23 replies to this topic

[iBond]

Now, I know that Elektra was the one who was behind the whole plot to kill her father and the damage she did to herself with the radiation and all, but was Renard all that innocent? Or was he just as bad to begin with? I mean, it makes me wonder if he really kidnapped her and changed her into some evil girl with revenge on her father, or if she planned the whole kidnapping and made it an excuse to have her father deliver the ransom money and blow himself up with the switched lapel pin? This is something that has kind of hung over my shoulder for a while. Because, remember when Elektra reveals to Bond her ear and the damage she caused to herself to make it seem real? "...And then, when he refused, I did it myself." Bond, "So, you, turned Renard."

I'm starting to think that it was all a set-up and she knew Renard well before the kidnapping took place. Thoughts?

Edited by iBond, 31 May 2011 - 11:14 AM.

[mttvolcano]

I think they were both conniving little @!&*!^$s

Edited by mttvolcano, 31 May 2011 - 03:41 PM.

[MajorB]

I think the idea was that she was already deeply angry with her father, and the kidnapping was a "lucky" event that gave her a way to exact revenge. She "turned" Renard to the extent that she seduced him into collaborating with her in a particular act of terrorism that served her needs. If they hadn't met, she would have come up with some scheme of her own. But they were both quite twisted--neither of them needed to be lured to the dark side of the Force.

[AMC Hornet]

...was Renard all that innocent? Or was he just as bad to begin with?

"Victor Zokas, aka Renard, the anarchist. His only goal is chaos."

Renard was already a terrorist and radical before he kidnapped Elektra. Elektra already had an axe to grind, given that she felt her father had only married her mother in order to seize control of her familiy's oil holdings. When Sir Robert took M's advice and tried to play a lomg game before paying the ransom, that was the last straw. Elektra said she'd always had a power over men (Bond included), and it was easy for her to seduce someone as unlovable as Renard. She didn't love him - she used him and he would do anything for her, as if nuking Istanbul for her benefit would be a final gesture of love and redemption.

They were both damaged goods, and although I almost feel sorry for Renard, I remember that he was a terrorist and a murderer, and should have been dead already.

It's all there in the script, or read the novelization. In chapter 15 Benson fleshes out Renard's backstory in a little more detail.

[iBond]

I think the idea was that she was already deeply angry with her father, and the kidnapping was a "lucky" event that gave her a way to exact revenge. She "turned" Renard to the extent that she seduced him into collaborating with her in a particular act of terrorism that served her needs. If they hadn't met, she would have come up with some scheme of her own. But they were both quite twisted--neither of them needed to be lured to the dark side of the Force.

Ah! Makes sense! I guess she thought of her father as an Englishman who just wanted to become rich for selfish reasons. Unless her mother is already dead which is why she says, "My father was nothing! His kingdom he stole from my mother..." And I agree with you, I think if it wasn't for Renard, she would have found some other way to carry with her plans.

[Mr. Blofeld]

I always wondered why an Eastern-European terrorist would have a French alias to go by...

[AMC Hornet]

I always wondered why an Eastern-European terrorist would have a French alias to go by...

From True Lies:

Fiezal: They call him [Aziz) 'the Sand Spider.'
Trilby: Why?
Fiezal: Probably because it sounds scary.

[Mr. Blofeld]

Probably because it sounds scary.

...except, how is it scary? That's like giving a vicious German warlord named Heinrich Schlien the alias "Pablo"; it doesn't make sense.

[iBond]

I always wondered why an Eastern-European terrorist would have a French alias to go by...

Good point. But I guess it could have been any name.

[AMC Hornet]

"Fox" in Russian is pronounced "zibidaya" - not as cinematically dramatic as the French "Renard."

I suppose they could have written in an explanation like:

"In the Russian underworld he is known as 'Zibidaya' - a very sick joke," followed by "What do you think, Luigi - does this 'Zibidaya' or 'Fox' Zokas have the resources to mount a salvage operation?"

It never occured to me to ponder why a Russian terrorist had a French crypto. According to Raymond Benson, he earned the (unwanted) nickname after a successful operation in Iran (do they even have foxes in Iran?). Perhaps, like Le Chiffre/Herr Nummer/Herr Zimmer, he's called "the Fox" in the language of whatever country he's working in, for or against.

On the other hand, this isn't even a plot point - just a script detail. I for one like it - it's better than Rowan Atkinson and "I shall be known as The Black Vegetable!"

[Miles Miservy]

"Fox" in Russian is pronounced "zibidaya" - not as cinematically dramatic as the French "Renard."

I suppose they could have written in an explanation like:

"In the Russian underworld he is known as 'Zibidaya' - a very sick joke," followed by "What do you think, Luigi - does this 'Zibidaya' or 'Fox' Zokas have the resources to mount a salvage operation?"

It never occured to me to ponder why a Russian terrorist had a French crypto. According to Raymond Benson, he earned the (unwanted) nickname after a successful operation in Iran (do they even have foxes in Iran?). Perhaps, like Le Chiffre/Herr Nummer/Herr Zimmer, he's called "the Fox" in the language of whatever country he's working in, for or against.

On the other hand, this isn't even a plot point - just a script detail. I for one like it - it's better than Rowan Atkinson and "I shall be known as The Black Vegetable!"


"Nigel Smallfawcett".... Now THERE's a name that intimidates!!!

Now, I know that Elektra was the one who was behind the whole plot to kill her father and the damage she did to herself with the radiation and all, but was Renard all that innocent? Or was he just as bad to begin with? I mean, it makes me wonder if he really kidnapped her and changed her into some evil girl with revenge on her father, or if she planned the whole kidnapping and made it an excuse to have her father deliver the ransom money and blow himself up with the switched lapel pin? This is something that has kind of hung over my shoulder for a while. Because, remember when Elektra reveals to Bond her ear and the damage she caused to herself to make it seem real? "...And then, when he refused, I did it myself." Bond, "So, you, turned Renard."

I'm starting to think that it was all a set-up and she knew Renard well before the kidnapping took place. Thoughts?

Electra was just a spoiled little brat & Renard was just a mediocre terrorist (even the KGB grew tired of him) that wound up being completely pu$$y-whipped.

[iBond]

I have the sudden urge to watch this film again. It's been a while.

[JimmyBond]

I have the sudden urge to watch this film again. It's been a while.

Give it some time, that urge will pass.

[iBond]

Well, considering that it's my favorite Brosnan film, I doubt it hehe.

[JimmyBond]

Well, considering that it's my favorite Brosnan film, I doubt it hehe.

Give that some time too, it will pass.

[iBond]

Hehehe, man you really dislike this movie don't you?

[JimmyBond]

It's the only Bond movie I actively dislike, to me there is no redeeming value to it. It's a joyless soulless movie that only ever takes off during the teaser. It's in this sequence that the film knows how to be a Bond movie, after that it's just a mess.

[iBond]

I would have to disagree. I quite enjoyed it and found the story to be interesting and entertaining. Much more so than Die Another Day.

[DaveBond21]

Yeah, I like TWINE. Mainly the PTS which I believe is the best of them all.

And was voted as the 2nd best of all the Bond moments by the British public in 2002.

[iBond]

And was voted as the 2nd best of all the Bond moments by the British public in 2002.

That's awesome! Yeah, it was a fun PTS.

[Donovan]

Renard started it. He was born short and he hated the world for it.

[Captain Tightpants]

I would have liked it if they'd fleshed Renard out a little more. The film spent most of its time building him up as the Big Bad, so he could have done with a bit more background than "his only goal is chaos". He worked freelance for the KGB, so instead of the briefing with the holographic head and bad science (the medulla oblongata is at the base of the brain), they could have done one where Renard was painted as contracted to do the work that even the KGB found distasteful until they cut him loose and he started indulging in anarchy for anarchy's sake. They could also explain why a Russian terrorist adopted a French pseudonym. I think the original script mentioned something about Renard considering his attacks to be works of art, and so adopted a name that invoked the likes of Renoir and Monet because he considered himself a master artist..

[DaveBond21]

I would have liked it if they'd fleshed Renard out a little more. The film spent most of its time building him up as the Big Bad, so he could have done with a bit more background than "his only goal is chaos". He worked freelance for the KGB, so instead of the briefing with the holographic head and bad science (the medulla oblongata is at the base of the brain), they could have done one where Renard was painted as contracted to do the work that even the KGB found distasteful until they cut him loose and he started indulging in anarchy for anarchy's sake. They could also explain why a Russian terrorist adopted a French pseudonym. I think the original script mentioned something about Renard considering his attacks to be works of art, and so adopted a name that invoked the likes of Renoir and Monet because he considered himself a master artist..

Yes, you're right about Renard. They came up with the idea of a character who can't feel pain but didn't use this fact enough in the film. Bond didn't get to hurt him enough. He should have even lost a limb before the end and kept coming for more.

[Captain Tightpants]

It has nothing to do with not feeling pain. Even if they had done what you'd suggested, Renard would still suffer from a lack of base motivation.