to make.

[Messervy]

"The bitch is dead." he said. He'd even gone a step further in the beginning of QOS by telling M that he wasn't about to go chasing after the boyfriend; that he wasn't important & neither was SHE. 007 is a man of many capabilities. I do not however, feel that forgiveness is one of them. I don't think her death affected Bond's well being at all.

100% disagree with you.
When you don't feel anything for someone, you don't overact like Bond did ("the bitch is dead" is clearly a sign of someone wounded trying to cover his grief). You don't steal the picture of the boyfriend to get after the men who turned Vesper into who she eventually became. Etc.
Besides, dismissing Bond's genuine loss is dismissing one of the fundamentals of why Bond is Bond. The novel says it clearly: no more playing Indians; this is the real thing, real threat. Now Bond is hardened and out on a hunt. Vesper's death was the fire-lighter.

[robertcampbell]

I am confused about that angle myself and the explanation from "M" seemed forced and contrived.I wanted a sort of Hitchcock wallop at the last minutes where 007 would discover a more sinister and deadlier plot behind her death.The motivation was not that strong for Bond to be emotionally clamped and with the ensuing life he would lived-the boyfriend angle thing was a weak plot devise to carry Bond's violent paths ahead.

[Captain Tightpants]

Actually, the boyfriend subplot was a common tactic used in the Cold War to entrap enemy agents. It was called a 'honeytrap': an agent would befriend an operative working for the other side and start a relationship with them. At a critical point, the enemy agent would be blackmailed into doing the original agent's bidding - either by someone "threatening" the life of the original agent, or by the original agent threatening to expose their relationship to the enemy agent's commanders. Not wanting their friend/lover to die or have the relationship exposed, the enemy agent would then become a double agent.

[MattofSteel]

Wow, good answer captain tightpans (if that is your real name, which I doubt), MattofSteel, I take it your not a QOS fan, but your post makes no sense, as it is M at the end of Casino Royale who says that Vesper died for him is it not. but I thought the whole 'she died for you' stuff had to do with a deal she brokered with Mr White the night Bond got tortured, dosent M say that?

Tightpants' answer is essentially the same as mine, albeit drafted with considerably more detail. Bond's "Congratulations, you were right" at the end of QOS is a direct callback to the final CR scene where M points out Vesper was probably aware of her ultimate fate, and went through with her actions anyhow, due to the feelings she had for him. Characters' suggestions that she "died for him" or fell on some sword directly are misleading; the point I've always taken from QOS is that it's a far more complicated situation than any simple answer can do justice to, and that's the realization Bond ends up coming to. Very much in parallel to the film's theme of the greyed areas of espionage - good and evil, black and white, they don't exist. Bond gets his simple answer - she loved him - but learns to accept the complexities surrounding such a deceptively simple-sounding question.

All this potential is there and any of these opinions on Vesper are perfectly acceptable interpretations. But we'll never know for sure. I am a QOS fan, but I'm not going to blindly defend what was - admittedly from those involved - a very unfinished script.