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#1 Golden Claw

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 05:13 PM

I don't know if this topic has been raised before, but it may be a valid point. To quote ACE in his extensive review of TLD, "Timothy Dalton, the knight in shining armour, would've looked well against dark greys and crimsons, not the pasty swirls of a Monet". Both TLD & LTK are so bright, gaudy and colourful that Timmy's serious, scowling, lupine Bond looks out of place. Both his films needed the atmosphere and colours like the ones used on TWINE (yes, it does look quite dark) and CR. The ambience of both Timmy's movies looks right out of some Rodge movie like TSWLM.

Do you feel that bright colours in TLD & LTK might've affected what are essentially serious movies? Would it have made a difference if they had a grim, shady ambience as in TWINE & CR?

#2 Binyamin

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:45 PM

This is a good point, and others have mentioned it when they talk about "LTK looking like it belongs on TV." Living Daylights was filmed like a Moore movie. They needed to take a different visual approach, definitely.

#3 The Shark

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:07 PM

LTK could have been improved no doubt, but TLD I think is a different beast. There's a lot of dark, chiaroscuro tones in the Prague and Vienna scenes in particular (not to mention the almost apocalyptic shot of the Afghan sunset). Alec Mills did a fine here, IYAM. Clearly they had the right cameramen, equipment, and rapport with the DP. The later is crucial with any production department.

GE and QOS had the finest cinematography in the last 25 years, IMO. Look-wise, CR or TWINE don't do anything for me.

#4 00 Brosnan

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:38 PM

LTK could have been improved no doubt, but TLD I think is a different beast. There's a lot of dark, chiaroscuro tones in the Prague and Vienna scenes in particular (not to mention the almost apocalyptic shot of the Afghan sunset). Alec Mills did a fine here, IYAM. Clearly they had the right cameramen, equipment, and rapport with the DP. The later is crucial with any production department.


I agree with pretty much everything Shark says here. I think everything mood/color wise works w/ Dalton in TLD. However, I agree that LTK could no doubt have been improved. In my opinion, LTK gives off that cheap made-for-TV look.

#5 LTK_(1989)

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:38 PM

Never has LTK given me a made-for-TV vibe.... none of Glen's films have.... I really am nonplussed at this frequent, and tired, argument that really holds little credence. In fact, I find it funny that TWINE has been brought up as an alternative example since it is the only Bond film that has ever given me a made-for-TV vibe, mainly because of how insipid Apted frames a scene.

There is definitely some visual carry-over from the previous Roger Moore era though, no doubt due to the fact that TLD and LTK have the same director and crew, and certainly a lot of bright coloring, no doubt due to the attractive globe-trotting locals of Gibralter, Tangiers, Florida, and Central America.

Consequently, there are also plenty of literal "dark" moments in Dalton's two films. The first scenes of Bond in Bratislava during Koskov's "defection" are very dark and murky -and that is a significantly long sequence- the proceeding scenes in Bratislava are also not bright and colorful, just shot in daylight; Bond and Kara's escape into Austria can hardly be classified as "colorful," the cloud-covered, snow-spraying escape is a gloomy day-time sequence. Also, Saunders' death occurred at night, Bond and Kara had to escape the Soviet airbase amidst darkness, and Bond's final attack on Whitaker's compound is a shadowy nighttime endeavor.

LTK too has some clearly visually dark scenes. Leiter is killed in a darkened warehouse - Bond's encounter in that same warehouse is perhaps darker still (we need some kind of light measurement there to be sure). Also, the film features some very low lighting as Bond sneaks around the Wavecrest and into Lupe's room; the scene with Bond and Pam at the dive bar is very dark as is the proceeding scenes with Bond and Pam on their getaway boat; Bond's entire assassination attempt is shot in heavy shadows as is the proceeding ninja fight, drugging of Bond, and raid on the hut scenes; the scene where the Wavecrest crashes into the dock and Krest's subsequent death are also quite dark.

I do not see any way around it: there just are a numerous amount of scenes that are visually dark in TLD and LTK.

#6 The Shark

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 09:40 PM

Never has LTK given me a made-for-TV vibe....


I think Gravity could write a thesis on this, but there are many examples. Such as how the camera almost always follows a character moving around the room, lots of amateurish framing and use of mise en scène, high key lighting (a staple of TV productions - TND also suffers from this), dated film stock, unimaginative angles, inconsistent and odd in-camera effects (such as the 'halo' - or diffuse glow for Pam when she shoots Dario) etc...

That said, TWINE is hardly much of an improvement, even if does look glossier.

#7 LTK_(1989)

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 01:03 AM


Never has LTK given me a made-for-TV vibe....


I think Gravity could write a thesis on this, but there are many examples. Such as how the camera almost always follows a character moving around the room, lots of amateurish framing and use of mise en scène, high key lighting (a staple of TV productions - TND also suffers from this), dated film stock, unimaginative angles, inconsistent and odd in-camera effects (such as the 'halo' - or diffuse glow for Pam when she shoots Dario) etc...

That said, TWINE is hardly much of an improvement, even if does look glossier.


Those are a lot of vague terms: "camera almost always follows a character moving around the room" - so does Hawks on The Big Sleep (1946); "amateurish framing and use of mise en scene, dated film stock, unimaginative angels" - all of that is relative in the first place, but one could point to a lot of films made during the Golden Age of Hollywood that include unimaginative angels, bland mise en scene, etc. too and that was before TV movies even existed.

I am just not convinced that LTK looks like a TV movie and I do not believe that there is some kind of objective way to prove that, forcing one to accept it as a fact; let's just say that.

In any event, we are straying off topic - the main point of my post was that TLD and LTK do contain more than just bright, colorful scenes.

Edited by LTK_(1989), 03 May 2011 - 01:06 AM.


#8 The Shark

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 02:24 AM

Those are a lot of vague terms: "camera almost always follows a character moving around the room" - so does Hawks on The Big Sleep (1946); "amateurish framing and use of mise en scene, dated film stock, unimaginative angels" - all of that is relative in the first place, but one could point to a lot of films made during the Golden Age of Hollywood that include unimaginative angels, bland mise en scene, etc. too and that was before TV movies even existed.


I'm not denying that. My point is, that by 1989 to the present day, the film making looks generic, cheap, and dated. That is my reference point. If you can find a similarity between that and a Hawks picture from 42 years prior, you're only only clarifying my argument. LTK's direction was retrogressive for the Bond series.

I am just not convinced that LTK looks like a TV movie and I do not believe that there is some kind of objective way to prove that, forcing one to accept it as a fact; let's just say that.


I'm not trying to convince you or force you to accept anything. I'm merely putting across my evaluation on LTK's production values - as a counter to your own. Purely subjective.

#9 Miles Miservy

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:42 PM

I didn't quite get the pink shirt Sanchez was wearing the day after Bond tried to assasinate hime. Who's idea was that?

#10 MajorB

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 07:23 PM

I've always thought Glen's films had a flatter, more "realistic," less dramatic look than those of some of his predecessors--certainly more so than TSWLM and MR. It was a breath of fresh air in FYEO, but as the films went on, I began to tire of it. And given the number of less-glam locations in LTK, I think a richer visual style might have made the film feel a little less down-market to me.

#11 AMC Hornet

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 12:00 AM

The 'halo' around Pam's head when she shoots Dario was provided by a yellow circle painted on the wall behind her. As she was wearing an acolyte's robe, to Dario's coked-up mind she looked like an angel. If the image was slightly fuzzy (and the incidental music ethereal) it was to give us the impression of what Dario saw.

I don't mind all the colourful, colourful colours in Bond movies. If I'd ever thought about it before I would have realized that that's one of the elements of the series that I've always appreciated and looked forward to.

QoS is supposed to be a 'dark' movie, yet apart from the Tosca sequence we have lush, sunny Haiti and sunbaked deserts. I don't think I would like it or LTK if they were consistently monochrome.

#12 Brian Flagg

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 11:30 AM

I disagree with the hamfisted notion that dark-themed films require dark cinematography. I'm clearly in the minority, as we live in an age where most every film is digitally colored in that putrid blue-grey Saving Private Ryan/Harry Potter/Shia Lebeouf/Teen Vampire style of cinema. Talk about a trend that's already dated!

The idea of filming a downbeat movie in a highly contrasting lighting style is nothing new (even if it wasn't the intention in LTK.) Hasn't anyone here seen Leave Her to Heaven? This is a 1945 Noir that flaunted its garish, Technicolor tones all the while telling the story of a seriously demented, psychopathic dame (the gorgeous Gene Tierney; look her up, kids).

#13 sthgilyadgnivileht

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 02:37 PM

I disagree with the hamfisted notion that dark-themed films require dark cinematography. I'm clearly in the minority, as we live in an age where most every film is digitally colored in that putrid blue-grey Saving Private Ryan/Harry Potter/Shia Lebeouf/Teen Vampire style of cinema. Talk about a trend that's already dated!

What I like about TLD in particular is at least the film looks like it was actually shot on film. It's devoid of the 'pastel' and artificial look I think some of the later films had.

#14 Mr_Wint

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 03:49 PM

Do you feel that bright colours in TLD & LTK might've affected what are essentially serious movies? Would it have made a difference if they had a grim, shady ambience as in TWINE & CR?

To begin with, I don't even agree with the statements you make in the question. Why would anyone think CR had a dark and grim visual look?

#15 00 Brosnan

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Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:58 PM

I disagree with the hamfisted notion that dark-themed films require dark cinematography.


I agree with you.

#16 iBond

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:05 PM

I don't know if this topic has been raised before, but it may be a valid point. To quote ACE in his extensive review of TLD, "Timothy Dalton, the knight in shining armour, would've looked well against dark greys and crimsons, not the pasty swirls of a Monet". Both TLD & LTK are so bright, gaudy and colourful that Timmy's serious, scowling, lupine Bond looks out of place. Both his films needed the atmosphere and colours like the ones used on TWINE (yes, it does look quite dark) and CR. The ambience of both Timmy's movies looks right out of some Rodge movie like TSWLM.

Do you feel that bright colours in TLD & LTK might've affected what are essentially serious movies? Would it have made a difference if they had a grim, shady ambience as in TWINE & CR?


I can see your point. But maybe Glen wanted to keep it the same throughout his pictures. I would have to say though that Licence to Kill did have a different color tone than The Living Daylights. It was more gritty then the previous films he directed. However, the important thing is the story and less about the tone of the film in my opinion.

Edited by iBond, 12 June 2011 - 05:07 PM.


#17 doublenoughtspy

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:26 PM

I love the palette of TLD and I think it works well in the film.

I mean how would you shoot the bright desert of Morocco and make it look dark?

As Shark mentions, Prague and Vienna are plenty dark. Just as Terence Young filmed the helicopter chase in FRWL to "open up" what was a very train-bound, claustrophobic film up to that point, Daylights alternates dark and light to achieve a nice balance.

Think about the darkest, from Bond's point of view, point in the series - Tracy's death. Shot against the bright Portuguese coast. The contrast makes the moment that much more striking.

#18 iBond

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:48 PM

Think about the darkest, from Bond's point of view, point in the series - Tracy's death. Shot against the bright Portuguese coast. The contrast makes the moment that much more striking.


Very good point!